Bristol - Carlisle service

[sleepy_hollow]

I once travelled from Sea Mills to Silloth often enough to regard it as routine, but have not done so since 2018. Planning to do so again I find the service changed.
Formerly an XC from Bristol to New Street arrived there about xx54, connecting into a Euston-Scotland train that departed about xx12, arriving in Carlisle on the preferred journey shortly after 1400 to connect with the 1440 bus for Silloth.

This outward journey generally worked, despite inevitable nervous minutes as the XC train dawdled slightly late through the tunnels after University. The timekeeping to Carlisle was then usually adequate, bearing in mind the generous connection time with the bus; we only once had to sprint from railway station to bus station in seven minutes.

The pattern now offered by the Network Rail planner seems to give a similar arrival time, for example on 7 March, but with a tighter connection at Birmingham, into an XX07 Birmingham to Preston Avanti service for an additional eight minute change to a Transpennine Express at Preston. The Avanti to Preston presumably running in the path previously used by the Euston-Scotland train. The Euston to Scotland service appears to be passing through Birmingham shortly before the hour so no longer connecting with the arrival from Bristol, appearing to be one of two Euston to Scotland services per hour, the other using the Stafford route.

The journey seems to require rather more clockwork like precision than before on a railway that tends to be a bit wobbly everywhere. The XC to Manchester service leaving Bristol on the hour currently not starting until later it does not seem to provide a way of restoring the margin at New Street, unless we travel later, risking aiming for the later buses from Carlisle.

Is the current situation temporary as part of post-Covid reductions and recovery from the Avanti problems or is it a permanent change?


I seem to have underestimated the problem. Moving on to check fares I discover that for many timings, such as the one starting at 0854 from Sea Mills for the 1410 Carlisle arrival National Rail do not offer a fare for 7 March. XC expands this to saying that the times are not confirmed.

At least National Rail seems to offer the Avanti off peak return at 112.10, for an unsuitable journey time, which seems to have no relevant time restrictions (After 0415), XC are not currently offering return fares.

This lack of forward planning presumably relates to the Carstairs work.

 

[The Planner]

Is the current situation temporary as part of post-Covid reductions and recovery from the Avanti problems or is it a permanent change?

Permanent.

 

[sprinterguy]

XX:07 from Birmingham New Street is the new standard hourly departure time for the Euston - Birmingham - Scotland services since the December timetable change, which saw a bit of a timetable recast. They're curtailed at Preston on the 7th March and surrounding dates due to the Carstairs engineering work and, presumably, the limited number of platforms available for turning trains at Carlisle.

There's no other Avanti service towards Scotland that runs via Birmingham, just the XX:07; with the hourly Avanti service that continues from Preston to Carlisle being the more direct train from Euston via the Trent Valley that would usually continue to Glasgow.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Thank you both. It is clear that in attempting to use RTT to understand the nature of the changes I imagined a completely spurious BHM to PRE service about 7 March.

I suppose the permanent change is an eventual result of amputating the W Scotland arm of cross-country. The connection in BHM worked reasonably well, but a little rearrangement elsewhere and it has become more tenuous. Although still within the nominal BHM connection time the reality of XC entering BHM makes it somewhat risky. Possibly in the past the connection was partly helped by the train from Euston often running a bit late.

The availability situation seems to be settling down a bit. XC are now offering me the Avanti set off peak return, although not on the trains I want, with some trains still shown as not confirmed. So I can get a flexible ticket, but not yet with reservations.

 

[30907]

With a 2hr 20min potential wait in Carlisle for the next bus, I would hesitate to risk those connections, although they are technically fine, so I would start an hour earlier or later and reduce stress levels.

The good news is that the 0900 BRI-MAN is shown to run in the summer timetable, which would make things easier.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Things weren't as bad straight after Virgin lost the Cross Country franchise and they ran the Birmingham to Scotland services on an hourly basis, leaving New Street at xx20 past every hour, calling at Wolverhampton, Crewe etc.

Then when Virgin combined the Birmingham to Scotland services with the London to Wolverhamptons they then retimed them to depart New Street at xx15, calling at Sandwell and Dudley, Wolverhampton, Crewe etc.

Then more recently it got even worse with them now leaving New Street at xx07, presumably to give them a path which gives them enough extra time to fit in the additional Stafford calls, although I notice most no longer call at Sandwell.

If only Cross Country ran some trains directly between Bristol and Preston.. It'll never happen again. But I suppose a regular hourly Bristol to Crewe (terminating at Manchester Piccadilly) connecting into a semi fast or stopping Crewe to Preston shuttle which could stop at Winsford/Hartford/Acton Bridge alongside Warrington and Wigan then Preston wouldn't be too bad.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

With a 2hr 20min potential wait in Carlisle for the next bus, I would hesitate to risk those connections, although they are technically fine, so I would start an hour earlier or later and reduce stress levels.

The good news is that the 0900 BRI-MAN is shown to run in the summer timetable, which would make things easier.

I am tempted, although going earlier will prevent using the CNM/BHM split, so cost about GBP 8 more, and going late will guarantee 1 hour 40 min, or thereabouts, wait in Carlisle rather than the risk of two hours 40. Perhaps I shall investigate passing the time by seeking a Cardiff to Nottingham XC at Newport, which presumably passes through BHM.

 

[Falcon1200]

Bear in mind that the two-hourly Birmingham-Glasgow (alternating with the two-hourly Edinburgh) service has not been fully reinstated; The 0907 and 1307 departures from New St run to Blackpool instead.

 

[irish_rail]

Things weren't as bad straight after Virgin lost the Cross Country franchise and they ran the Birmingham to Scotland services on an hourly basis, leaving New Street at xx20 past every hour, calling at Wolverhampton, Crewe etc.

Then when Virgin combined the Birmingham to Scotland services with the London to Wolverhamptons they then retimed them to depart New Street at xx15, calling at Sandwell and Dudley, Wolverhampton, Crewe etc.

Then more recently it got even worse with them now leaving New Street at xx07, presumably to give them a path which gives them enough extra time to fit in the additional Stafford calls, although I notice most no longer call at Sandwell.

If only Cross Country ran some trains directly between Bristol and Preston.. It'll never happen again. But I suppose a regular hourly Bristol to Crewe (terminating at Manchester Piccadilly) connecting into a semi fast or stopping Crewe to Preston shuttle which could stop at Winsford/Hartford/Acton Bridge alongside Warrington and Wigan then Preston wouldn't be too bad.

Completely agree with this. Stafford gets additional calls at the expense of the entire South west which now suffers this p*ss poor connection into trains to the north west and Scotland. Its about time the railway was run for the good of the passenger and not for what is operationally convenient. One train a day from Plymouth to Manchester , a 4 car voyager. Oh for the days when we had several trains to Liverpool / Manchester / Scotland the quick way. But a decent connection at New st (not an easy station to navigate at the best of times) is surely not a lot to ask?....

 

[The Planner]

Completely agree with this. Stafford gets additional calls at the expense of the entire South west which now suffers this p*ss poor connection into trains to the north west and Scotland. Its about time the railway was run for the good of the passenger and not for what is operationally convenient. One train a day from Plymouth to Manchester , a 4 car voyager. Oh for the days when we had several trains to Liverpool / Manchester / Scotland the quick way. But a decent connection at New st (not an easy station to navigate at the best of times) is surely not a lot to ask?....

No it doesn't, its becuase the entire WCML is re-written out of Euston. Sorry, but you are not going to pivot the WCML on one connection.

 

[najaB]

Its about time the railway was run for the good of the passenger and not for what is operationally convenient.

For the good of the passenger* and for the good of passengers are, inevitably, often not the same thing. A robust timetable that is (industrial relations aside) deliverable is of greater benefit to more people than one which maintains any specific connection.

*Nine out of ten times, this can be read as "me".

 

[irish_rail]

No it doesn't, its becuase the entire WCML is re-written out of Euston. Sorry, but you are not going to pivot the WCML on one connection.

But not everyone wants to go to London. More so now than ever. Its something like a 5 minute connection southbound at New Street off the avanti Scotland service for the XC to the south west. Why are these passengers not considered? If this country ever wants to be levelled up the politicians need to take an interest in this kind of thing. Or are we content to carry on with London as the centre of the universe whether we like it or not. Even just a handful of direct trains a day on the SW to NW axis would make a difference and speed up journey times considerably as they would eliminate the now inevitable hour at New St. We have one train at 1153 from Plymouth to Manchester, thats a start, but something earlier (say in the 0827 current gap) a service from Plymouth to Liverpool or Manchester, better still Scotland, and then something mid afternoon as well, the service would be viable. The stumbling block is i guess traincrew depots in the current system. In an ideal world an Avanti Liverpool or Preston driver would be allowed to work a XC voyager from Lime St or Preston to Birmingham, and thus the additional costs would be minimal , but in our crazy railway, XC would probably need to open a new Liverpool or Preston depot, which won't happen.

 

[The Planner]

But not everyone wants to go to London. More so now than ever. Its something like a 5 minute connection southbound at New Street off the avanti Scotland service for the XC to the south west. Why are these passengers not considered? If this country ever wants to be levelled up the politicians need to take an interest in this kind of thing. Or are we content to carry on with London as the centre of the universe whether we like it or not. Even just a handful of direct trains a day on the SW to NW axis would make a difference and speed up journey times considerably as they would eliminate the now inevitable hour at New St.

XC could well have made requests for that to happen, as they would have been part of the process and the event steering groups, but in general the only connection that is top tier to them at New St is the Bournemouth Manchester connecting northbound into the SW-NE axis.

 

[najaB]

But not everyone wants to go to London. More so now than ever.

That may be true, but the trains still need to get there, so the timetable is written to get them there.

 

[irish_rail]

XC could well have made requests for that to happen, as they would have been part of the process and the event steering groups, but in general the only connection that is top tier to them at New St is the Bournemouth Manchester connecting northbound into the SW-NE axis.

Well thats an example of why XC really is a very poor TOC and not really fit for purpose.....

 

[irish_rail]

That may be true, but the trains still need to get there, so the timetable is written to get them there.

But would retiming to give these London trains an extra 5 minutes at New St by removing one stop elsewhere (say Stafford) really be so problematic. At least a 10 minute connection at New St is potentially doable. Or is Stafford really so important?

 

[najaB]

But would retiming to give these London trains an extra 5 minutes at New St by removing one stop elsewhere (say Stafford) really be so problematic.

Five minutes here to get your ten minute connection at New Street means finding a path through the highly contested tracks on the approaches, which means retiming stops elsewhere, which means bottlenecks elsewhere, which means retiming stops...

A change to the timetable at New Street can feasibly mean that people miss connections at Crewe, Preston or even Glasgow Central or Edinburgh.

 

[The Planner]

But would retiming to give these London trains an extra 5 minutes at New St by removing one stop elsewhere (say Stafford) really be so problematic. At least a 10 minute connection at New St is potentially doable. Or is Stafford really so important?

Chances are you got the Stafford stop for free and if you didnt stop then you are just catching something else up. Retiming at New St is putting a massive boulder in a pond compared to a pebble. If it messes up something south of Rugby or Crewe to Weaver etc then it unravels quickly.

 

[irish_rail]

Five minutes here to get your ten minute connection at New Street means finding a path through the highly contested tracks on the approaches, which means retiming stops elsewhere, which means bottlenecks elsewhere, which means retiming stops...

A change to the timetable at New Street can feasibly mean that people miss connections at Crewe, Preston or even Glasgow Central or Edinburgh.

I guess the other way of looking at it is could the XC be more easily retimed 5 minutes in either direction, but I suspect the paths are just as tight there. It is an unfortunate situation compared with the XC network of old , however you look at it.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

As this is now in Trip Reports, I shall contribute some historic trip reports.

I realise that what I described as 'routine', was a period of about three years, probably with not much more than half a dozen journeys. This resulted in one partial refund, at least two complete refunds, a free banana and a midnight taxi ride from BHM to SML.

So we shall probably venture boldly upon the railways of England fortified by the knowledge that every tight connection on an authorised itinerary is a chance of a refund.

All the problems were north of Birmingham. The partial refund was northbound, due to waiting at Preston for the driver to arrive from Scotland; this creating the seven minute sprint to the bus station. The others were on the more robust southbound journey, the taxi ride and banana being associated with the nearly three hour hold at Penrith due to branches near Oxenholme repeatedly tripping the traction supply. Owing to diversion of the train down the Trent Valley that one also got half an hour for a hundred people on a chilly night at Stafford. The other complete refund was a simple cancellation of the train from Carlisle. I also recall rolling gently across a broken rail just north of Wolverhampton and something about following a delayed freight through Cheshire, probably separate occasions.

I know small samples are not statistically valid, but sometimes I do wonder. The Silloth bus never failed, although we did get a photo finish with the southbound train one day when there were roadworks.


I think we are also entitled to wonder when something that has been available for years is declared to be no longer feasible, to wit, the reasonable connection between XC and Virgin/Avanti in BHM. I may have decorated my journey with starting in a suburb at one end and taking a twenty five mile bus ride at the other, but the problem is connection between two sets of 200 kph capable trains running entirely on the main lines through a major city and interchange point in the centre of England, and the journey is only about 300 miles.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

********

16 Feb 2023.

So, with the journey now firmly planned as out on Tuesday 7 March, and back on Saturday 11 March, and deciding to use the Avanti-set Off Peak Return, valid anytime after 0415, according to BR Fares, break of journey permitted on the return, it is time to investigate tickets.

We seem to have a generally two hourly arrival pattern neatly timed to arrive in Carlisle at XX47, 7 minutes after the XX40 bus leaves. I suppose this might improve to hourly at some stage as Covid recedes, but not to the extent of getting the connection in Carlisle much below an hour.

Cross Country show the Off Peak ticket as 'not available' on some of the return trains. I am suprised, guessing that it means that the timetable is not yet confirmed for 11 March, although the previous message was 'not confirmed'. Real Time Trains show plenty of southbound services on 11 March, with the BHM trains every two hours.



XC also say that this ticket requires reservations, but does not seem to insist, pressing continue takes you on to the next screen. I intend to make reservations, it is the implication that this is a booked train only ticket that is worrying.



Avanti offer the options of 'Open Return' in which no information about return trains is offered, or, if I select 'specific date' Saturday 11 March and all later weekends are shown as greyed out preventing attempts to reserve, or to check ticket validity, raising some concern about availability. Presumably this is due to late confirmation of the Carstairs related timetable.




The TOC websites generally define the restrictions for the Avanti Off Peak Return as 'Off Peak Trains', leaving you to work out what is offpeak from whether the website offers it, BR Fares defines this as any train after 0415 on weekdays, apparently unrestricted on weekends, but BR Fares is not an official website. Is there a TOC source that gives the same detail of information?

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Silloth Trip Report

And so to the Trip Report, before it becomes ancient history.

Summary:
Outward: TPE train 5 min late, arrived 2 hours early.
Return: TPE train cancelled, arrived 1 hour early.

Planning (March 2023, during Carstairs blockade):

Sea Mills to Silloth; As planned:

Out: 7 March 2023: SML d 0652 BRI a 0715; BRI d 0735 BHM a 0855; BHM d 0907 PRE a 1052; PRE d 11:41 CAR a 12:47 (BUS Carlisle d 1440 Silloth a 1555)

Return: 11 March 2023: CAR d 1433 MAN a 1626; MAN d 1703 BRI a 20:07; BRI d 20:42 SML 2104.

Booking Process

About a fortnight before the trip National Rail and Cross Country were showing one afternoon return train on the Saturday as confirmed, Avanti still showing no confirmed return trains, due to the Carstairs work, so we booked with XC. I guess Avanti were not showing confirmed trains because the confirmed journey was with TPE to Manchester then XC to Bristol.

Outbound Journey

On the outbound journey the connection at Birmingham worked smoothly, could be the first time the train from Bristol has ever arrived in New Street on time. The Avanti for Preston was already waiting in an adjacent platform, so easy to find. Seat reservations were a little odd. The reservation system had seated my wife at opposite ends of the carriage (F), on boarding we found the carriage largely empty, most seats showing 'Reserved from Euston', apart from a few with different places. The 'Reserved from Euston' seats remained unoccupied throughout the journey. Is 'Reserved from Euston' Avanti-speak for 'Unreserved'?

Preston was easy, the booked connection for the 1052 arrival was at 11:41 but a the TPE for Carlisle ptoviding a very tight connection at Preston wa srunning about ten minutes late so we took that instead reaching Carlisle in good time for the 1244 bus rather than the 1444 so arriving two hours early in Silloth.

It is about five years since I was in the north. I had forgotten the slight bite in the air, the vast empty spaces, the vast empty trains. In the roughly ten minutes we were at Preston an endless stream of endless electric trains came and went from all directions. We could do with a bit of this 'levellling up' in Bristol. Possibly the trains are empty because the dominant advertising on north country stations seems to be threats of a one hundred pound penalty fare.

Return Journey

On the return journey we were booked on the 1433 TPE from Carlisle with a connection in Manchester. Although the bus got us into Carlisle in time for an earlier train we decided to stick to the booked journey and have a light lunch in M&S. On arriving at the station we found the 1433 cancelled so, as directed, boarded an Avanti at 1446, changing at Preston. During the journey we spent some time on the Internet checking the connections at Birmingham, discovering that the old trick of making a cross platform change at Wolverhampton to get one train ahead at BHM no longer works, the train from Manchester now running ahead of the train from Carlisle. We did find a very tight connection at BHM, with a train from Manchester an hour before the one on which we had been booked. So, speed walking* right across New Street in about two minutes we got to Bristol Temple Meads in time to catch the 2004 arrival at Sea Mills instead of the 2104.

*(At 70 I no longer run with a rucksack)

Review

Obviously, in view of the early arrivals, a very successful trip, but possibly more due to passenger initiative, and the substantial margins due to the gaps in the bus timetable than anything else. It does tend to confirm the feeling, as an occasional traveller, that something always happens on a train journey.

Future

With the tighter outbound connection at BHM, and the gradual return of the BRI-MAN trains it seems possible that travelling to Carlisle via Manchester could become more reliable, although slower, than changing at BHM. For continuing to Silloth this might depend on the interaction with the bus timetable. I am not sure about ticket validity, the Avanti Off Peak return from BRI-CAR has validity of 'Avanti and connections'. I do not know whether an Avanti train on the outbound journey only is normally sufficient to meet that, or whether the original booking was valid without Avanti on the return only because of the Carstairs work.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Hi Sleepy Hollow,

Many thanks for the thoroughly enjoyable read.

It was so much easier when Virgin ran direct trains every 2 hours between Carlisle/Preston and the South West.

Looking online, it appears as if tickets between Carlisle and Bristol are route any permitted, with a "2T" (valid after 04:15) restriction, so I imagine they're valid on any trains at all. I'd imagine it would also be valid via Manchester on TPE to connect into trains towards Birmingham and Bristol, as well as the more logical route you took yourself through Preston/Crewe etc.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

...

Looking online, it appears as if tickets between Carlisle and Bristol are route any permitted, with a "2T" (valid after 04:15) restriction, so I imagine they're valid on any trains at all. I'd imagine it would also be valid via Manchester on TPE to connect into trains towards Birmingham and Bristol, as well as the more logical route you took yourself through Preston/Crewe etc.

You are correct, and our tickets say so. Either I imagined the 'Avanti & Connections' or it has applied some time in the past.

 

[voyagerdude220]

You are correct, and our tickets say so. Either I imagined the 'Avanti & Connections' or it has applied some time in the past.

Maybe you've previously used Advance tickets which would have had the Avanti and connections routing?

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Maybe you've previously used Advance tickets which would have had the Avanti and connections routing?

We have not used Advances, we have usually used a three way split, but the BHM to Wigton section has always been one ticket, but the BHM to Wigton fare does not show that restriction either, so it remains a mystery, perhaps I just checked an Advance fare to see if it suited.

We have always booked to Wigton because it is in the same fare group as Carlisle, and might possibly be useful, but so far it has never been advantageous.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

I had meant to include in the original report that the TPE guard came through the train checking for passengers travelling onward to Glasgow, this being during the Carstairs blockade and advising them about the rail replacement bus connection. They also discussed the possible Scot Rail alternative via the other route, this taking two and a half hours rather than two, but said passengers should check ticket acceptance at Carlisle. In view of the duration of the Carstairs blockade I am surprised that acceptance was still an open question. Perhaps so many people would prefer 2.5 hours on a train to 2.0 hours on a coach that the companies were not prepared to risk overcrowding. The number of people travelling beyond Carlisle seemed to be small, although the number of passengers on the TPE train was also small.