Britain’s relationship with the EU post Brexit.

[Enthusiast]

Yes, but what about zero-hours contracts, the EU Working Time Directive, ECJ cases on 'self-employed' taxi drivers etc.? An at least partial ban on zero-hours contracts is likely going to coming into force soon if one is honest about it.

These will be matters for the UK government to determine. The idea of Brexit is to repatriate such matters to the UK and not abrogate the responsibility for them to a foreign bureaucracy. You obviously trust the EU to act more in your interests than you do an elected UK government. Unfortunately 17.4m people disagreed with that stance. The trouble is that along with all the things you like about the EU there are enormous numbers of far more important issues they determine which many people don't like.

I'm curious to see how long it will take the telecoms giants to re-introduce roaming charges?

I'm hopeful that we will do the same as Switzerland and stay 'aligned', but only time will tell.

It's unlikely, unless their electorate capitulates, that Switzerland will stay aligned with much at all in the not too distant future. The EU does not like the current arrangement where Switzerland complies with the EU on matters it agrees with and does not comply on matters that it does not. The EU has already taken steps to "unalign" Switzerland's Stock Market with those of EU members:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-s...m-pain-for-swiss-stock-exchange-idUKKCN1VQ2FG

This follows the breakdown of talks on a "comprehensive framework" which the EU is insisting must replace the current SwissU relationship. As is not uncommon, the EU's answer to countries failing to fall into line with their requirements is punishment. The UK can look forward to plenty of this.

 

[Peter Kelford]

These will be matters for the UK government to determine. The idea of Brexit is to repatriate such matters to the UK and not abrogate the responsibility for them to a foreign bureaucracy. You obviously trust the EU to act more in your interests than you do an elected UK government. Unfortunately 17.4m people disagreed with that stance. The trouble is that along with all the things you like about the EU there are enormous numbers of far more important issues they determine which many people don't like.

Like the idea that we ought not to be racist and respect farmers, catering staff etc as honest, hardworking professionals in their respective fields rather than as part of an underclass of servants?

The EU A] has its own balancing mechanism as the group balances the interests of all members. It is thus unlikely to become a continent governed by communism, fascism or their 21st-century equivalents, B] is elected proportionately, meaning that the number of votes cast is more similar to the view of the people.

The UK government is elected on an essentially archaic system designed to return feudal lords as MPs so that democracy is seen to exist.

 

[Enthusiast]

B] is elected proportionately, meaning that the number of votes cast is more similar to the view of the people.

Only the EU Parliament is elected (by any method) and that is as useful as a chocolate fireguard. The important positions were power is concentrated see appointments made by a "tap on the shoulder."

I don't recall farmers being viewed as an underclass of servants being government policy.

The "balancing" feature you mention has to balance the requirements of 27 very disparate nations and the usual result is that either one or two nations (the usual suspects) get what they want at the expense of everybody else or everybody gets what nobody wants. As far as the colour of the government goes, UK voters do not seem to relish the idea of an extreme government on either wing and it doesn't seem to need a foreign influence to prevent it. Such an option was de facto available last time round and it was soundly rejected. However, if the UK electorate wants a communist government (or one of any other type) it has the right to elect one and not to be outvoted by foreign voters. As far as the voting system goes, a referendum was held on the issue in 2011 with an alternative system along the lines that you prefer as an option. It was rejected by more than two to one.

I think the fundamental difference between those who voted to leave and those who voted to remain is simply that Leavers want to see the UK electorate elect its government and for that government to be able to act without outside political influence. I don't know of any other major nation which is subject to widespread legislation framed and enacted by a foreign institution. Nor do I know of any who are subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign court to settle everyday disputes. That difference is intractable and that's why a referendum was necessary.

 

[dosxuk]

I think the fundamental difference between those who voted to leave and those who voted to remain is simply that Leavers want to see the UK electorate elect its government and for that government to be able to act without outside political influence. I don't know of any other major nation which is subject to widespread legislation framed and enacted by a foreign institution. Nor do I know of any who are subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign court to settle everyday disputes. That difference is intractable and that's why a referendum was necessary.

You could just have put that the difference is that those who wanted to leave wanted to go back in time.

Very few nations have no external rules they have to abide by, don't have to follow decisions made by multi-national courts and can make all their decisions in a vacuum. The UK still has to abide by rules we didn't come up with or specifically agree to, and as long as we want to interact with other nations that will continue.

Just to take your examples though - the US has to follow all the EU rules about what is able to be sold in the EU, including safety / hygiene / health regulations, without any say in those rules, whenever they sell something to the EU. Obviously, Germany and France follow lots of rules, or do you not count them as major nations? Then there's all the signatories to the UN, the WTO, the Geneva convention, or the ECHR - all examples of organisations who are still directly affecting how the UK is run and what we can do.

You want no external influence on how the UK is run? Either close the borders and refuse to acknowledge the rest of the world, or turn the clocks back to the days of the Empire where we were the ones setting the rules for everyone else.

 

[jon0844]

It was mentioned above that there are rules/laws that leavers didn't like, but I am not sure in three years I've ever seen any examples given.

Over the weekend on another forum, the best answer I got was about incandescent lightbulbs being banned, followed by an admission that the UK may have been a supporter of this idea (indeed, I think it was one of the primary instigators). So that wasn't really a reason.

The other is that we're not allowed to show imperial weights/pricing in shops, which I am not sure is true and in any case, we're a metric country and I don't think that many people are still alive who don't know the metric system.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think the fundamental difference between those who voted to leave and those who voted to remain is simply that Leavers want to see the UK electorate elect its government and for that government to be able to act without outside political influence. I don't know of any other major nation which is subject to widespread legislation framed and enacted by a foreign institution. Nor do I know of any who are subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign court to settle everyday disputes. That difference is intractable and that's why a referendum was necessary.

Some interesting ideas there. How was the UK's position as a member of the EU so fundamentally different to that of any other member? In fact thanks to all the opt-outs it could be argued we already had a more favourable position regarding freedom to make our own decisions than any other country. The real reason is nothing to do with us believing our interpretation of democracy is somehow superior to anyone else's, an argument that would actually be difficult to make, and much more to do with having an island mentality. Maybe geography makes that unavoidable.

 

[87 027]

The other is that we're not allowed to show imperial weights/pricing in shops, which I am not sure is true and in any case, we're a metric country and I don't think that many people are still alive who don't know the metric system.

Indeed - the metric thing is a something of a myth. All the EU stipulated is that national measurements (imperial etc.) may not be displayed more prominently than metric. It was Whitehall who gold plated this resulting in the misconception that imperial measurements were banned altogether.

I find it quite disheartening that people are reluctant to acknowledge that (i) we had a seat at the top table where European standards were formulated, and (ii) Whitehall has a well known tendency to embellish and gold plate beyond what is agreed at that top table. I vaguely remember a report from the mid 2000s which compared a sample of original EU legislation to the corresponding UK implementation and found that in extreme cases the UK version was more than double the length with all the additional clarifications, provisions and stipulations that were not in the original

 

[najaB]

I think the fundamental difference between those who voted to leave and those who voted to remain is simply that Leavers want to see the UK electorate elect its government and for that government to be able to act without outside political influence.

It's a good thing then that the UK isn't a member of NATO, the Council of Europe, the G8, the UN...

 

[Peter Kelford]

I don't recall farmers being viewed as an underclass of servants being government policy.

Fruit-pickers?

It's a good thing then that the UK isn't a member of NATO, the Council of Europe, the G8, the UN...

The WTO, the OECD.

 

[dosxuk]

It's a good thing then that the UK isn't a member of NATO, the Council of Europe, the G8, the UN...

Never forget leavers favourite, the European Court for Human Rights, which is a separate entity to the EU. So all those terrorists the EU wouldn't let us send home because it will affect their human rights, yup, still stuck with them.

I don't think that particular bombshell has dropped for many of the leavers yet.

 

[edwin_m]

Never forget leavers favourite, the European Court for Human Rights, which is a separate entity to the EU. So all those terrorists the EU wouldn't let us send home because it will affect their human rights, yup, still stuck with them.

I don't think that particular bombshell has dropped for many of the leavers yet.

And if we end up outside the European Arrest Warrant system it's more difficult to arrest and return criminals wanted in another country, and for us to get back those who have escaped from the UK.

 

[najaB]

Never forget leavers favourite, the European Court for Human Rights, which is a separate entity to the EU. So all those terrorists the EU wouldn't let us send home because it will affect their human rights, yup, still stuck with them.

And if we end up outside the European Arrest Warrant system it's more difficult to arrest and return criminals wanted in another country, and for us to get back those who have escaped from the UK.

But hey. At least the passports will be blue.

 

[edwin_m]

But hey. At least the passports will be blue.

Or black, depending who you ask.

 

[Peter Kelford]

And if we end up outside the European Arrest Warrant system it's more difficult to arrest and return criminals wanted in another country, and for us to get back those who have escaped from the UK.

So we'd be stuck with Assange for longer as we couldn't deport him to Sweeden on fast-track and then let them deal with the US extradition.

 

[edwin_m]

So we'd be stuck with Assange for longer as we couldn't deport him to Sweeden on fast-track and then let them deal with the US extradition.

As far as I know the Swedes have dropped the charge he was originally arrested on so have no interest in having him back. He is currently being held on charges relating to evading justice in the UK and in relation to the US warrant.

 

[sprunt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51783580

Another total waste of money that’s comes from these brexit fools.

Leaving the EU aviation safety regulations.

We can set our own up for approx £36m per annum more which will result in firms that follow the standards having to certify under both standards.

I'm sure there are all sorts of these EU organisations whose functions will need to be replicated, and I've seen very little information about what's being done to ensure continuity. What, for example, is going to take over the functions of the European Medicines Agency? I know that a reduction in red tape and regulation was a driver for Brexit, but I can't help thinking that medicines are something that should be regulated.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I'm sure there are all sorts of these EU organisations whose functions will need to be replicated, and I've seen very little information about what's being done to ensure continuity. What, for example, is going to take over the functions of the European Medicines Agency? I know that a reduction in red tape and regulation was a driver for Brexit, but I can't help thinking that medicines are something that should be regulated.

MHRA.

 

[najaB]

MHRA.

I would be very surprised if the situation there isn't the same as with most similar agencies - while they have the competencies to perform the function, they won't have either the staff or the budget.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I would be very surprised if the situation there isn't the same as with most similar agencies - while they have the competencies to perform the function, they won't have either the staff or the budget.

Nor the skills any more. Just the legal competence (i.e. remit).

 

[SteveP29]

You obviously trust the EU to act more in your interests than you do an elected UK government

Yes, every single day of the week.
I wouldn't trust any UK Government to act more in my interests than their own.

 

[nlogax]

Crossing the threads here, but I see a glimmer of hope for an extension of the transition period. It seems the start of the UK-EU trade talks will be delayed. If the UK is about to head into recession due to the fall-out of Covid-19 I can't see anyone wanting to give those talks anything less then a full chance of a decent outcome for all concerned.

But maybe this is all meaningless for the UK government and they're just not bothered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crossing the threads here, but I see a glimmer of hope for an extension of the transition period. It seems the start of the UK-EU trade talks will be delayed. If the UK is about to head into recession due to the fall-out of Covid-19 I can't see anyone wanting to give those talks anything less then a full chance of a decent outcome for all concerned.

But maybe this is all meaningless for the UK government and they're just not bothered.

Or maybe they're just looking to hide it all behind the fallout from the virus.

 

[najaB]

Crossing the threads here, but I see a glimmer of hope for an extension of the transition period.

True. But the request has to be made by June and I'm doubtful that things will be 'bad enough' by then for Bo-Jo/Cummins to risk going back on their word.

 

[Grumpy Git]

OBR puts the cost of Brexit so far at around 2% of GDP - approx. £40bn a year, due to weaker business investment, (my business has received almost ZERO Capex work since January 2019):

https://twitter.com/BenChu_/status/1237754225452597249?s=20

In other words, approx. £800m/week, (i.e. > what we were giving the EU and then getting back before).

I wonder where BoJo's £350m/week for the NHS is coming from?

 

[najaB]

In other words, approx. £800m/week, (i.e. > what we were giving the EU and then getting back before).

Yes. But blue passports and sovereignty.

 

[JamesT]

So we'd be stuck with Assange for longer as we couldn't deport him to Sweeden on fast-track and then let them deal with the US extradition.

An extradition to Sweden would solely have been based on their charges. A further extradition to the US based on the espionage charges would still have required the permission of the UK courts (the Doctrine of Speciality).
The idea that the Swedish charges were merely a ruse to get him to the US were very much a smokescreen to cover his reluctance to face the music on the rape charges.

 

[najaB]

The idea that the Swedish charges were merely a ruse to get him to the US were very much a smokescreen to cover his reluctance to face the music on the rape charges.

I wouldn't go as far as it being a total smokescreen, but I agree that he was less than enthusiastic about mounting a defence against the sexual assault charges.

 

[AM9]

Will the end of the UK's EU transition period be put on hold whilst COVID19 shuts down any official interest in negotiating a trading agreement?

 

[edwin_m]

Will the end of the UK's EU transition period be put on hold whilst COVID19 shuts down any official interest in negotiating a trading agreement?

Boris suggests not. Which is a disgrace in my view.

 

[Chester1]

Will the end of the UK's EU transition period be put on hold whilst COVID19 shuts down any official interest in negotiating a trading agreement?

Boris suggests not. Which is a disgrace in my view.

I think the transition as defined by the withdrawal agreement won't be extended but that most elements of it will be. A temporary association agreement that keeps us in the single market and customs union but not other stuff would allow both sides to declare progress in agreeing the long term relationship. A Norway + customs union arrangement would keep most of the economically important stuff unchanged for another year or two. The EU budget process will get messy if the UK is not out of the Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy and ineligible for structural funding at the end of the transition. Such a deal could be sold as progress by our government. The EU moved on fishing when it published its draft treaty last week, which specified annual quota neogiations (their neogiating mandate demanded a long term deal). If the UK agrees to current quotas for the first year then a deal would be straightforward.