Breach of Impartiality Rules?

[jnjkerbin]

I have been trying to book a journey from A to B. There are two sets of fares with different routing options:

1. Via London (More Expensive)
2. Via C (Less Expensive)

If it matters, these fares are set by different operators. Having shopped around a number of different TOC websites, and having in all cases specified via C in the search, I have so far only been able to find one TOC and two 3rd party websites which offer the cheaper fares via C. All other websites (including those of both TOCS which set the two different fares) fail to display the less expensive tickets and advise that no tickets are available via C.

This does not appear to be limited to a single day or even a single route (there are multiple stations at both ends of the journey that should offer both fares but do not).

Is this something that is worth chasing up?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Why the secrecy? It isn’t a loophole which could be closed if the TOCs found out about it and people would have more of an idea what you are talking about and possibly why it is occurring if you stated the tickets involved.

 

[OwlMan]

Without knowing the dates, times and places input to the website it is impossible to advise of reasons why it does not show these fares.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Apologies, journey is [EDITED] on the 27/12 (although it seems to affect all dates) and the tickets in question were [EDITED] fares.

 

[AlterEgo]

Websites are not impartial points of sale so there is no breach of the impartial retailing principles here.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Websites are not impartial points of sale so there is no breach of the impartial retailing principles here.

Do you have a source for that? I don't think TOC websites need to be impartial. But 3rd party sites, e.g. Trainline, RedSpottedHanky, Raileasy, TrainGenius, TicketClever etc. are I believe obligated by the 3rd Party Investor License they hold to be impartial.

I think the problem the OP is having with the VIA BARNHAM fare is that he/she wants to go via London (indeed to get to Sevenoaks via Barnham, the obvious route involves a change at London Bridge), but the electronic fares data that must be used by journey planners contains a hidden restriction barring VIA BARNHAM fares from being used via London or via various stations in the London area, Orpington being a relevant one here. Very interesting twist on whether it might be a breach of impartiality, though. I don't know the answer.

 

[John @ home]

Tickets routed "Via Barnham" often have very good value fares, but significantly slower journeys. Some websites prioritise the fastest journeys, so I'm not surprised you don't find the "Via Barnham" fares everywhere.

The best site I have found for showing longer journeys but cheaper fares is trainsplit.com, which allows you to set several "Via" points. If you prefer to use a train company's web site, try the mixing deck version of TPE's website at http://tickets.tpexpress.co.uk/tpe/en/journeyplanning/mixingdeck.

I've often used "Via Barnham" tickets, and I've never encountered any difficulties.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you have a source for that? I don't think TOC websites need to be impartial. But 3rd party sites, e.g. Trainline, RedSpottedHanky, Raileasy, TrainGenius, TicketClever etc. are I believe obligated by the 3rd Party Investor License they hold to be impartial.

I think the problem the OP is having with the VIA BARNHAM fare is that he/she wants to go via London (indeed to get to Sevenoaks via Barnham, the obvious route involves a change at London Bridge), but the electronic fares data that must be used by journey planners contains a hidden restriction barring VIA BARNHAM fares from being used via London or via various stations in the London area, Orpington being a relevant one here. Very interesting twist on whether it might be a breach of impartiality, though. I don't know the answer.

How does that work for third party retailers which proactively offer split tickets in a way which is clearly not impartial? You wouldn’t be able to offer that at a ticket office.

 

[yorkie]

https://www.atoctravelagents.org/third-party-retailing/third-party-licences

“Impartial Retailing” means the general obligation on the Agent to act in a non-
discriminatory way between Operators. In practical terms, this requires the Agent to
offer the full range of fares applicable to the customer’s requirements, without favouring
any particular Operator(s) and “impartial” and “impartially” shall be construed
accordingly;

The rules applying to ticket offices go beyond that definition.

 

[Starmill]

Apologies, journey is Dorchester South - Sevenoaks on the 27/12 (although it seems to affect all dates) and the tickets in question were Via Barnham fares.

Go to tickets.tpexpress.co.uk and input these journey details as required:


Press search and you will see only some expensive fares at £70+. Head to the box on the left circled in red that says "Show me":


Then select show slower routes, and then check the box that mentions travel via Barnham:


Click update et voila, the cheapest fares appear, from £26:

 

[jnjkerbin]

I think the problem the OP is having with the VIA BARNHAM fare is that he/she wants to go via London (indeed to get to Sevenoaks via Barnham, the obvious route involves a change at London Bridge), but the electronic fares data that must be used by journey planners contains a hidden restriction barring VIA BARNHAM fares from being used via London or via various stations in the London area, Orpington being a relevant one here. Very interesting twist on whether it might be a breach of impartiality, though. I don't know the answer.

That's correct. Whilst the Via Barnham fares are probably not meant to be used via London, they most certainly are valid that way. The question of whether the text of the restriction needs to be more specific (e.g. Not Via London, or as the case is for some similar fares Via Edenbridge/Polegate) is not the question here. By TOCs placing these hidden restrictions on tickets, it makes it impossible for journey planners which only permit one via point to show these fares, and therefore makes them impossible to purchase from most TOCs' (bar TPE's) websites.

My argument would be that if my understanding that TOC websites are required to be impartial is correct, then they are failing to offer the cheapest fare for the journey concerned.

Go to tickets.tpexpress.co.uk and input these journey details as required:

That was the one TOC website I found that did sell these fares, and where I bought from in the end!

 

[yorkie]

That's correct. Whilst the Via Barnham fares are probably not meant to be used via London, they most certainly are valid that way. The question of whether the text of the restriction needs to be more specific (e.g. Not Via London, or as the case is for some similar fares Via Edenbridge/Polegate) is not the question here. By TOCs placing these hidden restrictions on tickets, it makes it impossible for journey planners which only permit one via point to show these fares, and therefore makes them impossible to purchase from most TOCs' (bar TPE's) websites.

My argument would be that if my understanding that TOC websites are required to be impartial is correct, then they are failing to offer the cheapest fare for the journey concerned.

They will either change it to 'via baa not ldn' or make some other changes to prevent travel via London. If there is no easy way to do it, they could re route the tickets to be even more restrictive, or withraw the tickets entirely.

It won't achieve anything, all it will do is prevent a tiny number of brave passengers from exploiting the loophole.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Indeed it seems there are different definitions of "impartial retailing" with some leeway for different interpretations. I'm not sure why the Worldline WebTIS journey planner (behind the TPE site) is allowing that route; my best guess is that there's some easement it's erroneously applying.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed it seems there are different definitions of "impartial retailing" with some leeway for different interpretations. I'm not sure why the Worldline WebTIS journey planner (behind the TPE site) is allowing that route; my best guess is that there's some easement it's erroneously applying.

As far as I can tell TransPennine Expres does not allow tickets routed via Barnham on itineraries via London, if that's what you mean.

 

[[.n]]

That's correct. Whilst the Via Barnham fares are probably not meant to be used via London, they most certainly are valid that way. The question of whether the text of the restriction needs to be more specific (e.g. Not Via London, or as the case is for some similar fares Via Edenbridge/Polegate) is not the question here. By TOCs placing these hidden restrictions on tickets, it makes it impossible for journey planners which only permit one via point to show these fares, and therefore makes them impossible to purchase from most TOCs' (bar TPE's) websites.

My argument would be that if my understanding that TOC websites are required to be impartial is correct, then they are failing to offer the cheapest fare for the journey concerned.



That was the one TOC website I found that did sell these fares, and where I bought from in the end!

The SWR website sells it

As it happens I buy via Barnham tickets a lot to start from Dorchester!

 

[jnjkerbin]

As far as I can tell TransPennine Expres does not allow tickets routed via Barnham on itineraries via London, if that's what you mean.

It does at least allow you to purchase one though.

The SWR website sells it

As it happens I buy via Barnham tickets a lot to start from Dorchester!

What via point do you use, as I couldn't get one to show!

 

[Paul Kelly]

As far as I can tell TransPennine Expres does not allow tickets routed via Barnham on itineraries via London, if that's what you mean

yes you're right of course, sorry - lack of attention to detail on my part and also reading too much into the OP! The itineraries via Redhill and Tonbridge meet the requirements perfectly.

 

[[.n]]

It does at least allow you to purchase one though.



What via point do you use, as I couldn't get one to show!

Just do the normal search for DCH to SEV

When you get the results back, on the left click the further options menu, and also click the hide slower trains, and it gives you a via Barnham

 

[Starmill]

What via point do you use, as I couldn't get one to show!

Rather than using a via point you search by the details of the ticket you want. I just explained how to do it on Webtis. It is achieved in different ways on other sites e.g. trainline you have to click here for slower journeys.

 

[Wallsendmag]

If you want an awkward journey best bet is to use NRE for a handoff to the TOC site

 

[maniacmartin]

If you want an awkward journey best bet is to use NRE for a handoff to the TOC site

I've tried that in the past for a variety of simple journeys and the journey details always get lost during the handoff. Maybe things are better now?

As to the original question, I've often thought many of these routes could be better described if there was a route "NOT VIA LONDON Z1-6" which I think is what Southern intend with their pricing.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Horley seems to work as a via point to get most sites to bring up the Via Barnham fares, without the need for any other tricks.

 

[alistairlees]

That's correct. Whilst the Via Barnham fares are probably not meant to be used via London, they most certainly are valid that way.

No, they are not valid via London.

 

[RJ]

Why are people are so keen on drawing attention to the Barnham fare's validity via London?

Invalidating this routing is a job that has been half done for several years as I've seen in RJIS that London is a banned location for route Barnham tickets in the fares data and I'm sure an entry to the easements document will see it closed down properly!

 

[Killingworth]

There are so many anomalies. I use TPE from Dore & Totley to Barnetby quite often, but recently had cause to change there for Market Rasen. It was several pounds cheaper to take 2 trains a longer distance.

Knowing this, next time I go to Barnetby it seems I'd do better to book to Market Rasen, get off as usual and just walk away without using the second leg of the booked journey. Nuts!

 

[Starmill]

I've tried that in the past for a variety of simple journeys and the journey details always get lost during the handoff. Maybe things are better now?

It can also depend whom you chose.

For example I was in the situation recently where NRE was offering a route as permitted and an itinerary I wanted, but if this was handed over to the LNER site it just said no tickets were available. Handing it off to TransPennine Express succeeded, however.

I suspect this was because TransPennine Express' site always accepts itineraries and ticket details from NRE, while LNER's does its own check - which results in a fail for that ticket on that particular route.