Brigantes in York on fire (22/02)

[yorkie]

A lot of forum members will be familiar with this pub.

Someone (who I believe was a member of staff) had said it wasn't a fire 5 minutes before I posted any of the above photos, I think they said it was a problem with a dryer (would they have a tumble dryer?) but I can't really remember exactly what was said now.

The kitchen fire alarm went off but it wasn't thought to be a concern until people became aware of smoke coming into the seating area. After a couple of minutes I decided to call 999 (I asked staff if they had been called, they did not know, so I was not going to take any chances). The smoke then spread very quickly from that point onwards. There was no fire alarm sounding other than the one in the kitchen as far as I was aware and staff remained at the bar even when the smoke was becoming quite thick, I was at that point about to just shout to everyone to get out but they then decided to go outside at that point.

I could not fault the staff but they shouldn't have remained in the building quite as long as they did, but I am not sure that the fire alarm arrangements are adequate (at my workplace the noise of the fire alarms is VERY loud and it is really obvious when you must evacuate).

Wish I'd phoned 999 earlier to be honest (I waited a couple of minutes, when the smoke was still very thinly spread) but of course you initially assume it's all under control. To be fair, I didn't wait very long, and I thought it would look silly if you called 999 when there is only a kitchen alarm going off and the staff seem to have things under control.

By the time I had finished the 999 call the smoke was quite black and thick and starting to pour out of the building.

Not something you experience very often or want to experience again.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh dear. Fire can spread remarkably quickly in a furnished building!

 

[Starmill]

 

[D6700]

Smoked haddock fishcakes back on the menu...

 

[Crossover]

Just can't let forum folk go anywhere :P

 

[D6700]

Too many laptops plugged in!

 

[43094]

Hope there's not too much damage!

 

[John Webb]

I assume this pub is on Micklegate - if so, then at 21:15, North Yorkshire Fire and Rescue service were saying that the fire was out and the building being ventilated. See http://www.northyorksfire.gov.uk/news-events/breaking-news/incident_summary_fire_rescue_22_02_2018

Crews from Acomb, Huntington and York have attended a fire within a commercial premise on Micklegate, York. The fire is now extinguished and crews are delayed whilst ventaliating the property. Please avoid this area if you can to avoid congestion.

Can I add a plea that the fire service is called ASAP if you suspect a fire - they'd rather have several calls than (n)one!

 

[IanXC]

I could not fault the staff but they shouldn't have remained in the building quite as long as they did,

I must say I'm struggling with this. Either they shouldn't have delayed the evacuation that long in which case surely they should be criticised, or they evacuated at the correct time and deserve no criticism?

 

[robbeech]

The fire service will of course be aware if multiple people phone about the same fire and it’s fine to do this. It may be that a second (or third or fourth) caller gives them additional information that can help them assess whether the couple of units they’ve already sent is adequate. It’s also more than ok to call and say, actually it’s out now we don’t need you, although providing there are no more urgent calls for them they will likely still send a unit to assess things.

The issue we have here that Yorkie describes is quite different. A fire alarm in a kitchen in a restaurant should not need to prompt a call to the fire service from a member of public. The fact that this had to be done does unfortunately show a lack of experience or knowledge from the staff despite the comments saying you couldn’t fault them. Communication is key and the staff should have evacuated the building as a precaution or informed the customers that the situation was under control if they knew beyond doubt that it was so. It appears it was not under control so the former should have been executed much earlier. I fully understand the delay as you would expect the staff to have made the call or not. You absolutely did the right thing in ‘overruling your own initial thoughts’ and that clearly comes from a policy of ‘better to be safe than sorry’ which is the right attitude.

There are certain rules on fire alarm systems in commercial buildings, some of which are not as strict as you’d expect and some of which can be a little ott in certain situations. This can prompt defiance and stubbornness in some establishments. What has happened here will be under investigation and speculation is pointless.

In my job I see and work with the general public in the most densely populated spaces that I can think of. Sporting events spring to mind but as a rule they do have a large open space in the middle of them to distribute people should the need arise. Sadly things go wrong in all environments. Fire safety is incredibly important and evacuating 15,000 panicking people from an Arena takes a lot of doing. Every second counts and it’s incredibly difficult to make the call. If a fire in a piece of equipment starts in the middle of a show one has to weigh up the options very quickly. If there is a risk it will spread quickly then you must evacuate but the risk of injury from evacuation of that many people is high so you have to assess that carefully. (We see this when we evacuate a tube station for example). If the fire can be extinguished then this is a safer option be it with a stop to the show for “technical reasons” or without. I’ve put out fires backstage and even on stage at a festival infront of thousands of people whilst the act (a famous comedian) simply carried on with their set. Evacuating a pub is generally less of a risk and as such it’s far less of an issue to get people out even if it turns out they didn’t need to, but I come from a world of being involved in a couple of nasty fires, one of which would have taken the lives of many members of the public and crew had the decision to evacuate been made as little as a couple of minutes later. The promoter for the event (not in the UK) was very angry upon evacuation as this affects the running and continuity of the event. We were threatened with legal action for interrupting the event whilst trying to put out a fire or keep it at bay whilst 5000 people left the building. The only injury on that event was the promoter himself, the singer from the headline band (a multi million album selling one that must remain nameless) had an intimate moment between his fist and the promoter due to his poor attitude regarding the evacuation.
So overall the important thing is that nobody is hurt, hopefully there won’t be too much damage to the building or contents and hopefully there will be some lessons learned for the staff who (whilst I wasn’t there so cannot day for sure) appeared to not necessarily have the correct training. It may be worth a letter to the establishment and/or fire service outlining any concerns you may have no matter how small they may seem for it is not about who is right or wrong, but about who lives or dies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's amazing how quickly a fire can run out of control. Due to a series of pieces of stupidity I set fire to my oven a couple of months ago. In the end I managed to put it out, but it had reached the point where I was very close to just calling 999, and quite a lot of people probably already would have done. It escalated incredibly quickly.

Edit: I now have a powder fire extinguisher in the kitchen. And the oven survived with no more than a load of black muck to clean off.

 

[yorkie]

I must say I'm struggling with this. Either they shouldn't have delayed the evacuation that long in which case surely they should be criticised, or they evacuated at the correct time and deserve no criticism?

I don't think the evacuation of customers was a problem as such, but they remained in the bar area for a moment after that. Not particularly long, but there were some staff in there at a point when I noticed the smoke was thickening, so they were not in danger from the fire as such, but they probably breathed in more of the fumes than they should have done. The impression I got was they really were looking for someone to instruct them to get out, if that makes sense. I'm not having a go at management necessarily and I don't know the full details, but I would say the staff may need a bit of a refresher in what to do in a fire, and it is the management who are responsible for that.

If there were any failings (I am not necessarily saying there were or weren't) what I am saying is that it would be management and not individual staff. Also the Press article linked to above does have the relevant manager praising the staff. I wouldn't go so far as to praise them but what I am saying is I would not criticise them.

At my workplace if a fire alarm goes off, everyone is to evacuate immediately (with the exception of fire wardens who could use a fire extinguisher if applicable and deemed appropriate, else go to a designated place to receive instructions, which would usually require them to sweep the building), everyone knows exactly what to do and everyone knows who is responsible for whatever needs to be done.

 

[ainsworth74]

Sporting events spring to mind but as a rule they do have a large open space in the middle of them to distribute people should the need arise.

I still shudder to think what would have happened in the Bradford City stadium fire if that stadium had had pens as was common at that time in Football grounds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still shudder to think what would have happened in the Bradford City stadium fire if that stadium had had pens as was common at that time in Football grounds.

Perimeter fences were a stupid idea from the start, and it is really sad that it took Hillsborough to prove that. They still have them in some other countries, notably some German grounds, and they really need rid.

Yes, it's a nuisance if the fans invade the pitch and the match has to be stopped and the players moved to safety - but that's all it is, a nuisance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think the evacuation of customers was a problem as such, but they remained in the bar area for a moment after that. Not particularly long, but there were some staff in there at a point when I noticed the smoke was thickening, so they were not in danger from the fire as such, but they probably breathed in more of the fumes than they should have done. The impression I got was they really were looking for someone to instruct them to get out, if that makes sense. I'm not having a go at management necessarily and I don't know the full details, but I would say the staff may need a bit of a refresher in what to do in a fire, and it is the management who are responsible for that.

That sounds like classic sheep mentality.

One of the effects of having a very loud "squealer" type fire alarm is that everyone will get out simply because the sound is almost painful.

 

[John Webb]

There was research carried out as far back as the 1980s that showed that the best method of getting people to move out was a short burst of warning signal followed by an appropriate voice announcement for the building concerned. This made clear the warning signal was because of an emergency, and not just an equipment alarm, faulty alarm or burglar alarm which people might decide to ignore!

 

[xc170]

I was in a branch of McDonalds today, my kid was hungry and it was the closest place, sat down eating and the fire alarm sounded, I was quite shocked to see I was the only person to actually get up from my seat and head towards the door...

Same thing has happened in my local shopping centre, alarm sounded, people continued to shop, madness...

 

[GW43125]

I was in a well-known chain supermarket in Carlisle a couple of years ago when the fire alarm went off (presumably due to the workman drilling into the fire door-we'd already seen him doing this). Hardly anyone started moving until the staff started ushering people out.

We went to get a coffee instead, then we had to head back to my train before I could go back to the supermarket.
600 mile round trip, never did get my Scotch pies

Last week I was in a hotel and we had the fire alarm go off at about 3am. It took me about 20-30 seconds to realise what was happening and muster up the motivation to actually get out of bed. Then it stopped. I went back to sleep.

I didn't hear anyone really moving around.

 

[HSTEd]

I recall an incident when I was home on a break from University, my parents were a work, and I woke up at about 10AM, entered the bathroom to see a fire burning at the back of my garden, against our (chain link) boundary fence.
I threw some clothes on, ran out back and within two or three minutes managed to get a garden hose onto it - but it was already quite large at the time, and if it hadn't been for the difficulty of getting a fire engine into play I Might have phoned immediately.
As it was the neighbour had also noticed and between the two of us we managed to get it under control.

We suspect the neighbour triggered it by dumping hot ashes under a Leylandii but can't prove anything.

If I hadn't woken up at that specific moment or had gone straight downstairs instead of into the bathroom, it could have got very bad, very quickly as it was part of a Leylandii hedge that was unbroken all the way to our house.

 

[dgl]

Had te fire alarm go off once in a branch on Debenhams as I was just about to sit down to quite a nice looking roast, no one seemed to move at first but staff quickly ushered everyone else out (it took about 15-20mins before we were allowed back in (unfortunately they cleared all the tables away before we were allowed in and I didn't get to finish my roast ),
Also once at work halfway through getting changed from swimming, had to give everyone foil blankets (although I was alright) as cold breeze on et body is not good.

Both times handled well though.

 

[theblackwatch]

Brigantes is open again, but to quote a friend who has been there tonight "You can still smell it".

 

[Crossover]

They have posted this on Facebook yesterday.

 

[DarloRich]

WAS THE ALE DAMAGED??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Did someone save the ale? My god some it might be warm!

 

[underbank]

When I was on holiday in Eilat (Israel), there was an earthquake and still people didn't immediately evacuate (to be fair, there was no alarm), but when you have the building shaking vigorously, patio doors exploding, mirrors/pictures falling off the walls, you'd think it would be blatantly obvious to get the hell out.

 

[GW43125]

When I was on holiday in Eilat (Israel), there was an earthquake and still people didn't immediately evacuate (to be fair, there was no alarm), but when you have the building shaking vigorously, patio doors exploding, mirrors/pictures falling off the walls, you'd think it would be blatantly obvious to get the hell out.

Surely in an earthquake you'd hide under a table etc in case something falls on you rather than going outside where there's even more to fall on you.

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely in an earthquake you'd hide under a table etc in case something falls on you rather than going outside where there's even more to fall on you.

A table won’t offer much protection from a roof, surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The table thing is more that you are unlikely to have time to get outside and away from buildings.

 

[Jonny]

A table won’t offer much protection from a roof, surely?

Maybe not, since the building will offer a small degree of protection as everything has to filter down. A table etc. gives some protection.

In fact the advice based on experience of recent quakes in New Zealand is to take cover under furniture (if possible, otherwise hands over head) first, then evacuate once the vibrations stop. Well, that is the advice I was given when visiting the earthquake zonea.

On the other hand, if the building comes down then you're probably screwed anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe not, since the building will offer a small degree of protection as everything has to filter down. A table etc. gives some protection.

In fact the advice based on experience of recent quakes in New Zealand is to take cover under furniture (if possible, otherwise hands over head) first, then evacuate once the vibrations stop. Well, that is the advice I was given when visiting the earthquake zonea.

On the other hand, if the building comes down then you're probably screwed anyway.

I believe that under a wooden staircase was found to be one of the more sheltered places in the home, during the blitz.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I believe that under a wooden staircase was found to be one of the more sheltered places in the home, during the blitz.

Yes, particularly where the stairs are in the core of the house rather than against one of the outside walls.

When I bought my house, I was told that the previous owner's family used their staircase as an air raid shelter during the war - it's right in the middle of the house, brick walls on three sides and very sturdy.