Bushey to Euston season ticket valid via Watford Junction?

[freddie1729]

Sorry if this has been asked before. Is it valid to travel from Bushey to Euston via Watford Junction in the following circumstances (all tickets Bushey to Euston):

• Paper Single Ticket
• Paper Season Ticket
• Oyster PAYG - (I recall a previous thread saying this is allowed)
• Oyster Season Ticket

According to RailMiles, the distance between Bushey and Watford Junction is 1mi 35ch or 1mi 54ch on the Overground, if this is relevant.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Sorry if this has been asked before. Is it valid to travel from Bushey to Euston via Watford Junction in the following circumstances (all tickets Bushey to Euston):

• Paper Single Ticket
• Paper Season Ticket
• Oyster PAYG - (I recall a previous thread saying this is allowed)
• Oyster Season Ticket

According to RailMiles, the distance between Bushey and Watford Junction is 1mi 35ch or 1mi 54ch on the Overground, if this is relevant.

Why not just buy a Watford to Euston season ticket?

 

[freddie1729]

Why not just buy a Watford to Euston season ticket?

To save £652.

There are services from Bushey to Euston I'd use normally, but sometimes it's quicker via Watford Junction.

 

[Watershed]

Paper Single Ticket

Yes - in fact changing at Watford Junction is shown for around a third of the suggested itineraries (without entering any via points). However only the London Northwestern Railway service that avoids Watford High Street is suggested. As it happens, that train connects well at WFJ with a quick WFJ-EUS service in the BSH-EUS direction.

Paper Season Ticket

Yes, although here I think it would be advisable to buy your ticket in conjunction with an itinerary showing the validity of the route via Watford Junction. Websites such as the old MixingDeck TPE interface offer such a capability.

Oyster PAYG

You can take whichever route you like when travelling on PAYG, subject to the provisos that you must:

1. Tap in and out
2. Remain within the Oyster PAYG area
3. Tap any pink reader you pass when changing trains
4. Have sufficient credit for the cost of your journey (or alternatively have Auto Top-up enabled)
5. Remain within the maximum journey time, as appropriate the number of zones travelled through, and the time of day and day of the week

Oyster Season Ticket

If you comply with all the conditions outlined above for Oyster PAYG, then you can similarly travel via any route you like. If you don't comply with all of the conditions for PAYG then you can only travel within the zones/stations of your season ticket.

According to RailMiles, the distance between Bushey and Watford Junction is 1mi 35ch or 1mi 54ch on the Overground, if this is relevant.

This is potentially relevant, inasmuch as you can travel by any route no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route. On that basis travelling via Watford High Street wouldn't be permitted.

However that relies on the Routeing Guide in Detail, which suggests that mileages should be calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable. That timetable isn't currently being published but it has the issue if rounding mileages to the nearest quarter mile, and of sometimes being inaccurate in terms of distances.

So it's possible that it would say the mileage via Watford Junction is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, even though in reality it isn't.

Far easier to simply rely on an itinerary given by a booking engine when buying your ticket - or to use Oyster in PAYG mode.

To save £652.

There are services from Bushey to Euston I'd use normally, but sometimes it's quicker via Watford Junction.

If travelling from Bushey I would have no hesitation in travelling via Watford Junction in accordance with an itinerary (or on Oyster/contactless PAYG).

If you intend to travel from Watford Junction, I would carefully consider whether the difficulties you are likely to regularly encounter at the barriers are worth the saving...

 

[MikeWh]

1. Tap any pink reader you pass when changing trains

I see this quoted quite a bit. As pink readers are supposed to potentially offer a cheaper fare, the compulsion is to touch one to get that cheaper fare. The only penalty if you don't touch pink is that you won't get any potentially cheaper fare. If you know that there is no cheaper fare available then there is no need to touch a pink reader.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The May 2020 eNRT (Tables 60 and 66) gives Bushey - Watford Junction as 1.5 miles direct and 1.75 via Watford High Street.

Not surprisingly, Watford Junction fails a fares check...but so does Willesden Junction because it only has fares explicitly to Euston in NFM64, whereas Bushey only has fares to London Terminals.

As an aside, NRE will only offer a Bushey - Euston fare for journeys that use LNR services between Bushey and Watford Junction. For connections involving London Overground, it says you need separate Bushey - Watford Junction and Watford Junction - Euston tickets.

 

[Watershed]

I see this quoted quite a bit. As pink readers are supposed to potentially offer a cheaper fare, the compulsion is to touch one to get that cheaper fare. The only penalty if you don't touch pink is that you won't get any potentially cheaper fare. If you know that there is no cheaper fare available then there is no need to touch a pink reader.

Condition 3.17 of the Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services makes it compulsory to touch any pink reader you pass when changing trains:

If you pass a pink card reader when changing from one train to another, and you are using your Oyster card to pay as you go for any part of your journey, but not starting or finishing your journey at the station concerned, you must touch your card on the pink card reader to ensure you pay the appropriate pay as you go fare for the route you are taking.

There are certainly circumstances in which I could imagine a TOC taking umbrage (to say the least) to a passenger failing to touch a pink reader. Anyway, Watford Junction does not have pink Oyster readers so this doesn't affect the OP's issue.

 

[MikeWh]

You've split the sentence in two. The whole part says "you must touch your card on the pink card reader to ensure you pay the appropriate pay as you go fare for the route you are taking". Pink readers are supposed to offer a cheaper fare than the default, hence to get that cheaper fare you have to touch the pink reader. If you don't touch the pink reader you won't get the cheaper fare. That's your choice. 3.17 is also out of date because you now often need to touch pink when using a travelcard for your entire journey.

There are occasionally a few cases where TOCs screw up their fares and end up making a pink reader charge more. These are usually corrected as soon as they are spotted. They are not supposed to happen.

 

[matt_world2004]

For the ease of convenience I would get a Bushey to Euston ticket on Oyster put a little bit of pay as you go credit on there touch in at Bushey and out at Euston..

 

[Hadders]

I agree with getting the Bushey ticket and having a small amount of PAYG credit.

 

[RJ]

Why not just buy a Watford to Euston season ticket?

Some people have clocked onto the fact that you can get more value out of a rail ticket by knowing what routes it entitles you to take. Same goes for break of journey privileges, being able to interchange trains on one ticket etc. Many people waste money on their rail fares because they don't know how the tickets work. I know people who have bought a One Day Travelcard, then used Oyster to travel on the tube and buses for example. Others buy a ticket for each leg of their journey, because they haven't been taught about how through ticketing works.

Bushey to London has been valid via Watford Junction for years by virtue of the rules in the National Routeing Guide, so it's 100% legit. There's no requirement for the OP to shell out extra for a Watford Junction ticket.

 

[Egg Centric]

As I live between Watford High Street and Bushey and use both, please could you clarify if:

1. This applies to Watford High Street as well
2. This applies when using contactless?

 

[Watershed]

As I live between Watford High Street and Bushey and use both, please could you clarify if:

1. This applies to Watford High Street as well
2. This applies when using contactless?

1) Watford High Street to London Euston tickets are valid via Watford Junction. That route is 1.5 miles longer than the shortest route and thus within the 3 mile allowance.

2) See my post #4 above. When using contactless or Oyster, you can take whatever route you like, so long as you comply with the normal PAYG rules. Therefore going via Watford Junction is permitted.

 

[Andrew1395]

I would be wary of this advice. While Watford High street with a paper Any Permitted ticket to Euston is valid for interchange at Watford Junction. with Oyster you would need to tap Out and back in again asWatford Junction is in a higher priced PAYG zone (its own unique one) to Zone 8 or 9.

I have not checked, but i am surprised Bushey to Euston via Watford Junction does not fail the fares check, which would make Watford Junction an inappropriate origin routing point for Bushey on journeys to or viola Willesden Junction to Euston and beyond. This which would trump the 3 mile rule. That 3 mile allowances only applies to routes that meet all other routing rules For the ticket held.

But no doubt others will be able to explain why this is not advice to rely on. It is something to consider as both Bushey and Watford high Street are in penalty fare zones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be wary of this advice. While Watford High street with a paper Any Permitted ticket to Euston is valid for interchange at Watford Junction. with Oyster you would need to tap Out and back in again asWatford Junction is in a higher priced PAYG zone (its own unique one) to Zone 8 or 9.

PAYG doesn't work on that basis, it works on the basis of an assumed set of zones crossed. Tapping in mid-journey is only relevant to reduce the fare, e.g. where the assumption would be to go via zone 1 when you didn't.

If you have a tapped-in Oyster card or contactless card and do not cross the boundary of the entire system or leave a station, and you don't "time out", it is impossible for it not to be valid. Oyster/contactless doesn't work on the basis of Permitted Routes.

I have not checked, but i am surprised Bushey too Euston via Watford Junction does not fail the fares check, which would make it an inappropriate routing point, which would trump the 3 mile rule. That only applies to routes that meet all other rules.

It's valid with a point to point paper ticket because it's no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, not because of anything to do with routeing points. Therefore the fare check is not relevant.

Presumably that's why it doesn't work via Watford High St, because that's further? Bushey to WFJ up the mainline, looking at an OS map, looks to be pretty much exactly, or only *just* under, a mile and a half.

 

[Hadders]

I would be wary of this advice. While Watford High street with a paper Any Permitted ticket to Euston is valid for interchange at Watford Junction. with Oyster you would need to tap Out and back in again asWatford Junction is in a higher priced PAYG zone (its own unique one) to Zone 8 or 9.

I have not checked, but i am surprised Bushey to Euston via Watford Junction does not fail the fares check, which would make Watford Junction an inappropriate origin routing point for Bushey on journeys to or viola Willesden Junction to Euston and beyond. This which would trump the 3 mile rule. That 3 mile allowances only applies to routes that meet all other routing rules For the ticket held.

But no doubt others will be able to explain why this is not advice to rely on. It is something to consider as both Bushey and Watford high Street are in penalty fare zones.

This is incorrect.

There is no requirement to tap out and tap back in again at Watford Junction if using PAYG on contactless or Oyster.

 

[yorkie]

Watford High St - London Euston IS valid via Watford Jn
Bushey - London Euston is NOT valid via Watford Jn

If interchanging at Watford Jn there is no need to tap any readers.

The fares check rule is not relevant when determining the validity of a ticket under the shortest route rule.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I would be wary of this advice. While Watford High street with a paper Any Permitted ticket to Euston is valid for interchange at Watford Junction. with Oyster you would need to tap Out and back in again asWatford Junction is in a higher priced PAYG zone (its own unique one) to Zone 8 or 9.

I have not checked, but i am surprised Bushey to Euston via Watford Junction does not fail the fares check, which would make Watford Junction an inappropriate origin routing point for Bushey on journeys to or viola Willesden Junction to Euston and beyond. This which would trump the 3 mile rule. That 3 mile allowances only applies to routes that meet all other routing rules For the ticket held.

But no doubt others will be able to explain why this is not advice to rely on. It is something to consider as both Bushey and Watford high Street are in penalty fare zones.

This is rubbish. With Oyster PAYG/Contactless, as long as you are tapped in, you stay within the PAYG/Contactless area, and you are within the time limits, you are valid. The fare you pay is not based upon the zones you physically travel through, the fare is based upon the zones assumed you travel through.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bushey - London Euston is NOT valid via Watford Jn

That's odd. I originally thought it wasn't and was about to post that, and then I looked it up on nationalrail.co.uk and it came up as valid. Now it doesn't. Has something changed, e.g. a negative easement of some sort?

It clearly is on PAYG though; Permitted Routes are of no relevance to that.

 

[Watershed]

That's odd. I originally thought it wasn't and was about to post that, and then I looked it up on nationalrail.co.uk and it came up as valid. Now it doesn't. Has something changed, e.g. a negative easement of some sort?

It clearly is on PAYG though; Permitted Routes are of no relevance to that.

No negative easements have been published in "paper" form yet. The mileage data might have been changed to invalidate it.

Some sites are still allowing that route, presumably because they haven't refreshed the data feed since whatever change was made.

 

[Andrew1395]

This is rubbish. With Oyster PAYG/Contactless, as long as you are tapped in, you stay within the PAYG/Contactless area, and you are within the time limits, you are valid. The fare you pay is not based upon the zones you physically travel through, the fare is based upon the zones assumed you travel through.

Well, that is not the way Oyster works at Bushey as explained to me by TfL/London Overground revenue staff. They dont have pink card readers on the platforms at Watford junction or Bushey, but they do have yellow ones at the platform entrances within the subways as you exit/enter platforms. Pre pandemic, there were regular checks at Bushey catching and telling people from Platform 1 to tap out, after they had tapped in at Carpenders Park (zone 7) and traveled on London Overground to change trains at Bushey (zone 8) to get the fast LNW service to Euston (Zone 1). They are not treating those journeys as an interchange but as2 journeys, a zone 7-8 + a Zone 8 -1 PAYG.Does London Overground have unique PAYG rules?

If that is wrong as it is both cheaper to tap in at Carpenders park and quicker to interchange at either Bushey or Watford Junction then those people travelling from Carpenders Park have been treated incorrectly by TfL. It is also under 3 miles from Carpenders Park to Bushey so is valid.

It’s a long time since i worked with the Routeing guide, so if the shortest journey trumps all then Bushey to Watford Junction on the mainline must be valid as its under 1.5 miles Between them. Going via Watford High Street adds about 1and 3/4 miles. So that plus the mainline back through Bushey would just fail the 3 mile aggregate. Watford High Street to watford junction is under a mile. And about the same distance to Bushey, so the extra mileage is only the mainline between Watford Junction and Bushey. So that always has worked. But why do journey planners deny Bushey to Euston via Watford Junction? I wonder if it is because timetable information is using TIPLOCs with different mileages?

 

[MikeWh]

Well, that is not the way Oyster works, as soon as you change train when you have travelled to a higher priced zone, you have to touch out. They dont have pink card readers on the platforms at Watford junction, but they do at the platform entrances within the subways. You are liable for the fare for the zones you travel through. That’s why pre pandemic, there were regular checks at Bushey catching and telling people to tap out and back in again (or charging people penalay fares), to those who tapped in at Carpenders Park (zone 7) to travel on London Overground to change trains at Bushey (zone 8) to get the fast LNW service to Euston (Zone 1).

That is completely against the conditions of travel using Oyster. The requirement is to touch in at the start of the journey and out at the end of the journey. There is no requirement to touch out and in again if changing trains en-route.

If you know of anyone who has been overcharged in this way then I will be pleased to help them get back any extra fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, that is not the way Oyster works, as soon as you change train when you have travelled to a higher priced zone, you have to touch out.

No, you don't. Pink validators are expressly for the purpose of proving you went via a cheaper route in order to get a lower fare. You are never required to touch them, though given their purpose it is obviously to your benefit to do so.

The only things you are required to do to use Oyster PAYG or contactless on the railway and/or LU validly are:

• Touch in at the start
• Touch out at the end
• Not leave the overall area of validity
• Not exceed the "timeouts" (so you can't touch in and ride round the Circle Line all day, say)

The whole point of it is that you don't need to concern yourself with Zones, fares or anything like that. You just touch things as instructed and will be charged correctly.

 

[RJ]

I'm in agreement with the majority here. You only need to worry about zoning if you're a Travelcard holder - and even then, simply having enough credit to make a journey is all that's needed to comply with the rules.

 

[Andrew1395]

No, you don't. Pink validators are expressly for the purpose of proving you went via a cheaper route in order to get a lower fare. You are never required to touch them, though given their purpose it is obviously to your benefit to do so.

The only things you are required to do to use Oyster PAYG or contactless on the railway and/or LU validly are:

• Touch in at the start
• Touch out at the end
• Not leave the overall area of validity
• Not exceed the "timeouts" (so you can't touch in and ride round the Circle Line all day, say)

The whole point of it is that you don't need to concern yourself with Zones, fares or anything like that. You just touch things as instructed and will be charged correctly.

Ok so it might be that people with oyster based season tickets are getting caught, which is different from using PAYG. So if you have a Oyster season ticket from Carpenders Park you get fined, but that subtlety is not explained when you are challenged. Most people seem to use contactless if they are just using PAYG. And once one person is told to tap out, we all do!

Still does not explain why the mileages don't allow you to go via Watford Junction from Bushey on journey planners.

 

[RJ]

Watford High St - London Euston IS valid via Watford Jn
Bushey - London Euston is NOT valid via Watford Jn

If interchanging at Watford Jn there is no need to tap any readers.

The fares check rule is not relevant when determining the validity of a ticket under the shortest route rule.

No negative easements have been published in "paper" form yet. The mileage data might have been changed to invalidate it.

Some sites are still allowing that route, presumably because they haven't refreshed the data feed since whatever change was made.

You can't make this stuff up . Has someone specifically added an exclusion at Watford Junction for Bushey tickets to the fares data in the last few days?

 

[Andrew1395]

That is completely against the conditions of travel using Oyster. The requirement is to touch in at the start of the journey and out at the end of the journey. There is no requirement to touch out and in again if changing trains en-route.

If you know of anyone who has been overcharged in this way then I will be pleased to help them get back any extra fares.

I can do that myself, but thanks for the offer; now that i get the rules that are different for a season on Oyster in terms of permitted routes and PAYG.

 

[MikeWh]

Ok so it might be that people with oyster based season tickets are getting caught, which is different from using PAYG. So if you have a Oyster season ticket from Carpenders Park you get fined, but that subtlety is not explained when you are challenged. Most people seem to use contactless if they are just using PAYG. Only Oyster for PAYG.

No, the rules are no different for travelcards or PAYG. You still touch in at the start and out at the end. The system charges a fare taking into account any travelcard held on the Oystercard. If you have a zones 1-7 travelcard and travel from Carpenders Park to Euston via Bushey there should be no extra charge. Any staff saying otherwise need retraining.

Edit: I would advise having a small PAYG balance on the Oyster so that the intent is there to pay for zone 8 if necessary, but the system won't charge it if no exit at Bushey is made.

 

[RJ]

Even with PAYG. If you want to double back, take a circuitous route, travel in circles or zig zag around, you're allowed to. So long as you touch in and out when required and abide by the time limits.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ok so it might be that people with oyster based season tickets are getting caught, which is different from using PAYG. So if you have a Oyster season ticket from Carpenders Park you get fined, but that subtlety is not explained when you are challenged. Most people seem to use contactless if they are just using PAYG. And once one person is told to tap out, we all do!

Yes, if you had a Travelcard season on it and had no PAYG balance[1], or you had not touched in (which isn't required for a season), you would be invalid.

[1] Even though TfL would not take any of the PAYG balance because the system wouldn't know you'd done the double-back. The balance would be required because you might exit at Bushey or Watford Junction, which would debit the extra.