Bridgeton to Kings Park via Newton in Glasgow. Valid?

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bAzTNM

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Hi.

Just wanting to know if this is a valid fare.

I normally buy a Bridgeton to Kings Park ticket. I get off at Newton and then get the train from Newton. National Rail Enquiries website is saying that it is a valid fare..

I get the ticket all the time, but for the last few days, I've been getting bother because of it. Ticket guy was saying that it "wasn't the shortest route!" today.

Help me please? :) Thanks.

ADDED: Got the feeling the examiner here is right. Might need to rethink how I travel. I've been paying £2.40 for it, when it should be £5. Oops. I'm definately wrong.
 
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MarkyMarkD

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No, National Rail Enquiries does NOT say that the cheapest fare from Bridgeton to Kings Park is valid via Newton (Lanark), because it's not. That route is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route and is therefore not valid.

NRE suggests that if you want to travel via Newton, you need two single tickets.
 

SickyNicky

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I agree with MarkyMarkD. The route is not permitted. It's a total of 3.04 miles more than the shortest route (via Glasgow) and the two stations share routeing points, so only direct trains, the shortest route and those within 3 miles of the shortest route are valid.

So it's a close-run thing!
 

bAzTNM

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Is travelling from Bridgeton to Glasgow Central then to Kings Park valid? Thanks for all of your help.

I had been getting the Bridgeton-Newton-Kings Park ticket for weeks and nobody had caught on.
 

SickyNicky

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Is travelling from Bridgeton to Glasgow Central then to Kings Park valid?
Yes - that's the shortest route:

The shortest route with a regular train service, not including walks and transfers (6.05 miles):
  • BRIDGETON
  • ARGYLE STREET
  • GLASGOW CENTRAL
  • POLLOKSHIELDS E
  • QUEENS PARK GLAS
  • CROSSHILL
  • MOUNT FLORIDA
  • KINGS PARK
 

John @ home

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On this occasion, I don't agree with MarkyMarkD or SickyNicky. The distances in the National Rail Timetable show that Bridgeton - Kings Park via Newton (Lanarks) is a Permitted Route. We know that
Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route. Journeys following a route given by the Routeing Guide are following a permitted route.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf
Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route. ... The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
The calculation using the National Rail Timetable is:

Shortest route (as set out by SickyNicky in post #5)
Table 226: Bridgeton (27 miles) - Glasgow Central Low Level (28.75 miles) = 1.75 miles.
Table 223: Glasgow Central High Level (0 miles) - via Queens Park - Kings Park (4.5 miles) = 4.5 miles.
Total 6.25 miles.

Bridgeton - Kings Park via Newton (Lanarks)
Table 226: Bridgeton (27 miles) - Newton (Lanarks) (22.5 miles) = 4.5 miles.
Table 223: Newton (Lanarks) (8.75 miles) - Kings Park (4.5 miles) = 4.25 miles.
Total 8.75 miles.

Bridgeton - Kings Park via Newton (Lanarks) is a distance longer than the route of shortest distance by no more than 3 miles. It is therefore a Permitted Route.
 

SickyNicky

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Bridgeton - Kings Park via Newton (Lanarks) is a distance longer than the route of shortest distance by no more than 3 miles. It is therefore a Permitted Route.
In fact, [email protected] is correct. This highlights the trouble we have with two sets of mileage data. The data used by booking engines does not match the data in the National Rail Timetable.

This leads to issues such as this where the electronic data says the route is invalid but the timetable says it is OK. Since the routeing guide says we must use mileages from the timetable, the route is allowed after all.

I would suggest that for future mileage checks, anything that's close to the 3 mile limit is manually checked against the timetable. I will certainly do that.
 

yorkie

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ATOC tell us to use NRT mileages (which are rounded to 1/4 miles). Bear in mind if you combine several tables, each table could be rounded up or down, so that can cause significant rounding errors. Also worthy of note - though not applicable here - is that ATOC tell us that the shortest route can be different in different directions if there is a service in one direction and not the other (e.g. shortest route Rugeley to Stoke will be avoiding Stafford, but Stoke to Rugeley will be via Stafford!).

But is this what they tell the developers of booking engines? No it's not! They tell them to use the Network Rail mileages which are in chains, which are then decimalised. They have not told them to differentiate by direction, so the booking engines falsely believe the shortest route between Stoke and Rugeley is avoiding Stafford, despite there being no service via Stafford.

It gets worse. There is evidence that the booking engines believe the shortest route between, for example, Dore and Chesterfield is avoiding Sheffield, because the data does not differentiate between the fact that the Sheffield to Chesterfield line has no connection to the remaining platform at Dore (a shunt move would be required!).

I get the impression that the people who tell us what we should be doing to determine the shortest route probably don't talk much to the people who tell the software developers what they should be doing to determine the shortest route. I understand ATOC is a fragmented organisation and you can get inconsistent answers depending on which part of ATOC you speak to. However it is ultimately the DfT who is responsible for this confusion, and they are supposed to be the Regulator (though not for much longer it seems).
 

bAzTNM

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Thanks for all your help regarding this. I'll think I'll start going the Bridgeton-Glasgow Central-Kings Park way now due to less bother.
 
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