British Airways

[John R]

Could there come a time where Premium Economy catches up with business class in comfort etc?

I have never had the budget for anything other than Y for flying, short haul within Europe certainly not worth cash price.

My recent experience with BA down to South Africa was a pretty mediocre experience, both the hard and soft product (in contrast to a flight in Prem with Virgin in late 23).

So I can’t see it catching up with Business, but something akin to Business seats in the pre flatbed era could be a possibility if one airline wants to try something different.

 

[signed]

Qantas will have Economy Class on their A350-1000ULRs for Project Sunrise, they've advertised it on their website:

They've changed course since before Covid then. I remember seeing multiple reports of the order consisting of premium-only cabins

 

[YorkRailFan]

They've changed course since before Covid then. I remember seeing multiple reports of the order consisting of premium-only cabins

These were unveiled in 2023 though.

 

[Ted633]

They've changed course since before Covid then. I remember seeing multiple reports of the order consisting of premium-only cabins

Advertised as economy, however is better than your 'usual' economy. (3-3-3 instead of 3-4-3, fairly generous seat pitch)

 

[TravelDream]

Premium economy is actually an interesting one. It wasn't a thing a decade or two ago, and now all airlines seem to be clambering to install the product.


One big problem for me is that different airlines offer very different things. For some airlines, premium economy is economy with a bit more legroom. For other airlines, it's much more of a business light product. BA's product isn't the worst, but it is closer to economy plus than business light. Virgin Atlantic, on the other hand, is more like business light.

A lot of the growth for premium economy comes down to two things.
- Holiday makers who wouldn't consider business class, but can afford to 'treat themselves' to premium economy.
- Corporate policies which forbid business class travel, but allow economy and, by extension, premium economy. It sounds wild, but this is actually not too uncommon.

I've only personally flown it a few times. PE tends to be priced much closer to business than economy which makes it not worthwhile if I am going to pay myself. Less premium Asian airlines (Vietnam/ the mainland Chinese airlines etc.) tend to price their business cheaper than BA premium economy on routes I fly. Had several cracking deals on Aeroflot back in the 2010s where they were cheaper than BA economy. Aeroflot's premium economy was definitely more like business light as well.

Advertised as economy, however is better than your 'usual' economy. (3-3-3 instead of 3-4-3, fairly generous seat pitch)

10 abreast on the A350 would be unusual. When it was initially launched, it wasn't possible at all. Though it is now possible to put 17 inch seats in as Airbus slightly redesigned the internal fascia panels after entry into service to add 5 inches to the cabin width to allow said 17 inch seats.

17 inches on a 18 hours flight from Sydney to London would be pretty harsh. Especially as it would certainly be priced as a premium product.

Note planes do vary in width.
3-4-3 on a 747 is pretty comfortable as the plane is pretty wide.
3-4-3 is one of my bugbears for people who just love Emirates or Qatar. They were among the first to introduce it on the 777 and it certainly makes for a cramped cabin.
Similarly the 787 was originally though of as a 2-4-2 plane, but only launch operator ANA use 2-4-2. All other airlines installed 3-3-3 which is similar to 3-4-3 on the 777.

 

[Ted633]

10 abreast on the A350 would be unusual.

My apologies, I thought A350s were designed for 3-4-3 (XWB and all that)
However, just gone on board one of my companies ones (BA) and it is indeed 3-3-3!

 

[Cloud Strife]

They've changed course since before Covid then. I remember seeing multiple reports of the order consisting of premium-only cabins

I think they didn't really finalise their plans until it was sure that the A350-1000 could do it. The Qantas plans are actually quite interesting, as rather than provide a little bit more seat pitch, they've gone with having a dedicated "wellness" area where people can stand and stretch out without disturbing anyone.

 

[camflyer]

Was booked in WT on our flight last week, when got to lhr we printed put boarding passes which had printed on them "enjoy your free upgrade". So flew in WTP
When booking the flights back in april the cost for WTP was over double that for WT so couldn't justify the cost.

To be honest, WTP (Premium Economy) on BA isn't particularly good compared to other airlines. The on board service isn't much better than Economy and the latest seat is annoying.

Perhaps the best reason to book WTP if you have Gold or Silver status is that the chances of getting a free upgrade to Business class is pretty good.

 

[telstarbox]

Will airlines generally try to fill every seat in their Business / First cabins (by upgrading pax if necessary) because a) they already have the staff and catering loaded, and b) it might convert people to book those cabins in the future?

 

[Bald Rick]

Will airlines generally try to fill every seat in their Business / First cabins (by upgrading pax if necessary) because a) they already have the staff and catering loaded, and b) it might convert people to book those cabins in the future?

No.

 

[jfollows]

Will airlines generally try to fill every seat in their Business / First cabins (by upgrading pax if necessary) because a) they already have the staff and catering loaded, and b) it might convert people to book those cabins in the future?

I had two upgrades (both ways on the same trip) to Business on the Manchester-New York 767 which hasn’t run for many years, it didn’t get enough fare-paying Business class passengers to be profitable and I was upgraded because then I was a BA Blue frequent flyer.
I’ve since turned any remaining points into bottles of wine, BA killed the service and re-used its US landing slot for a Gatwick-New York service, which didn’t last long anyway.
But I got the impression I was upgraded for the reasons you stated. I never paid for Business class on the route but BA killed it before I could anyway. There was no First class.
EDIT The last time BA operated the service was Saturday 25 October 2008 (https://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7689015.stm). Irrelevant but when I used it I recall that I was destined for Pittsburgh, which involved two more flights, changing at Cleveland, then I hired a car and drove to Poughkeepsie for a few days before then driving to New York JFK for the return flight home. Was when I worked for IBM, from which I resigned on 5 April 2008. I had pleasure in meeting my colleague at Pittsburgh the following day, who had flown from Heathrow via Miami, and who complained that the flight was full and noisy.

 

[camflyer]

Will airlines generally try to fill every seat in their Business / First cabins (by upgrading pax if necessary) because a) they already have the staff and catering loaded, and b) it might convert people to book those cabins in the future?

No. Not unless there is an operational reason to do so. Economy seats are often overbooked so to make room for everyone they may need to push a few people forward and this is usually done by status but last minute upgrades can happen for any reason.

One tip is never to book a special meal as they cannot upgrade the food.

 

[TravelDream]

Will airlines generally try to fill every seat in their Business / First cabins (by upgrading pax if necessary) because a) they already have the staff and catering loaded, and b) it might convert people to book those cabins in the future?

Definitely not.

Economy might be packed and business empty, and it will remain empty.

The exception is when economy is overbooked and people need to be upgraded. Basically all airlines (except Ryanair as one example) overbook as they know a certain percentage of passengers won't turn up. I've never missed a booked flight, but it's pretty routine for 5% or so of passengers not to turn up - and it can be 10-15% on routes like London to Dublin. Sometimes the airlines get it wrong and people will be bumped up. It can also happen that people need to be bumped down if business is overbooked. I've had both happen, but think I was pretty lucky/ unlucky in each case.

Another exception is in the US where upgrades based on frequent flyer seniority are normal. Though airlines have been moving away hard from that in the last few years trying to sell first seats at a discount rather than upgrading economy passengers for free. This is because airlines are now becoming more revenue focused than ever.

 

[Tetchytyke]

British Airways have just announced some pretty major changes to the Executive Club, which is to be renamed The Club.

https://www.britishairways.com/content/executive-club/faqs/introducing-the-british-airways-club

The new Tier Point collection year begins 1 April 2025, which will also mark the launch of The British Airways Club.

From this date, Members will have new ways to earn their Tier Status. You’ll collect 1 Tier Point for every £1 of eligible spend* with British Airways. Plus, you’ll earn Tier Points for more than just your flights – if you book a British Airways Holidays package, add an extra bag or pay to choose a seat, you’ll earn Tier Points then too.

As we change the way you earn Tier Points, our Tier thresholds will be updated too:

Tier Tier Point threshold
Blue None
Bronze 3,500
Silver 7,500
Gold 20,000

I can't say I'm surprised, I'd say moving to a spend-based system has been on the cards for a good while now.

I'm probably just about a winner in this change. I use BA Holidays but usually book economy seats and nice hotels, rather than Club seats and rubbish hotels. Under the current scheme I'm a long way from bronze and under the new scheme I'd be almost there. But it does take Silver ever further from view.

 

[camflyer]

Hmmm.... Disappointing but not overly surprised.

Will need to look at the details but suspect that will be the end of my Silver status. The irony is that by dropping the Executive name they have made the Club more exclusive for business travellers.

 

[eoff]

I don't see who it is for anymore, the only people with higher tier status in the future would be getting that from companies who choose BA for them.

What really annoys me though is how this was presented....

"Based on our Members’ feedback"

Which ones? Did they say BA was too generous?

"While we have announced a number of positive changes today"

Some small positive tinkering around what is an unmitigated disaster for people hoping BA would reward them with status for their loyalty in booking leisure travel with BA.

I have a year to decide which airlines to move to for the expensive trips I do.

 

[Watershed]

That's the end of status with BA for me, then. I have another 2⅓ years at the top, based on trips I've already booked, but they have made it about 8-10× more expensive to requalify going forwards.

The Lifetime TPs that I've earned so far (42% of the way to Lifetime Gold) may as well be meaningless as it would now take me another £230k in spending to get the rest of the way! It was nice whilst it lasted, I suppose.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Some small positive tinkering around what is an unmitigated disaster for people hoping BA would reward them with status for their loyalty in booking leisure travel with BA.

One change that is positive for leisure travellers is that you will now earn TPs based on your overall spend on BA Holidays, rather than just the airfare component.

I think the £20,000 for gold is insane and gold will go back to being the preserve of people travelling on the company credit card. But normal leisure passengers should get up to bronze just on BAH spend and premium leisure passengers should get close to silver, especially if they are eligible for the Amex.

 

[TravelDream]

As these spend based programmes become more common, it seems the day of the mileage run is fast going.

I think the £20,000 for gold is insane and gold will go back to being the preserve of people travelling on the company credit card. But normal leisure passengers should get up to bronze just on BAH spend and premium leisure passengers should get close to silver, especially if they are eligible for the Amex.

Agreed.
Bronze should be pretty doable for anyone taking holidays with BA holidays
Gold will be rather difficult for anyone who travels economy unless they do so very frequently. It seems designed for those who fairly frequently fly long haul in ClubWorld.
But from BA's perspective, I can see why they've done it. There are a lot of Gold members who BA doesn't actually earn that much from.

 

[Mojo]

Makes you wonder who will be in the First lounges at T3, T5 and Gatwick going forward. In many regards the T5 lounge is already quite crowded and I have long thought it is almost “too easy” to get status (at least to Silver level) with BA, but these changes seem to take things too far the other way.

Whilst the Gold benefits are nice, I’m not sure it’s worth it unless you’re a regular traveller through T5 in Business or lower.

 

[camflyer]

Makes you wonder who will be in the First lounges at T3, T5 and Gatwick going forward. In many regards the T5 lounge is already quite crowded and I have long thought it is almost “too easy” to get status (at least to Silver level) with BA, but these changes seem to take things too far the other way.

Whilst the Gold benefits are nice, I’m not sure it’s worth it unless you’re a regular traveller through T5 in Business or lower.

Over the last few years I have found it quite easy - maybe too easy - to maintain Silver purely from leisure flights especially with the ongoing BA holiday offfer. Under the new scheme there is no way that I would spend £7500 per year (not including taxes) on BA flights and holidays and the benefits of Bronze status are hardly worth having.

I have Silver status until April 25 but once that expires it looks like I will be buying a Priority Pass.

 

[Mojo]

I have Silver status until April 25 but once that expires it looks like I will be buying a Priority Pass.

I’m of the belief that these are practically worthless on departing UK airports as in my experience lounges typically seem to only be accepting pre-booked passengers and not walk ups with Priority Pass, DragonPass, et al.

 

[Failed Unit]

As someone that used to get a significant part of the haul to Silver on company business - 2 return long haul flights in club world with a few top up leisure flights to top up into Silver.

Looking at this I don’t think this is possible, so BA may be losing the club world business from me to say Virgin. (Which I struggled to get higher status because of their limited network). The short hauls I did sometime pay a premium to maintain silver over their competition (I don’t regard BA any better then Ryanair on short haul)

So this will backfire on my spend profile.

Other people I know used to get silver by a lot of short hauls. Edinburgh - London weekly commute was enough, I did joke everyone was silver on the morning Flights.

Will see what happens but I am sure the objective is to have less people with the useful status. So they will have more losers then winners.

 

[TravelDream]

Logically, BA would only have two goals.
- Reduce cost.
- Increase revenue.

These changes will be based on one or both of those.

I don’t regard BA any better then Ryanair on short haul

Nor should anyone. Flying short-haul, there's literally no difference between easyjet, Ryanair, BA and others. Long gone are the days of free booze and hot meals in Euroflyer.

 

[camflyer]

I’m of the belief that these are practically worthless on departing UK airports as in my experience lounges typically seem to only be accepting pre-booked passengers and not walk ups with Priority Pass, DragonPass, et al.

In the UK my experience of 3rd party lounges is pretty grim so I'd rather spend the money in a Wetherspoons but PP can be worthwhile elsewhere.

 

[TravelDream]

In the UK my experience of 3rd party lounges is pretty grim so I'd rather spend the money in a Wetherspoons but PP can be worthwhile elsewhere.

True sadly.

I often find a budget 'lounge' is better than most lounges.

Take Stansted. The best lounge at the airport is upstairs in the Wetherspoons.

 

[nlogax]

Looks like Silver at best once Gold expires for me in March 26, which presumably will still be the step-down point anyway. Twenty grand p/a of BA spend feels wholly unrealistic even during a heavy travel year.

Time to explore alternative options from the central belt. I've got my eye on Skyteam for now.

 

[alholmes]

I’m BA silver, built up entirely through leisure flights albeit often in Club Europe. Under the new structure I’d be lucky to achieve bronze, and there aren’t really many benefits from being bronze. So whilst I’ll still fly BA (my local airport is London City), it’s less likely to be in Club Europe so less revenue to BA. And I’ll be looking more at the other airlines as well from LCY Such as KLM for some of my flights.

 

[sk688]

I have Silver status until April 25 but once that expires it looks like I will be buying a Priority Pass.

Lloyds World Mastercard for £15 a month is a way to get Priority Pass unlimited for far better than actually paying for Priority Pass itself

 

[sh24]

I have Gold for Life so not directly impacted (for now, at least), but I am mystified by the changes. Status becomes insanely hard to reach in most cases.