Brighton Mainline 4G/5G upgrades

[Gigabit]

Well its even more ridiculous in that there is complete coverage of phone masts/leaky feeders along (all?) lines, with GSM-R for the trains. Anyone with half a brain would have also put infrastructure for commercial providers while the was done. As I've said before, this could have been a real money maker for Network Rail, the operators do and will pay significant rent for these kind of services.

Better cellular coverage on the network would be probably the #1 "passenger experience" improvement that could be done IMO.

I've always wondered about this, does GSM-R really provide 100% coverage in-train and also in tunnels? I had thought it was limited to only certain use cases.

And productivity improvement too, it would be a massive boost.

This country is utterly useless at mobile phone coverage, it baffles me that we don't enforce minimum standards on railways and roads, we seem to think the market will solve it but it manifestly has failed to do so. For goodness sake it is 2023 and a mile outside of Central London my phone doesn't work on the train!

 

[MrJeeves]

with GSM-R for the trains. Anyone with half a brain would have also put infrastructure for commercial providers while the was done.

In many cases, GSM-R has restricted what networks can deploy near railway lines for interference reasons (Ofcom can restrict where network can install 900 MHz 2G/3G).

Limited 2G/3G deployments in major areas were often a result of this, especially with O2 and Vodafone having 900 MHz spectrum used for 2G/3G that is very near to GSM-R frequencies.

It also affected 2100 MHz as a result of Vodafone's policies around refarming it from 3G to 4G meant that they wanted a buffer around areas so that 3G and 4G 2100 MHz didn't touch (interference reasons), which means they now have areas with 2100 MHz 3G but not 4G because they can't be bothered to go back and install 900 MHz 2G/3G where it didn't exist before.

 

[Gigabit]

In many cases, GSM-R has restricted what networks can deploy near railway lines for interference reasons (Ofcom can restrict where network can install 900 MHz 2G/3G).

Limited 2G/3G deployments in major areas were often a result of this, especially with O2 and Vodafone having 900 MHz spectrum used for 2G/3G that is very near to GSM-R frequencies.

It also affected 2100 MHz as a result of Vodafone's policies around refarming it from 3G to 4G meant that they wanted a buffer around areas so that 3G and 4G 2100 MHz didn't touch (interference reasons), which means they now have areas with 2100 MHz 3G but not 4G because they can't be bothered to go back and install 900 MHz 2G/3G where it didn't exist before.

Won't be an issue much longer as Vodafone is turning off 3G by the end of this year.

There are ways to mitigate interference, a blanket no is a terrible solution. The Government should change the rules so networks can install masts on NR land and NR should charge for access. It would literally be brilliant.

Why do so few tunnels have cells within them? This is literally the only country I can think of where getting service in a tunnel is a novelty, in every European country I've been to you get full signal in all tunnels. Why are so we useless?

Can anyone explain why our coverage on railways has been so bad for so long? Do people just not care?

 

[MrJeeves]

Why do so few tunnels have cells within them?

Because line closures cost money.

 

[Carlisle]

But yes I concede that we also have one company for infrastructure too. My sense from my time at Vodafone was that Network Rail were completely uninterested in mobile coverage but that seems to have changed now which can only be a good thing.

Yes, didn’t the original GSMR installation essentially bypass the planning process by being deemed “essential to the running of the railway” but adding commercial network’s equipment would’ve nullified that loophole?

 

[infobleep]

Won't be an issue much longer as Vodafone is turning off 3G by the end of this year.

There are ways to mitigate interference, a blanket no is a terrible solution. The Government should change the rules so networks can install masts on NR land and NR should charge for access. It would literally be brilliant.

Why do so few tunnels have cells within them? This is literally the only country I can think of where getting service in a tunnel is a novelty, in every European country I've been to you get full signal in all tunnels. Why are so we useless?

Can anyone explain why our coverage on railways has been so bad for so long? Do people just not care?

I'm sure I hit black spots between Brussels and Hamburg.

I wonder if any secondary lines will get 5G. I'm thinking of the North Downs Line.

Having access to data that would enable me to do more work on the train.

Of course, I need to be able to log on to the train WiFi if that is the method used to access it. Whilst I can with some TOCs, some of them, Great Western Railway, don't seem to like my Crisco AnyConnect VPN software.

 

[MrJeeves]

Won't be an issue much longer as Vodafone is turning off 3G by the end of this year.

Hopefully... I remember when Ker told us it would be end of July!

 

[Gigabit]

Hopefully... I remember when Ker told us it would be end of July!

I don't think it was ever all the country by end of July. London seems to have been moved back, I wonder because of teething issues with coverage. Unfortunately at the moment you seem to get pushed onto EDGE when 3G used to work.

I'm sure I hit black spots between Brussels and Hamburg.

I wonder if any secondary lines will get 5G. I'm thinking of the North Downs Line.

Having access to data that would enable me to do more work on the train.

Of course, I need to be able to log on to the train WiFi if that is the method used to access it. Whilst I can with some TOCs, some of them, Great Western Railway, don't seem to like my Crisco AnyConnect VPN software.

There are no doubt black spots in other countries but they take a far more proactive response to coverage than we do. I would be surprised if any of the tunnels you went through didn't have coverage.

In Portugal the coverage was excellent, all tunnels covered. On my commute on the South Western Mainline and branch to Alton I have no coverage and sporadic and weak 3G/4G most of the time. It is woeful.

 

[al78]

Why are so we useless?

Because Britain.

 

[Gigabit]

How is this project progressing? Are any of the sites live yet?

 

[Gigabit]

How is this project progressing? Are any of the sites live yet?

Anyone?

 

[MrJeeves]

Nope

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Do we have any idea of the likelihood of other MNOs signing up?

 

[Gigabit]

Presumably Vodafone if the merger goes through with Three.

Surprised EE hasn't signed up as they are appalling on that line.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

As is VMO2.

 

[Gigabit]

As is VMO2.

Haven't tested VMO2 but looks dodgy in places on Cellmapper.

I wonder when the new sites will go live?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

May have been answered before, but is there a reason that Balcombe Tunnel had 4G throughout? It’s surprisingly the best place for connectivity on the line, on VMO2 at least.

 

[MrJeeves]

May have been answered before, but is there a reason that Balcombe Tunnel had 4G throughout? It’s surprisingly the best place for connectivity on the line, on VMO2 at least.

Vodafone operate a site on a bridge just before the tunnel on the northbound side, and O2 operate one just south. Combined, they are perfectly placed to blast 4G down the tunnel's length.

I can't share the data or the source as it's behind a login, but you can see the same on Cellmapper.

 

[Gigabit]

Has this been cancelled?

 

[stuving]

Has this been cancelled?

No, Cellnex just don't see why they should tell you what they are up to.

This is from last month's Digital Infrastructure Work Plan update from the London Borough of Bromley:

4G & 5G Mobile Networks – Macro Cells on Masts & Towers Infrastructure

3.20 Cellnex UK are presently finalising the negotiations with landowners, prior to the build phase, in order to install 2 new masts within the Anerley/Penge area. Planning approval was granted in April 2023 to enable this new infrastructure, which is required to improve 4G/5G mobile connectivity for both mobile phone users on Network Rail mainline trains (e.g London to Brighton Mainline railway), as well as residents and businesses in the surrounding area. The Economic Development and Planning teams within the Council also helped to facilitate their engagement process, including support with their pre-applications.

 

[MrJeeves]

No, Cellnex just don't see why they should tell you what they are up to.

This is from last month's Digital Infrastructure Work Plan update from the London Borough of Bromley:

Thanks for finding this. Was interesting to see some of the other communications information in it too!

 

[Gigabit]

No, Cellnex just don't see why they should tell you what they are up to.

This is from last month's Digital Infrastructure Work Plan update from the London Borough of Bromley:

Thanks. Are there any further updates?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I think I'm going to reach the state pension age before this project takes form.

 

[Gigabit]

I think I'm going to reach the state pension age before this project takes form.

It seems to have completely stalled.

Meanwhile the MNOs seem to be doing it on their own. It is baffling why the approach is so disjointed.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Perhaps it’s time to finally FOI this as much as humanly possible

 

[Gigabit]

The best decision Labour could make is to allow the MNOs to easily use Network Rail’s existing assets.

 

[Howardh]

On my trip down that line last week, my train to Brighton didn't have any internet assess at all (Thameslink) despite attempting to connect to it. Fully working though when I returned, so puzzled as to why the former occured? Is it something to do with the train or the signal?

 

[MrJeeves]

Don't quote me on this, but I think the site near Haywards Heath which I mentioned back in post 13 may be live now on EE?

There's a new site on CellMapper which I've mapped a few times over the last week but the location is a bit dodgy at the moment.

 

[Gigabit]

Don't quote me on this, but I think the site near Haywards Heath which I mentioned back in post 13 may be live now on EE?

There's a new site on CellMapper which I've mapped a few times over the last week but the location is a bit dodgy at the moment.

Is this one of the new Cellnex sites? I thought only Three had signed a contract to use them but perhaps it's been expanded?

I am still not totally sure how the new programme works, is it just that the MNOs jump on the sites they want?

 

[MrJeeves]

Is this one of the new Cellnex sites? I thought only Three had signed a contract to use them but perhaps it's been expanded?

The plan was always for all 4 MNOs, I believe. There's sufficient infrastructure (4 sets of radio panels) in the planning docs for this.

I am still not totally sure how the new programme works, is it just that the MNOs jump on the sites they want?

I believe so but contractual agreements could be imposed to force them to join every site rather than a selection.