British heritage lines which are returning to normal, post Covid-19 restrictions.

[paul1609]

A DMU gala is very much aimed at the enthusiast rather than the general tourist market so perhaps they felt a normal service rather than a pre-booked, fixed itinerary one was appropriate. I have no idea how well they did, not how well they do on other days.


Cranks price the majority of passengers off, have the railway run the way they like and see their fares soar to meet the costs or the railway go bust and disappear.

The sad thing from my point of view is how these people do not realise that probably a majority of our heritage railways really are operating on the edge and post pandemic really clinging on. It appears that the miraculous escape of the Llangollen, with more to follow is totally lost on them.

 

[John Luxton]

The sad thing from my point of view is how these people do not realise that probably a majority of our heritage railways really are operating on the edge and post pandemic really clinging on. It appears that the miraculous escape of the Llangollen, with more to follow is totally lost on them.

it is easy to call people names - and refer to those of us who want to see services on heritage railways return to normal as cranks - but are we really?

It is very important that heritage railways survive and yet the financial knife edge is realised. However, we do not realise that the "experience" model is the way to go and will actually be detrimental to the survival of some railways.

Ask yourself this, why if the experience model is so successful, have some lines switched back to normality?

As many have pointed out the prebook experience model is not only off putting to many would be enthusiasts but also the casual run of the mill day tripper who may on the spare of the moment decide they want a ride.

Experiences can have their uses.

The logical solution is a basic public service model on operating days with the first and last train running an all stations as normal - turn up and go service with "Experiences" in between.

There needs to be a compromise.

Ha ha, freedom lovers reporting people to the HMRC. You couldn't make it up.

What are you talking about?

HMRC are there to uphold the rules.

 

[david1212]

I agree entirely - the atmosphere is completely different when everyone is on a fixed itinerary. When the pandemic (and consequent lockdown) was at its worst, there was probably no other way to run a heritage line, and I respected the lines that at least did what they could rather than throw the towel in, like so many did. But now, I don't think that is a good model to make permanent.

Further, if I were working for HMRC, I'd be looking at VAT being payable on 'experience' fares - it cannot be argued that these are providing public transport.

Perhaps HMRC have not really become aware of the experiences?

One wonders if enough people who object to 'experiences' wrote to the HMRC to complain that some lines are not charging VAT on an offering that requires VAT that HMRC would act?

Those lines concerned might then have to either increase fares by 20% (which will put punters off) or go back to operating a real service which is not subject to VAT.

Perhaps the taxman could ride to our rescue with a little encouragement?

Very debatable if some Heritage Railways are providing public transport given only one station of any significance.

Most though are registered as a charity hence get tax / VAT relief on all income ?

 

[John Luxton]

Very debatable if some Heritage Railways are providing public transport given only one station of any significance.

Most though are registered as a charity hence get tax / VAT relief on all income ?

I am thinking of some which have at least one Network Rail connected station - and not everyone wants to visit by car.
I noted the other day Bodmin and Wenford are still basically offering experiences from Bodmin General.

If one looks a the web site there appears to be some concession for those arriving by mainline to Bodmin Road that they MAY be able to obtain tickets from the Bodmin Road signal box cafe.

If I recall B&W used to offer through tickets at least for day trips from GWR - I am sure I have seen this facility advertised in the past.

That is one line that really could be useful to both travellers and trippers - has a regular connecting shuttle not been suggested at times?

Are not some lines dual status.

Supporting society is the charity operating company commercial? Quite a few had this dual status. Llangollen appeared to do so before the commercial company went into administration.

 

[RT4038]

I agree entirely - the atmosphere is completely different when everyone is on a fixed itinerary. When the pandemic (and consequent lockdown) was at its worst, there was probably no other way to run a heritage line, and I respected the lines that at least did what they could rather than throw the towel in, like so many did. But now, I don't think that is a good model to make permanent.

Further, if I were working for HMRC, I'd be looking at VAT being payable on 'experience' fares - it cannot be argued that these are providing public transport.

Before you get egg on your face, I suggest you read this link https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-vat...vat-treatment-of-passenger-transport-services . The rules now are not quite what they may have been in the past.

 

[John Luxton]

Before you get egg on your face, I suggest you read this link https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-vat...vat-treatment-of-passenger-transport-services . The rules now are not quite what they may have been in the past.

Thanks for that.

Now I see that

• excursions by coach or train (including steam railways) are zero rated

However

• novelty rides on miniature and model railways, ghost trains, roundabouts, dippers and other fairground equipment and similar attractions are subject to VAT.

From my understanding zero rating of VAT does not mean they are not exactly VAT free and the government at any time could cease the zero rating.

Zero rating is something also applied to printed material and I seem to recall at sometime in the last 20 odd years of a suggestion that there might be a ceasing zero rating on printed materials including books.

Apparently not all countries zero rate printed materials.

If this zero rating concession applies at the moment to excursions it could be withdrawn at any time presumably?

Whilst I can see excursions such as railtours are currently exempt might not at some stage consider steam railways not operating an A to B service have become a novelty ride.

Personally I think many would consider from and back to one location being a novelty ride.

Though I accept at present steam railways are not defined as a novelty ride - however - I in the true sense of the word they are if they just offer an out and back experience as they do little more than a fairground ride.

 

[RT4038]

Thanks for that.

Now I see that

• excursions by coach or train (including steam railways) are zero rated

However

• novelty rides on miniature and model railways, ghost trains, roundabouts, dippers and other fairground equipment and similar attractions are subject to VAT.

From my understanding zero rating of VAT does not mean they are not exactly VAT free and the government at any time could cease the zero rating.

Zero rating is something also applied to printed material and I seem to recall at sometime in the last 20 odd years of a suggestion that there might be a ceasing zero rating on printed materials including books.

Apparently not all countries zero rate printed materials.

If this zero rating concession applies at the moment to excursions it could be withdrawn at any time presumably?

Whilst I can see excursions such as railtours are currently exempt might not at some stage consider steam railways not operating an A to B service have become a novelty ride.

Personally I think many would consider from and back to one location being a novelty ride.

Though I accept at present steam railways are not defined as a novelty ride - however - I in the true sense of the word they are if they just offer an out and back experience as they do little more than a fairground ride.

But they could offer A to B pre booked only singles at £100 each (or even at the round trip price) and still be within your definition of providing public transport (i.e. not a novelty ride), and still not be anything like what you want.

I suggest this whole VAT thing is a red herring.

 

[paul1609]

I am thinking of some which have at least one Network Rail connected station - and not everyone wants to visit by car.
I noted the other day Bodmin and Wenford are still basically offering experiences from Bodmin General.

If one looks a the web site there appears to be some concession for those arriving by mainline to Bodmin Road that they MAY be able to obtain tickets from the Bodmin Road signal box cafe.

If I recall B&W used to offer through tickets at least for day trips from GWR - I am sure I have seen this facility advertised in the past.

That is one line that really could be useful to both travellers and trippers - has a regular connecting shuttle not been suggested at times?

Are not some lines dual status.

Supporting society is the charity operating company commercial? Quite a few had this dual status. Llangollen appeared to do so before the commercial company went into administration.

A lot of the railways are charities with wholly owned subsidiaries carrying out the commercial activities. This is generally on the advice of the charity commissioners (or in accordance with their best practice guidance).
I don't have any details of the B&W but most heritage railways that have through ticketing arrangements have to pay the sponsoring TOC an administration fee per ticket. The arrangements predate the heritage railways own online booking systems. There is more money in it if the heritage railway sells their own tickets. Fortunately the through tickets sales are pretty much non existent. I think the biggest one from memory is the Ravenglass.

 

[John Luxton]

I suggest this whole VAT thing is a red herring.

It could well be - however it appears to have been doing the rounds ever since the "Experiences" appeared.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could well be - however it appears to have been doing the rounds ever since the "Experiences" appeared.

The experiences are railtours. Who owns the track they run on is irrelevant. The VAT situation is the same.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I had a day out on the Dean Forest yesterday, and very good it was, too.

I bought a Rover ticket, and joined the train at Lydney Junction, as I travelled on the main line from Newport to Lydney. The web site still asks people to join the trains at Norchard, but I'd previously checked with a friend who works on the line whether joining at Lydney Junction was okay; having been told "yes" that was what I did. It seemed to me that the timetable that they were operating was slightly different to that on the web site, but that wasn't a problem. The train arrived, and I saw the guard and told him that I had a ticket for him to see, and he replied that he's come and find me - which he did, and was very pleasant about it.

I travelled up to Parkend, and then back to Norchard to see the various attractions there. As the next train was to Norchard (there was only one train operating), I went back to Parkend and then took the full journey back to Lydney Junction. Having seen the train leave, I then went back to Lydney station and thence to Newport.

As I said, it was very enjoyable. It's quite a while since I went to the DFR, and I'm pleased that I did so yesterday. The staff were all very pleasant and helpful and, all in all, it was a very good day.

 

[nanstallon]

I wouldn't want to see any heritage railway become subject to VAT being chargeable, but to go from zero rate to full 20% (or somewhere in the middle) would only take a footnote in a Chancellor's budget.

Bodmin & Wenford - I went there with a friend, who had come from Plymouth by train. He had bought a through ticket at a very advantageous rate. So this arrangement still exists.

There were no problems about which train we went on. We joined at Bodmin Parkway, and were not coralled into any set itinerary.

 

[John Luxton]

I wouldn't want to see any heritage railway become subject to VAT being chargeable, but to go from zero rate to full 20% (or somewhere in the middle) would only take a footnote in a Chancellor's budget.

Bodmin & Wenford - I went there with a friend, who had come from Plymouth by train. He had bought a through ticket at a very advantageous rate. So this arrangement still exists.

There were no problems about which train we went on. We joined at Bodmin Parkway, and were not coralled into any set itinerary.

Thanks for the update - but they need to remove this from their web site:

"For 2022 we are going to continue with allocated seating. We cannot guarantee that if you turn up on the day without a booking that we will be able to accommodate you."

That is what I saw and led me to jump to conclusions - thus when I was in the area last week I didn't visit.

 

[nanstallon]

Thanks for the update - but they need to remove this from their web site:

"For 2022 we are going to continue with allocated seating. We cannot guarantee that if you turn up on the day without a booking that we will be able to accommodate you."

That is what I saw and led me to jump to conclusions - thus when I was in the area last week I didn't visit.

They did tell us where to sit, but as the trains were nothing like full there was plenty of space. I'm not surprised that heritage railways (for economic reasons) like people to book (and pay) in advance, and in high season that would be sensible to do for one's own sake. My point was that that we were not turned away for the lack of an advance booking.

 

[RPI]

I visited the North Norfolk over Easter, turned up on the day, easily bought Priv rate day rovers from the booking office and could sit where we wanted, catch whatever train we wanted and hardly saw a mask the whole day. Was a very enjoyable day out.

 

[geoffk]

Some heritage railways, I've no idea how many, offer discounted fares to local residents (i.e. anyone living in XX1 to 4 postcode areas) so are not just catering for the tourist market. The Worth Valley and East Lancs are two which do this, or did pre-Covid and I no longer live in the area. On occasions they provide public transport, e.g. on Boxing Day and New Year's Day when buses don't operate. I believe there are no buses passing Penrhyn (Ffestiniog Railway) station and they only serve the main part of the village at the bottom of the hill. Someone local may be able to confirm this. The train therefore offers the only transport into Porthmadog, although with a limited timetable. The "pre-booked fixed journey" approach would not cater for these trips but I guess they are few in number and the railways still operating like this are happy to do without this revenue.

 

[Phil56]

I wouldn't want to see any heritage railway become subject to VAT being chargeable, but to go from zero rate to full 20% (or somewhere in the middle) would only take a footnote in a Chancellor's budget.

Indeed it could, but highly unlikely that any Chancellor would target a pretty small amount of tax revenue in that way. They're usually looking for big money, certainly big enough to justify the adverse publicity and potential damage to the tourist/hospitality economies relying in part on visitors to heritage lines.

 

[The_Van]

Imagine travelling to Bodmin Parkway by rail and being turned away from the B&W. Not everyone can or does check the website

 

[Bletchleyite]

Imagine travelling to Bodmin Parkway by rail and being turned away from the B&W. Not everyone can or does check the website

Imagine turning up and it just being shut.

The number of people who can afford to make a long rail journey to Cornwall to ride a heritage line but have neither Internet access nor a telephone/textphone is basically zero. It is necessary to check in advance when planning to use a preserved line anyway, simply to find out if they are running that day or not, as none of them run every single day of the year.

 

[xotGD]

Some heritage railways, I've no idea how many, offer discounted fares to local residents (i.e. anyone living in XX1 to 4 postcode areas) so are not just catering for the tourist market. The Worth Valley and East Lancs are two which do this, or did pre-Covid and I no longer live in the area. On occasions they provide public transport, e.g. on Boxing Day and New Year's Day when buses don't operate. I believe there are no buses passing Penrhyn (Ffestiniog Railway) station and they only serve the main part of the village at the bottom of the hill. Someone local may be able to confirm this. The train therefore offers the only transport into Porthmadog, although with a limited timetable. The "pre-booked fixed journey" approach would not cater for these trips but I guess they are few in number and the railways still operating like this are happy to do without this revenue.

The local residents discount scheme is in operation at the KWVR. But does not apply to my postcode area - not local enough!

 

[John Luxton]

They did tell us where to sit, but as the trains were nothing like full there was plenty of space. I'm not surprised that heritage railways (for economic reasons) like people to book (and pay) in advance, and in high season that would be sensible to do for one's own sake. My point was that that we were not turned away for the lack of an advance booking.

Telling people where to sit is not acceptable. They are clearly NOT over Covid yet. I can't see anything wrong with advanced booking - but it should not be at the expense of those who want to turn up and go. Had two trips on the lovely Looe Branch last week and could site where I wanted!

Imagine travelling to Bodmin Parkway by rail and being turned away from the B&W. Not everyone can or does check the website

The fact is provides connections with a mainline service means they should not be carrying on with this Covid nonsense.

 

[headshot119]

The sad thing from my point of view is how these people do not realise that probably a majority of our heritage railways really are operating on the edge and post pandemic really clinging on. It appears that the miraculous escape of the Llangollen, with more to follow is totally lost on them.

Llangollen going belly up wasn't related to Covid though, the place had been mismanaged long before we'd ever heard about Covid-19.

 

[John Luxton]

Llangollen going belly up wasn't related to Covid though, the place had been mismanaged long before we'd ever heard about Covid-19.

Yes I used to be a share holder of Llangollen Railway in February 2020 they actually sent begging letters to shareholders asking for donations to keep afloat.

Misguidedly I obliged and sent a three figure sum.

Looking back at how things worked out post the auction I do wonder if the company had organised the auction themselves and sold off the stock which did fetch more than was expected adminstration could have been avoided?

The only winners in this were the administrators - their final report is on line. I think it can be accessed via Companies House.

Llangollen managed to get themselves into a right old pickle and I doubt anyone will be held accountable nor the full story be made clear.

 

[WAB]

Llangollen going belly up wasn't related to Covid though, the place had been mismanaged long before we'd ever heard about Covid-19.

Covid-19 was the final straw. The problems with rising costs on the Ffestiniog were causing concern in 2019 and no doubt the pandemic is worsening similar flaws on other railways. I would not be surprised if a few more join the Llangollen in due course. Will donations and help saving the railways be so forthcoming as on the Llangollen, or did they benefit from being the first?

 

[trebor79]

Saw something in the local press that the Mid Norfolk Railway is only operating part of the line this year. They were citing coal and diesel costs, and some repairs required to the track towards Wymondham.
I suspect it's the latter that's the real reaskn, but still disappointed. Despite living nearby I've never ridden the line and intended to do so this year.

 

[The North Briton]

I found it very interesting to compare the websites of the Kirklees Light Railway (or 'Whistlestop Valley' as they appear to market themselves) and the Middleton Railway.
I have visited neither, so I can't say whether the websites are an accurate reflection of what is currently happening in practice, but the MR seems so much more welcoming and helpful, regardless of whether you are an enthusiast, tourist or parent looking to entertain the children.

 

[WessexRails]

Excellent diesel gala down at the Swanage Railway yesterday

 

[The_Van]

Saw something in the local press that the Mid Norfolk Railway is only operating part of the line this year. They were citing coal and diesel costs, and some repairs required to the track towards Wymondham.
I suspect it's the latter that's the real reaskn, but still disappointed. Despite living nearby I've never ridden the line and intended to do so this year.

I was intending to visit.

Is that section likely to be closed for the whole season?

 

[trebor79]

I was intending to visit.

Is that section likely to be closed for the whole season?

Unclear from the article. It gave me the impression that there was a bit of trouble at t' mill between volunteers and the operating co. Their website just says not serving Kimberley Park and Wymondham "until further notice" due to essential maintenance.

 

[gc4946]

I found it very interesting to compare the websites of the Kirklees Light Railway (or 'Whistlestop Valley' as they appear to market themselves) and the Middleton Railway.
I have visited neither, so I can't say whether the websites are an accurate reflection of what is currently happening in practice, but the MR seems so much more welcoming and helpful, regardless of whether you are an enthusiast, tourist or parent looking to entertain the children.

The Middleton is much better from my perspective as a visitor, it's only a short round trip about a mile in all, but it's my nearest heritage railway, so I try and visit it several times per year, especially when special events take place.
You just turn up and pay on the day, no hassle involved with pre-booking.
I've only once been on the Kirklees Light Railway, it was a few years ago when there were Covid restrictions and pre-booking was mandatory. A round trip of about six miles on narrow gauge with views of Emley Moor, the TV transmitter station and the Pennine scenery.