Buffets

[Joseph_Locke]

If in doubt, ask this forum. Any chance of a concise description of, and the differences between:

• Micro Buffets
• Miniature Buffets
• Modular Buffets

Please?

EDIT - and Modular Coaches, come to that?

 

[Ken H]

If in doubt, ask this forum. Any chance of a concise description of, and the differences between:

• Micro Buffets
• Miniature Buffets
• Modular Buffets

Please?

well modular were for modular catering. This was the idea that you put the stuff into catering cars in wheeled containers. Do your trips catering, then at the end all the rubbish, dirty tablecloths and dirty pots come off so on-train staff do the minimum of food prep etc, and no washing up etc. just chuck it in the container for someone else.
They even put half cooked roast joints in the containers for a quick brown off in the kitchen car.
sort of a development of airline catering.
was supposed to improve stock control too.

no the best idea. people thought the coach type should be BUM - Buffet, unclassified, modular.

 

[30907]

Miniature Buffet - the Mk 1 RMB, basically a TSO (open second) with two bays (right across) replaced by a buffet counter. They were purpose built from c.1960. IIRC the remaining 48 seats were NOT designated as buffet seating, but all, of course, had tables.

Micro Buffet - various conversions of existing stock in the 70s/80s, with one bay taken out. (T) was added to the designation, and there were Mk 1 and Mk 2 BSO, Mk 2 (abc) TSO and I think Mk2d as well.

Links re BSOs and TSOs:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_Standard_Open_(Micro-Buffet)
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/9279-information-on-mk2-micro-buffets/

Modular buffets and coaches - I can only think of the Mk 3 RFM which was a West Coast Restaurant car design, not a buffet.

 

[43096]

Modular buffets and coaches - I can only think of the Mk 3 RFM which was a West Coast Restaurant car design, not a buffet.

RFMs have a buffet counter as well.

Weren't the East Coast Mark 4 buffets (or "Service Vehicles") also modular catering when new?

 

[randyrippley]

the class 119 & 120 WR Cross Country DMU's had a miniature buffet in the central trailer: a couple of rows of seats at one end replaced with a counter. Only seem to have been used until the mid-60's then disused. I've got memories of seeing them in use on the Weymouth line early sixties, and I think the stores were housed in wheel-on aluminium modules. No hot food - it was all coffee/tea and cakes with the then ubiquitous Robinsons fruit pies.
Later the buffet area became an ad-hoc luggage dumping ground.

Theres a photo and description of the 120 buffet bar at
https://railcar.co.uk/type/class-120/description

 

[dubscottie]

A micro buffet was basically a counter behind which a catering trolley would sit. Cold snacks and hot drinks only. Few had facilities to even heat water.

A miniature buffet was similar but had more space for display products (fridge) and may also have had fixed equipment for serving hot drinks (Stills boiler) and a microwave to heat pre-prepared snacks.

Modular buffets were larger, had fridges, facilities for reheated meals (like airline food, Cuisine 2000, not a success!), A kitchen area to cook food from scratch if required (Yorkshire Pullman, Manchester Pullman etc). Food served in/on china cups & plates in first-class.

This is just a basic summary. What each coach did varied between IC, NSE, Provincial and the post 1994 operators.

The main reason for making things modular was to cut down on costs and fraud.

I remember staff having to account for every plastic cup. Staff would buy their own bread and fillings for less than a £, would make sandwiches on the train and sell them at BR prices and pocket the vast profits.

Thats why everything became pre-packed. Even tea & coffee came in foil sealed plastic cups on IC.

 

[dubscottie]

RFMs have a buffet counter as well.

Weren't the East Coast Mark 4 buffets (or "Service Vehicles") also modular catering when new?

They were but IC changed how it did catering about the same time. Stuff started to get cooked from scratch (for first class passengers on certain trains) and things like a bacon roll or toastie (still pre-packaged) for a standard class passenger were done under the grill not nuked in a microwave!

 

[hexagon789]

Weren't the East Coast Mark 4 buffets (or "Service Vehicles") also modular catering when new?

Indeed, and three '225' sets had two SVs in the formation in BR days; a practice carried over from the two HST "Pullman" sets which had the usual TRFB and additionally a TRFK in the formation.

 

[GusB]

Memories are a bit hazy, but childhood journeys usually involved two different types of buffet car - there was the RMB(?) for one leg of the journey. I recall it had "normal" seats, as @30907 describes above, and then for the second leg (Clansman from Inverness) it was an RB, or possibly an RBR. These had solid, plasticky seats, and there was a buffet counter and what looked like a small galley area. Would I be correct in remembering a white/orange colour scheme for these?

 

[hexagon789]

Memories are a bit hazy, but childhood journeys usually involved two different types of buffet car - there was the RMB(?) for one leg of the journey. I recall it had "normal" seats, as @30907 describes above, and then for the second leg (Clansman from Inverness) it was an RB, or possibly an RBR. These had solid, plasticky seats, and there was a buffet counter and what looked like a small galley area. Would I be correct in remembering a white/orange colour scheme for these?

RBR (Restaurant Buffet Refurbished) were converted from IIRC a mix of RB (Restaurant Buffet) and RU (Restaurant Unclassified). RB seated I think 23, had a kitchen a buffet counter, while RU seated 33 and had a kitchen but no buffet. The RBR gained as you say, I think it was orange plastic seats and I believe fluorescent lighting in place of the original Tungsten. The RBR seated 23 and had a kitchen and buffet. In these vehicles seating was officially 'unclassed'

RMB (Restaurant Miniature Buffet), seated 44 or 48 Second Class passengers (depending on batch) and had a buffet counter taking up two bays as described above; essentially a TSO with seats removed for the buffet effectively.

Depends what year you travelled on the Clansman, but certainly in the '80s, it seemed to be a Mk1 RBR for catering, certainly over the Stirling-Inverness part of the route.

 

[dubscottie]

As stated above the Clansman catering varied over the years. In the 80s a RMB would be added at Perth heading north and detached there going south. The train joined up with a portion from Ayr at Mossend which had Mk3 buffet.

Once the Ayr portion was stopped, the two Clansman sets used a RBR when it still ran via Mossend. When it was diverted via Edinburgh, it went to a Mk3 and then back to a Mk1 RMB when it ran from Inverness to Edinburgh only (using IC stock) before the service was stopped altogether!

 

[Warwick]

The thing is ...when did the Buffet Car Attendant become, "your Customer Host"?

 

[BanburyBlue]

the class 119 & 120 WR Cross Country DMU's had a miniature buffet in the central trailer: a couple of rows of seats at one end replaced with a counter. Only seem to have been used until the mid-60's then disused. I've got memories of seeing them in use on the Weymouth line early sixties, and I think the stores were housed in wheel-on aluminium modules. No hot food - it was all coffee/tea and cakes with the then ubiquitous Robinsons fruit pies.
Later the buffet area became an ad-hoc luggage dumping ground.

Theres a photo and description of the 120 buffet bar at
https://railcar.co.uk/type/class-120/description

And the slices of Genoa Fruit cake

 

[AndyW33]

As built the Miniature Buffets in Mk1 RMBs and in various DMUs (not just the 119 and 120 units, but also some Metro Cammell cars, and various Swindon-built InterCity units) were not trolley-based at all. A boiler for water for tea and coffee (and according to the specification) an egg boiler for making boiled eggs for sandwiches, proper cups and saucers (with a sink for washing them up after use), limited food prep on board, not just those egg sandwiches but cheese, ham etc with and without tomato, all featured. The inevitable wrapped pork pies and individual fruit pies weren't always the same brand, there were different supply contracts for different depots to ensure freshness. I can certainly remember seeing the attendant/steward actually replenishing the sandwich stock from scratch, regular travellers knew the parts of the journey this was likely to happen on and timed their purchases for just after fresh ones had been made.
Of course later on the sandwiches were loaded ready-made and on a long run the dreaded curly sandwich appeared since there was no refrigerated storage for them.

 

[Helvellyn]

Mark 2F buffet conversions from FOs also used the modular concept:

• 12xx - RFB seating 26 with original IC70 seats, telephone booth and a small buffet counter, microwave and storage area.
• 67xx - RLO seating 26 with loose lounge seats, telephone booth in place of the luggage rack and a pantry with microwave and storage area. Some had a small bar counter like the 12xx vehicles.

On the West Coast 12 former Mark 3 HST kitchen cars (405xx series), 18 surplus Mark 3A FOs and the original 28 Mark 3A Restaurant Buffet Firsts (RFBs) were all rebuilt as Restaurant Buffet Firsts (Modular) or RFMs. This was to standardise the West a Coast catering fleet dye to the mixed Mark 2/3 fleet that operated with the RFBs, Mark 1 RBRs and Mark 1 Kitchen Buffets (the latter in the Manchester Pullman 3B sets).

The Mark 3A RFBs were essentially the same as the HST TRUBs (403xx)/TRFBs (407xx). One (40719) was rebuilt to trial the Modular catering concept as a TRFM and renumbered 40619. For a number of year some it was used in the Master Cutler set and then shortly before privatisation it became a spare vehicle with CrossCountry due to being non-standard (it was excluded from the kitchen/Buffet rebuild InterCity did on the HST catering vehicles in the early 1990s).

 

[43096]

Mark 2F buffet conversions from FOs also used the modular concept:

• 12xx - RFB seating 26 with original IC70 seats, telephone booth and a small buffet counter, microwave and storage area.
• 67xx - RLO seating 26 with loose lounge seats, telephone booth in place of the luggage rack and a pantry with microwave and storage area. Some had a small bar counter like the 12xx vehicles.

On the West Coast 12 former Mark 3 HST kitchen cars (405xx series), 18 surplus Mark 3A FOs and the original 28 Mark 3A Restaurant Buffet Firsts (RFBs) were all rebuilt as Restaurant Buffet Firsts (Modular) or RFMs. This was to standardise the West a Coast catering fleet dye to the mixed Mark 2/3 fleet that operated with the RFBs, Mark 1 RBRs and Mark 1 Kitchen Buffets (the latter in the Manchester Pullman 3B sets).

The Mark 3A RFBs were essentially the same as the HST TRUBs (403xx)/TRFBs (407xx). One (40719) was rebuilt to trial the Modular catering concept as a TRFM and renumbered 40619. For a number of year some it was used in the Master Cutler set and then shortly before privatisation it became a spare vehicle with CrossCountry due to being non-standard (it was excluded from the kitchen/Buffet rebuild InterCity did on the HST catering vehicles in the early 1990s).

The purpose built Mark 3 buffets (10001-28) for the West Coast were actually RUBs. I would argue that in some ways the LHCS RFM is actually a better vehicle than the HST 407xx TRFB as it provides a vehicle with very similar functionality but uses space much better, such that it allows half the vehicle to be seating (i.e. 4 window "bays" out of 8) whereas the TRFB only has 3 window bays out of 8 available for seating. This seems to be because the TRFBs have an unnecessarily long buffet counter. Having been in one of the smaller 402xx buffets recently - where the buffet/kitchen footprint takes up half the vehicle like an RFM - I was shocked at just how poor the kitchen area is with a very poor use of space for the buffet.

40619 was (I think) the last HST vehicle in InterCity livery and after Virgin XC had finished with it, it became 977995 in the NMT fleet.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Thanks all, much clearer now!

 

[ainsworth74]

I remember staff having to account for every plastic cup. Staff would buy their own bread and fillings for less than a £, would make sandwiches on the train and sell them at BR prices and pocket the vast profits.

And I bet passengers preferred these fraudulent sandwiches to the ones that BR expected their staff to serve