Break of journey on Advance ticket. What can they do?

[krus_aragon]

Say I've got an advance ticket, for travel from A to C via B. While traveling I decide that I'd like to go shopping at B, and figure "I'll buy a single from B to C when I'm done to get home". I get off the train at B, and the train departs. As I walk to the exit, I note the ticket barriers.

This situation appears to break the terms and conditions of an advance ticket: You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary. I haven't left the station premises yet, though.

What are ticket inspectors able to do, given that the train's now gone without me? Would the situation differ if I was due to change trains at B anyway?

 

[clagmonster]

If you were due to change trains at B, then you would officially be allowed out of the barriers in order to use station facilities. In practice, you would probably then be able to walk straight out of the station but this wouldn't officially be allowed. You could then purchase your new ticket from B to C.
As for you first scenario, where you weren't due to change trains, I do not know what the action would be taken. However, if you started your journey at an unstaffed station, and your ticket had not been clipped, you would be charged a £10 admin fee, plus the difference between the cost of your ticket and the cheapest ticket which allows a break of journey. If you had started at a staffed station, or your ticket had been clipped, in a penalty fare area, I imagine a penalty fare would be charged. If not, I do not know what would happen.

 

[A60K]

What's the basis for any of this information? Particularly why the difference if your ticket has been clipped or not, or if you started at a staffed or unstaffed station?

 

[yorkie]

If you were due to change trains at B, then you would officially be allowed out of the barriers in order to use station facilities. In practice, you would probably then be able to walk straight out of the station but this wouldn't officially be allowed. You could then purchase your new ticket from B to C.

I agree.

At a station like Leeds they'd let you through no questions asked I suspect, as there are many facilities beyond the barriers that passengers may wish to use. If it was somewhere like Hatfield, with a manual barrier line in place where people exit the station itself and there's no station facilities, then you can't really use that argument.

As for you first scenario, where you weren't due to change trains, I do not know what the action would be taken. However, if you started your journey at an unstaffed station, and your ticket had not been clipped, you would be charged a £10 admin fee, plus the difference between the cost of your ticket and the cheapest ticket which allows a break of journey.

On the basis that you could argue you wanted to change the ticket before travel but there was no opportunity? Hmm... possibly. This is only really benefitial if the AP fare paid is £10 or less, and I'm not convinced. Don't you have to change it up to 6pm on the date before the journey? You can't change it on the day. Can you argue that you wanted to change it at 5pm the previous day but the station was unstaffed? Would be nice to think so, but I doubt it...

If you had started at a staffed station, or your ticket had been clipped, in a penalty fare area, I imagine a penalty fare would be charged. If not, I do not know what would happen.

I don't see how they can issue a penalty fare. They can charge the cheapest ticket for immediate travel that allowed the journey to be broken/finished at that station. It is then questionable whether or not railcard discounts should be allowed. Hopefully someone will be along shortly to quote the rules (which will probably be heavily biased against the passenger, cue a debate about how enforceable they are )

 

[Nick W]

Surely preventing someone from exiting from the railway when they have paid for the services is false imprisonment - what happens if a person feels ill or a family emergency occurs?

I cannot find any logical way of interpreting the condition: "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

When would you start, break and resume, or end your journey to change to/from connecting trains? The only situation in which this involves leaving railway property - walking between two stations - does not count as a break of journey.

 

[glynn80]

When would you start, break and resume, or end your journey to change to/from connecting trains? The only situation in which this involves leaving railway property - walking between two stations - does not count as a break of journey.

Say for example I have an Advance with Virgin from London to Glasgow. During the journey I receive a call from an old friend of mine is who is currently in Dumfries. I decide to visit him and then continue my trip to Glasgow, so I disembark at Carlisle and then buy a new ticket from Carlisle to Glasgow.

Doing what I have described above is perfectly valid with the rules in place, so long as a new ticket is bought when you arrive at the intermediate station you disembark at.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A penalty fare could only be charged if the origin station has a notice declaring that either, it is a penalty fares zone, or there are penalty fares in place on services from that station, I think. Even where these signs exist, not all train companies issue penalty fares.

If there are facilities outside the barrier and you are due to change trains there, you will be allowed out of the barrier to 'use those facilities'.

If you are not due to change trains at that station, you will be issued with a new ticket for your journey, you will NOT be entitled to a refund on your advance fare.

However, if there was no facility to change your ticket before you joined the train, you could be issued with an excess to the cheapest available fare to cover the journey on your advance ticket, that would allow a break of journey.

EDIT: Changes to Advance fares can be made upto the departure time of the first reserved train on the ticket, however the new price will be for the cheapest available fare at the time of the change, regardless what tickets had been available at the time the original ticket was purchased.

 

[stut]

At a station like Leeds they'd let you through no questions asked I suspect, as there are many facilities beyond the barriers that passengers may wish to use. If it was somewhere like Hatfield, with a manual barrier line in place where people exit the station itself and there's no station facilities, then you can't really use that argument.

What about the "just popping out for a smoke" argument?

 

[clagmonster]

What's the basis for any of this information? Particularly why the difference if your ticket has been clipped or not, or if you started at a staffed or unstaffed station?

I have a print out of the section of the FRPP about excess fares when there was no opportunity to purchase before boarding. What I have stated is paraphrased from this document.
The part about whether or not the ticket has been clipped when boarding at an unstaffed station was included because if your ticket is checked, it is my opinion that you have had an opportunity to pay for an excess on the train before you got to the barriered station at which the break of journey is proposed.
Hairy handed fool, yes I did mean for the entire journey from and including the origin station to the break of journey station to be in a penalty fares area, with the appropriate notices (Do these need to be displayed on the train as well as the station? I have certainly seen suchnotices on trains before) in order for a PF to be charged.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have seen notices on the train and in timetables, but I don't know if these are a requirement, the notices on stations definately are.

 

[First class]

No requirement for trains to display PF notices. Although if a conductor sells you a ticket in a PF area (when if an Inspector was present you would be getting a PF), he must warn you, usually by an information card/leaflet or just a verbal warning.

Just on entry points to a station, and enough posters appropriate for the size of the station, i.e. a small local station (Bache) has 4 big posters and a reminder on the TVM.

 

[stut]

On PFs, I've always wondered... My 'home' network is FCC GN route. Now, I have an annual season, so not inclined to fare jump, but say I went off-route towards Ely, got collarred somewhere near Waterbeach and told I had to pay a PF for having no ticket. If I piped up "aha, but I'm coming from Crews Hill, and there was a very tight connection in Stevenage", what would happen?

(Other than the RPI rolling his eyes and muttering "christ, another one of those" to themselves...)

 

[rail-britain]

Say for example I have an Advance with Virgin from London to Glasgow. During the journey I receive a call from an old friend of mine is who is currently in Dumfries. I decide to visit him and then continue my trip to Glasgow, so I disembark at Carlisle and then buy a new ticket from Carlisle to Glasgow

You can leave the train at Carlisle, your Advanced ticket is then used up
You purchase a ticket to Dumfries
It would probably be quicker to then buy a ticket from Dumfries to Glasgow, rather than a Dumfries to Carlisle
However you could not then use the remaining portion of the London to Glasgow ticket, as it expired as soon as that service left Carlisle and you were not on it

Another issue I have seen is leaving a train before destination
I had a Glasgow - Preston / Preston - Glasgow and had to get off at Lancaster
I argued with the platform staff that I was only swapping between trains in order to meet the connection as otherwise it would be missed at Preston (originally allowing 60 minutes)
Eventually they conceded the point, but advised me never to do it again
Like who is going to check and remember?!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

On PFs, I've always wondered... My 'home' network is FCC GN route. Now, I have an annual season, so not inclined to fare jump, but say I went off-route towards Ely, got collarred somewhere near Waterbeach and told I had to pay a PF for having no ticket. If I piped up "aha, but I'm coming from Crews Hill, and there was a very tight connection in Stevenage", what would happen?

(Other than the RPI rolling his eyes and muttering "christ, another one of those" to themselves...)

According to National Rail Enquires, Penalty Fares do not apply when travelling from Crews Hill.

 

[RichardB]

I have asked several different staff on trains recently about whether I'm allowed to break my journey from A to B at C, which is on the "+ Connections" bit of my route, and not the bit with reservations on it. In all cases, they have said that this is fine, and that you are allowed to break and resume your journey on the "Connections" parts of your route.

Does anyone know whether this is true or not?

 

[jwos]

Break of journey which involves finishing the journey early in any form is simply not allowed with advance purchase tickets, and if you do it you run the risk of incurring large costs.

Getting off a reserved train short of the destination shown on the reservation is exactly the same.

If you broke the journey on a London - Glasgow advance ticket at Carlisle as mentioned earlier, and your reservation was Euston to Glasgow, revenue staff would be perfectly entitled to make you buy an any time single from London to Carlisle.

It's a break of journey where a change was not necessary, and you would be depriving someone else of the chance of an advance purchase quota between Carlisle and Glasgow, meaning the TOC has been potentially denied the opportunity to sell another ticket for that part of the journey.

Whether anyone would actually enforce that is however improbable, particularly if you binned your original ticket, and there is no liaison between the on train staff who checked your ticket on board, and those at any barrier.

Excessing is only possible before scheduled departure time of the 1st reserved train, so would not be allowed mid- journey. Even doing it beforehand, you would also have to be careful if you had a TOC-specific Advance fare, which in the case of a through originally booked train would usually be the case (e.g. London - Glasgow would say VIRGIN TRNS ONLY as the route), because TOC- specific routed tickets cannot be excessed to 'any permitted' routes.

Most barrier staff will let you out if your booked advance ticket itinerarary shows a change at their location.

As for false imprisonment issues, try arguing that one out with airport staff if you're awaiting a connecting flight, or anywhere else 'airside' on an airport -you're not likely to get very far. If you choose to travel on public transport, you have to abide by the rules and general conventions exercised in such undertakings. That includes being 'imprisoned' in trains until such time as the guard releases the doors, and also entails your encountering barriers blocking 'en masse' simultaneous egress from stations in order that train operators may vet customers individually on their way out of railway premises in order to protect their revenue.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The official wording in the Advance Conditions is : "... if the 'Route' also states 'and Connections', travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket or other travel itinerary".

I think the key word here is 'appropriate', which in my view would not really allow a break of journey which is not necessary to complete the journey.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have asked several different staff on trains recently about whether I'm allowed to break my journey from A to B at C, which is on the "+ Connections" bit of my route, and not the bit with reservations on it. In all cases, they have said that this is fine, and that you are allowed to break and resume your journey on the "Connections" parts of your route.

Does anyone know whether this is true or not?

The official line would be 'no, you can't break your journey** on an 'Advance' ticket, because this is a condition of the ticket that, by buying the ticket, you have agreed to.

If you break your journey** before arriving at your destination* station, you must pay the full fare from your origin station* to that station (or a penalty fare as appropriate), as if no ticket was held, unless there were no facilities to change your ticket at the origin station*, regardless what part of the journey you are on.

[*As printed on your 'Advance' ticket]
[**As defined in the NCoC]

 

[RichardB]

So if you had, say, an advance ticket from London to Workington, with it being reserved from London to Carlisle, then you are saying that the official word on this is that you could not break your journey (i.e. leave the station premises and then return later to complete the journey to Workington) at a station between Carlisle and Workington. As all the train company employees that I've asked this question have said that this would be acceptable.

 

[krus_aragon]

I've just recalled that I have stopped short on an advance ticket once. With a ticket to Eastbrook (Valley Lines), a ticket inspector was happy for me to leave at Cardiff Central: the last point of my journey which had reservations. I completed the rest of my journey by car.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

So if you had, say, an advance ticket from London to Workington, with it being reserved from London to Carlisle, then you are saying that the official word on this is that you could not break your journey (i.e. leave the station premises and then return later to complete the journey to Workington) at a station between Carlisle and Workington. As all the train company employees that I've asked this question have said that this would be acceptable.

My view is that no, you can't break your journey between Carlisle and Workington as when you get back on again you would not be on an 'appropriate' train in relation to your original booked seat for the main part of your journey. It is clearly stated that break of journey is only allowed if it is neccesary to change trains to complete your journey. In your example, you have to change at Carlisle to connect to Workington, so that is fine. You do not have to change en-route however as the train you get on at Carlisle goes to Workington, thus if you get off you are - in effect - ending your journey at that point and a new ticket would need to be purchased to continue your journey.

In practise however, I suspect some Rail staff (especially those working for Northern or other TOCs that do no control quotas) may be a bit more lenient, but you have to bear in mind that this is them being flexible and is certainly not an entitlement. Should you be challenged you would almost certainly be required to buy a new ticket for the second part of the journey.

 

[yorksrob]

Break of journey which involves finishing the journey early in any form is simply not allowed with advance purchase tickets, and if you do it you run the risk of incurring large costs.

Getting off a reserved train short of the destination shown on the reservation is exactly the same.

If you broke the journey on a London - Glasgow advance ticket at Carlisle as mentioned earlier, and your reservation was Euston to Glasgow, revenue staff would be perfectly entitled to make you buy an any time single from London to Carlisle.

It's a break of journey where a change was not necessary, and you would be depriving someone else of the chance of an advance purchase quota between Carlisle and Glasgow, meaning the TOC has been potentially denied the opportunity to sell another ticket for that part of the journey.

Whether anyone would actually enforce that is however improbable, particularly if you binned your original ticket, and there is no liaison between the on train staff who checked your ticket on board, and those at any barrier.

Excessing is only possible before scheduled departure time of the 1st reserved train, so would not be allowed mid- journey. Even doing it beforehand, you would also have to be careful if you had a TOC-specific Advance fare, which in the case of a through originally booked train would usually be the case (e.g. London - Glasgow would say VIRGIN TRNS ONLY as the route), because TOC- specific routed tickets cannot be excessed to 'any permitted' routes.

Most barrier staff will let you out if your booked advance ticket itinerarary shows a change at their location.

As for false imprisonment issues, try arguing that one out with airport staff if you're awaiting a connecting flight, or anywhere else 'airside' on an airport -you're not likely to get very far. If you choose to travel on public transport, you have to abide by the rules and general conventions exercised in such undertakings. That includes being 'imprisoned' in trains until such time as the guard releases the doors, and also entails your encountering barriers blocking 'en masse' simultaneous egress from stations in order that train operators may vet customers individually on their way out of railway premises in order to protect their revenue.

Sounds a bit like the TOC's having their cake and eating it. If I buy an advanced purchase from say London to Glasgow then decided to detrain at Carlisle I would have thought that since I've purchased that ticket and the right to travel from London to Glasgow it's up to me whether I decide to detrain along the route or indeed whether I decide not to travel at all. I would have already paid the financial penalty in that I will have lost the right to travel from Carlisle onwards on that ticket. However, I would have still have paid for my place on that train and frankly whether the TOC wanted to resell that place on the Carlile - Glasgow section would be neither here nor there as it would effectively not be theirs to sell.

If the TOC did try to pursue me for the full single fare from London to Carlisle on leaving at Carlisle I would regard this as nothing less than sharp practice and would complain accordingly.

 

[yorkie]

Until they can electronically tag you, you are fine! Even new Labour aren't quite that right-wing yet.

Changing trains is not breaking your journey, and neither is using station facilities. Breaking your journey is defined as leaving station premises. They cannot deny you the right to pass through barriers (where they exist) to use the ticket office, toilets, shops, telephones, lost property offices or any facility providing you do not leave the premises. Leaving the premises is acceptable if you are doing a walk between stations. In theory, if walking from Bradford Interchange to Forster Square, if you stepped foot inside a shop or took a longer walk than necessary, you would be breaking your journey!

Changing trains is not a break of journey.

However it is obvious that once you have chosen to break your journey and let the trains that you were supposed to get go, it would not be reasonable to expect to be able to resume it again, but I think the question here is about "finishing short" rather than resuming a broken journey.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

FRPP says:

Break of Journey
- Customers may not start, break and resume, or end their journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

Fairly straight forward really, in my eyes atleast.

But the official line and 'what happens on the day' aren't always the same thing, just don't expect to be 'let off'.

 

[yorkie]

"you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff."
So leaving the station is breaking your journey unless you have been told to leave (e.g. bomb scare or get a replacement bus etc), or you have to stay overnight due to not being able to complete the journey in one day or if you are doing an interchange that involves walking to another station.

Changing trains is not part of the definition of a break of journey.

 

[TEW]

No, and you are allowed to go through the barriers to use station facilities, you should not leave the station but the likelihood of that being enforced is very low.

 

[blacknight]

Simple answer to the question is very little, rule exists but few make a choice to enforce it to the letter of the rule.
For instance what about when transferring on to a local service usually just states "& connecting services" on ticket, what defines the phase connecting service would have thought it would have to state next connecting service to enforce rule.
Station staff have no power to stop you leaving station if you wish to do so as that could be unlawful arrest-Can ask you to give your details which you must give as giving false details would be an offence.
Easiest way to get off station today is by just telling staff that you are going for quick drag on a cancer stick,can't show you the exit quick enough.

 

[MKB]

What is so iniquitous about the rules on Advance tickets is that TOCs frequently don't bother to load fares for anything other than major station pairs.

So, for example, I might see an Advance fare loaded for Birmingham to Newcastle, but nothing available on exactly the same train from Burton-on-Trent to Durham. Expecting people travelling shorter distances to pay higher fares than those travelling further on the same train is simply not right.

I know the airlines get away with the same scam, but that's not right either.

 

[northwichcat]

If your Advance ticket involved going between Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool Central then would it mean you have to take a train between the two stations and can't walk instead?

 

[yorkie]

If your Advance ticket involved going between Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool Central then would it mean you have to take a train between the two stations and can't walk instead?

No.

Quoted from above "(i) to join a train at another station,"

What isn't clear is which stations interchange is permitted. There are obvious ones such as Liverpool, London, Bradford etc. But if I have a bike then a lot more become practical! With an Off Peak outward portion that is barred there are some possible locations where it could be disputed, as it isn't defined.