Brighton to Manchester route?

[LudwigTails]

So it was not long ago through videos that i found out apparently at one point crosscountry services had operated to Brighton before to Manchester.
i am curious now, what was the route it took to get from Brighton to Manchester? Does anybody know?
And its such a shame that this service is discontinued (its only from 2023 i came to the UK) and it will be such a good connection up north without changing trains.

 

[jfollows]

http://1s76.com/ has a lot of information relevant to your query

 

[WesternLancer]

So it was not long ago through videos that i found out apparently at one point crosscountry services had operated to Brighton before to Manchester.
i am curious now, what was the route it took to get from Brighton to Manchester? Does anybody know?

They certainly did - a service with a long history. This excellent website is surely the definitive source on the subject - with timetables from the various years that give an idea of the routes used. As I recall the routes varied a bit over the years but I'm pretty sure it's all on this site.

Inter regional loco hauled services from Brighton 1979

Details of train services from Brighton to Manchester and vice versa. First year of service. Includes timetable pictures and stock workings.

www.1s76.com

It was a very useful service and its demise a great shame in my opinion. I have the same view on the Brighton - Bristol - Cardiff long running through service (with its origin / destination varying a bit over the years)

EDIT - just cross posted the same link as @jfollows

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Typically, in the later years, before being discontinued, it was Brighton, Haywards Heath, Gatwick Airport, East Croydon, Kensington Olympia, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Congleton, Macclesfield, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.

Some were routed via Redhill and Guildford between Gatwick Airport and Reading.

 

[LudwigTails]

oh thats an interesting route. I thought the service wouldve used the west london line (Clapham junction to watford junction) and then use the WCML from there.
How is it possible to get from Kensington Olympia to Reading on the GWML? I know that there is a bit of track leading to the left (when riding the East Croydon to Watford Junction service on the 377/7). When switching power from 3rd rail to overhead AC, you would go pass that point but the track nowadays leads to what it seems to be an IET depot. Other than that i cant really think of any way for trains to get from Kensington Olympia to Reading. Unless where that IET depot stands IS that track which get the service on to the GWML.

 

[jfollows]

https://kentrail.org.uk/north_pole_depot.htm shows the link to the GWML being used in 1985 which - as you suggest - was removed when North Pole Depot was built, initially for Eurostar.
It's still possible to make the connection today via Mitre Bridge Junction and South West Sidings and Acton.

In years such as 1986 there were services which used the WCML but they only ran for a few years. They were much faster, but missed out a lot of apparently important stops by doing so.

See North Pole Junction box at https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/6233909709/

 

[etr221]

After the direct curve from the West London onto the GWML was taken out, the service was diverted to run not quite via Willesden Junction, using the South West sidings link (upgraded to passenger standards at that time) towards Acton Wells, and then down onto the GWML at Acton Main line.

The origianal, pre WW1, LBSCR-LNWR joint 'Sunny South Express' (from Brighton/Eastbourne to Liverpool/Manchester) did use the West London through to Willesden Junction, where locos were changed, continuing via the LNWR main line.

 

[JonathanH]

And its such a shame that this service is discontinued (its only from 2023 i came to the UK) and it will be such a good connection up north without changing trains.

In practice it isn't a good connection up north, not least because when you got to Willesden, within a stones throw of a point two hours away from Manchester, you were still the best part of four hours away.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In practice it isn't a good connection up north, not least because when you got to Willesden, within a stones throw of a point two hours away from Manchester, you were still the best part of four hours away.

I think at one time it did use the WCML, with an electric/diesel loco chage at Mitre Bridge

 

[jfollows]

Before 1980 I used the 23:30 Manchester-Brighton if I wanted to get to London for an early start the next day, and because it was cheap.
Kensington Olympia was my local station in the summer of 1983 but the trains didn't stop there (for passengers) at that time, it was only later when they used Olympia.
Manchester-Brighton via London was much faster and I never used the through service other than the overnight one because of this. For some people a through train, especially avoiding a cross-London transfer, will have been preferable in spite of the cost in time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Precise routeings varied over the years, but in the early 2000's, after East Croydon, the Northbound train would usually pass (non stop) through Clapham Junction (platform 16) before crossing over Battersea Railway Bridge for Kensington Olympia. After calling there, it would then approach West London Junction, almost, but not quite joining the WCML, before curving round towards Acton Wells Junction, and then heading off (non stop) on the main line to Reading via Slough.

Those services routed via Redhill/Guildford obviously needed to reverse / change direction at Redhill.

 

[hexagon789]

So it was not long ago through videos that i found out apparently at one point crosscountry services had operated to Brighton before to Manchester.
i am curious now, what was the route it took to get from Brighton to Manchester? Does anybody know?
And its such a shame that this service is discontinued (its only from 2023 i came to the UK) and it will be such a good connection up north without changing trains.

Not purely Manchester.

Until the 2000s, also Glasgow and/or Edinburgh. Precise details varied through the 1990s.

The most unusual through XC working to Brighton was perhaps that from Hull & Leeds to Brighton (the opposing working terminated at Derby).

 

[nw1]

Not purely Manchester.

Until the 2000s, also Glasgow and/or Edinburgh. Precise details varied through the 1990s.

The most unusual through XC working to Brighton was perhaps that from Hull & Leeds to Brighton (the opposing working terminated at Derby).

The latter was the return working of a morning Paddington to Hull and Leeds (via Reading and Birmingham).

I believe the stock (2 sets) followed a 2-day pattern:
Day 1 - Paddington to Hull and Leeds (departed Reading 0730); Hull and Leeds to Brighton
Day 2 - Brighton to Manchester (departed Reading 1045); Manchester (approximately 1730) to Paddington

This was introduced in the 1984/85 timetable and I believe it also ran in 1985/86. At the time it was a relatively unusual aircon Mk-II working on the Reading XC corridor; ISTR the only other aircon services were the Wessex Scot (Poole-Glasgow and Edinburgh and v.v.) and Poole-Newcastle (and v.v.).

Precise routeings varied over the years, but in the early 2000's, after East Croydon, the Northbound train would usually pass (non stop) through Clapham Junction (platform 16) before crossing over Battersea Railway Bridge for Kensington Olympia. After calling there, it would then approach West London Junction, almost, but not quite joining the WCML, before curving round towards Acton Wells Junction, and then heading off (non stop) on the main line to Reading via Slough.

Those services routed via Redhill/Guildford obviously needed to reverse / change direction at Redhill.

In the 1986 edition, the services direct via the WCML actually called at Clapham Junction, thus offering a potential fast link from much of Surrey to the north.

 

[Class15]

After the direct curve from the West London onto the GWML was taken out

I didn’t know there was a direct WLL - GWML connection? Was this the one that is today a turnback with a small platform?

 

[TrainBoy98]

Not XC, but I also seem to remember an older TOC (Conex maybe?) running Brighton to Rugby? I know Southern used to do Brighton to Watford (and MK?) Via the WLL, but that was curtailed to start at South Croydon?

I have the same view on the Brighton - Bristol - Cardiff long running through service (with its origin / destination varying a bit over the years)

SouthWestTrains' Brighton-Paignton(IIRC?) was a nice run too in my early enthusiast days

 

[hexagon789]

The latter was the return working of a morning Paddington to Hull and Leeds (via Reading and Birmingham).

I believe the stock (2 sets) followed a 2-day pattern:
Day 1 - Paddington to Hull and Leeds (departed Reading 0730); Hull and Leeds to Brighton
Day 2 - Brighton to Manchester (departed Reading 1045); Manchester (approximately 1730) to Paddington

This was introduced in the 1984/85 timetable and I believe it also ran in 1985/86.

Yep, thats pretty much as I understand it too. There was a logic to it, but it must still have been an unusual destination to see at Paragon!

At the time it was a relatively unusual aircon Mk-II working on the Reading XC corridor; ISTR the only other aircon services were the Wessex Scot (Poole-Glasgow and Edinburgh and v.v.) and Poole-Newcastle (and v.v.).

That, I'm not sure on.

I presume the 'Reading XC' corridor are the Brighton and Poole services?

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

After the direct curve from the West London onto the GWML was taken out, the service was diverted to run not quite via Willesden Junction, using the South West sidings link (upgraded to passenger standards at that time) towards Acton Wells, and then down onto the GWML at Acton Main line.

This routing, when the service was withdrawn, was the cause of the weekly ‘parliamentary’ bus service which linked Ealing Broadway with Wandsworth Road. Probably also the reason why Ealing Broadway often had Cross Country timetables in the publicity racks

 

[WesternLancer]

SouthWestTrains' Brighton-Paignton(IIRC?) was a nice run too in my early enthusiast days

Yes, when did that run - or cease running? I think it must have been before my time in Sussex.

 

[sussexbythesea]

Yes, when did that run - or cease running? I think it must have been before my time in Sussex.

It ended as part of the removal of South West Trains from Brighton in December 2007. Miss it still!

 

[WesternLancer]

It ended as part of the removal of South West Trains from Brighton in December 2007. Miss it still!

Aha - I think in that case it started after I left sussex then, which was well before the SWR era

I was thinking it was connected with earlier decades Brighton - Exeter service - ran by Hastings DEMUs at one point I think - but had origins back in Southern Railway days. That might have ended in the 1970s.

This being the service I was thinking of - tho seems to have run in later years than I realised. As you say a useful through route.

Brighton – Exeter St. Davids 1977 – 1987 – Railway Correspondence & Travel Society

features.rcts.org.uk

Thanks for the link.

 

[ajs]

Brighton - Paignton service reversed at Portsmouth & Southsea rather than going straight across Farlington Junction.

 

[6Gman]

Not XC, but I also seem to remember an older TOC (Conex maybe?) running Brighton to Rugby? I know Southern used to do Brighton to Watford (and MK?) Via the WLL, but that was curtailed to start at South Croydon?


SouthWestTrains' Brighton-Paignton(IIRC?) was a nice run too in my early enthusiast days

Let us not forget that (many years ago) there were daily services from Brighton to Bournemouth, Cardiff and Plymouth!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not purely Manchester.
Until the 2000s, also Glasgow and/or Edinburgh. Precise details varied through the 1990s.
The most unusual through XC working to Brighton was perhaps that from Hull & Leeds to Brighton (the opposing working terminated at Derby).

The Scotland service had the name "Sussex Scot" for a while, matching the "Dorset Scot" and "Devon Scot" which also reached the south coast.
Not forgetting a Liverpool-Folkestone service via Reading, Kenny O, Bromley South and Faversham.
All the routes via Kensington Olympia got cut back to Reading eventually.
Pathing via Acton Wells and on the Southern was always a problem.

 

[D6130]

When I was a guard at Brighton - from November 1983 - the Brighton-Manchester/Wolverhampton trains used to run via Kensington Olympia and then onto the Great Western main Line at North Pole Junction. At that time we only worked them to and from East Croydon, relieving - or being relieved there by - Norwood Junction men, who worked to/from Reading. However the May 1986 timetable brought about a whole new scenario, with the early morning Northbound service from Brighton was diverted to run from Newhaven Marine - connecting with the overnight ferry from Dieppe - and formed of a nine car Mark 2d/e/f set in the then new Inter-City livery. This involved an early morning ECS working from Brighton to Newhaven Marine, where the guard had to uncouple and couple the running-round class 47/4 loco and then rapidly change out of his/her greasy overalls and gloves to perform commercial duties as presentably as possibly. This was also the time when the train gained a Clapham Junction stop and was diverted to run via the West Coast Main Line with a change to/from class 86/2 haulage at Willesden West Junction (Northbound) or Mitre Bridge Junction (Southbound)....and - of course - the poor old guard had to get dirty again uncoupling and coupling the two locos. Oh well....it kept us fit, I suppose! East Sussex commuters soon cottoned-on to this 'luxury' service and started driving to Newhaven - or joining at the new Haywards Heath stop - in large numbers for the 06 25 departure - enjoying coffee and a bacon roll in the buffet - before changing at Clapham Junction for either Victoria or Waterloo. The guard had to remember to announce that only the front six coaches would be platformed at Clapham Junction and it was a bit of a nightmare checking the doors and signal and then giving the right-away from the sharply-curving and unstaffed platform 16....especially when the brake vehicle was marshalled at the rear, which it usually was. Green flag from half-way across the platform opposite an open intermediate carriage door....then leap across into said open door and slam it behind you as the 47 pulls away. Health & Safety....what Health & Safety? Happy Days!

 

[Taunton]

Brighton - Paignton service reversed at Portsmouth & Southsea rather than going straight across Farlington Junction.

A principal traffic flow on this axis was Royal Navy traffic connecting their two principal bases, Portsmouth and Plymouth, Sometimes services had to make connections at Fareham, other times they ran into and back out of Portsmouth. Not just naval staff transfers, there were a lot of families split between the two, or living in one but the ship operated from the other. In steam days the train ran right through, via Okehampton and stopping at Devonport for the dockyard.

 

[WesternLancer]

When I was a guard at Brighton - from November 1983 - the Brighton-Manchester/Wolverhampton trains used to run via Kensington Olympia and then onto the Great Western main Line at North Pole Junction. At that time we only worked them to and from East Croydon, relieving - or being relieved there by - Norwood Junction men, who worked to/from Reading. However the May 1986 timetable brought about a whole new scenario, with the early morning Northbound service from Brighton was diverted to run from Newhaven Marine - connecting with the overnight ferry from Dieppe - and formed of a nine car Mark 2d/e/f set in the then new Inter-City livery. This involved an early morning ECS working from Brighton to Newhaven Marine, where the guard had to uncouple and couple the running-round class 47/4 loco and then rapidly change out of his/her greasy overalls and gloves to perform commercial duties as presentably as possibly. This was also the time when the train gained a Clapham Junction stop and was diverted to run via the West Coast Main Line with a change to/from class 86/2 haulage at Willesden West Junction (Northbound) or Mitre Bridge Junction (Southbound)....and - of course - the poor old guard had to get dirty again uncoupling and coupling the two locos. Oh well....it kept us fit, I suppose! East Sussex commuters soon cottoned-on to this 'luxury' service and started driving to Newhaven - or joining at the new Haywards Heath stop - in large numbers for the 06 25 departure - enjoying coffee and a bacon roll in the buffet - before changing at Clapham Junction for either Victoria or Waterloo. The guard had to remember to announce that only the front six coaches would be platformed at Clapham Junction and it was a bit of a nightmare checking the doors and signal and then giving the right-away from the sharply-curving and unstaffed platform 16....especially when the brake vehicle was marshalled at the rear, which it usually was. Green flag from half-way across the platform opposite an open intermediate carriage door....then leap across into said open door and slam it behind you as the 47 pulls away. Health & Safety....what Health & Safety? Happy Days!

Great to read these memories! Thanks for posting them.

 

[nw1]

That, I'm not sure on.

I presume the 'Reading XC' corridor are the Brighton and Poole services?

Brighton and Poole plus Paddington and Portsmouth. Basically every XC service passing through the Reading area.

Let us not forget that (many years ago) there were daily services from Brighton to Bournemouth, Cardiff and Plymouth!

As recently as the 90s there was an hourly Hove to Bournemouth!

 

[hexagon789]

Brighton and Poole plus Paddington and Portsmouth. Basically every XC service passing through the Reading area.

Right, thanks.

I'll have a wee look at the Carriage Working, see what was booked air-con.

 

[jfollows]

1984/5 PA WTT air-con workings show as
1E54 06:54 Paddington-Hull
1M88 06:25 Poole-Manchester
1S39 07:34 Poole-Glasgow
1M50 08:50 Brighton-Manchester
1E63 09:40 Poole-Newcastle
1M07 12:54 Brighton-Manchester
1E13 14:13 Portsmouth-York
1M23 14:40 Poole-Liverpool
1M40 17:05 Poole-Liverpool
1M41 18:48 Brighton-Derby

1O03 06:50 Liverpool-Poole
1O27 06:45 York-Portsmouth
1O15 08:58 Manchester-Poole
1O74 09:58 Manchester-Brighton
1O19 08:05 Newcastle-Poole
1O25 09:50 Glasgow-Poole (Weymouth SO dated)
1O23 15:40 Liverpool-Poole
1V16 17:28 Manchester-Paddington

however there's clearly some errors because of the mis-match in numbers, so should probably include also
1O86 14:00 Leeds (Hull)-Brighton
1O62 06:01 Derby-Brighton

I think with these extra two the stock workings balance. Whether or not the stock matched the working timetable is a different issue.

 

[D6130]

1O86 14:00 Leeds (Hull)-Brighton
1O62 06:01 Derby-Brighton

Those were still non-air con Mark 2a/b/c sets in the 1984-85 timetable. I worked them regularly.