Bushey to Euston season ticket valid via Watford Junction?

[Surreytraveller]

Ok so it might be that people with oyster based season tickets are getting caught, which is different from using PAYG. So if you have a Oyster season ticket from Carpenders Park you get fined, but that subtlety is not explained when you are challenged. Most people seem to use contactless if they are just using PAYG. And once one person is told to tap out, we all do!

Still does not explain why the mileages don't allow you to go via Watford Junction from Bushey on journey planners.

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but you cannot have a point to point season on an Oystercard. So you won't have a season from Capenders Park on it. You can only have Travelcard seasons on an Oystercard, which will be valid for certain zones.
You can use that Oystercard with a Travelcard season on it outside the zones on the Travelcard, as long as you have tapped in and have a PAYG balance on the Oystercard.
Whether you get charged anything depends upon what the PAYG fare would have been for the journey in the first place

No, you don't. Pink validators are expressly for the purpose of proving you went via a cheaper route in order to get a lower fare. You are never required to touch them, though given their purpose it is obviously to your benefit to do so.

The only things you are required to do to use Oyster PAYG or contactless on the railway and/or LU validly are:

• Touch in at the start
• Touch out at the end
• Not leave the overall area of validity
• Not exceed the "timeouts" (so you can't touch in and ride round the Circle Line all day, say)

The whole point of it is that you don't need to concern yourself with Zones, fares or anything like that. You just touch things as instructed and will be charged correctly.

I wonder whether a pink reader could result in you being charged extra if you travel outside the zones held on a Travelcard season, when otherwise you wouldn't if you hadn't tapped the reader?

 

[yorkie]

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but you cannot have a point to point season on an Oystercard. So you won't have a season from Capenders Park on it. You can only have Travelcard seasons on an Oystercard, which will be valid for certain zones.
You can use that Oystercard with a Travelcard season on it outside the zones on the Travelcard, as long as you have tapped in and have a PAYG balance on the Oystercard.
Whether you get charged anything depends upon what the PAYG fare would have been for the journey in the first place

That's correct.

I wonder whether a pink reader could result in you being charged extra if you travel outside the zones held on a Travelcard season, when otherwise you wouldn't if you hadn't tapped the reader?

Someone tried that (at Richmond I think?) and it did charge more.

There is no need to tap any readers at Watford Junction.

 

[Andrew1395]

So why do you need PAYG balance on your oyster card with a Carpenders park season ticket to work (monthly travel card) to travel via Bushey to Euston?

From what I gather a 1-7 travelcard on oyster but no PAYG balance cant travel via zone 8. But someone using contactless or oyster card PAYG who has tapped in at Carpenders Park can? There seems conflicting views. Can you travel via a higher priced zone or not, if you are interchanging?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So why do you need PAYG balance on your oyster card with a Carpenders park season ticket to work (monthly travel card) to travel via Bushey to Euston?

Because to go outside the validity of a Travelcard season, you need the ability to pay any excess if you then exit the system, such as if you exit at Watford Junction rather than simply interchanging there.

From what I gather a 1-7 travelcard on oyster but no PAYG balance cant travel via zone 8. But someone using contactless or oyster card PAYG who has tapped in at Carpenders Park can? There seems conflicting views. Can you travel via a higher priced zone or not, if you are interchanging?

So far as I am aware, yes you can, provided you have tapped in and have adequate PAYG balance. It so happens that the charge for doing this is £0, because there isn't (and can't be) any evidence of what you've done at Watford/Bushey. If you exited, you would be charged for 2 journeys, which is not what has happened.

It's the presence of PAYG balance and a touch-in that changes the rules. If you have touched in with an Oyster with PAYG balance, what is important is where you leave the system plus any optional pink validators you touched. TfL will assume the route you took, it doesn't actually matter if you took a different one. As another example, there are journeys where it's assumed you will not go via Zone 1, but if you do no extra charge is made.

Accepting this is part of the nature of PAYG, which tries to implement a fares structure intended for paper tickets onto a smartcard.

Someone tried that (at Richmond I think?) and it did charge more.

There is no need to tap any readers at Watford Junction.

Indeed, pink readers are always optional.

 

[yorkie]

So why do you need PAYG balance on your oyster card with a Carpenders park season ticket to work (monthly travel card) to travel via Bushey to Euston?

If you have a Zones 1-7 Season and travel from Carpenders Park to Euston, you must additionally hold PAYG credit if you wish to travel via Bushey. This is because the PAYG credit covers you for any potential charge (even if none is actually made) to cover the fact your journey strays beyond Zone 7.

From what I gather a 1-7 travelcard on oyster but no PAYG balance cant travel via zone 8.

Correct; if you have no PAYG balance then it could be argued you have no means to pay for any extension that may be charged.

But someone using contactless or oyster card PAYG who has tapped in at Carpenders Park can?

Absolutely

There seems conflicting views. Can you travel via a higher priced zone or not, if you are interchanging?

There is no conflicting view on this thread posted by anyone else, that I know of (without going through every reply to check), I believe the PAYG experts on here are unanimous on this!

You can go via a higher priced zone when interchanging providing you are using PAYG (or using a combination of Travelcard and PAYG held on the same Oyster card; in which case you may not be charged for the PAYG element but by having the balance your are demonstrating willingness & ability to pay)

If there is ever a conflicting view on here relating to PAYG, then I would always bow to @MikeWh's impeccable knowledge in this area. Almost every possible quirk or nuance in the PAYG system has been put to the test.

I believe one of the earliest examples of this concept, which dates back to the very early days of Osyter (when it was a TfL thing only and not available on most National Rail services, with a few exceptions), relates to a journey from Neasden to central London, which is absolutely valid via Wembley Park. But would not be valid if a Travelcard was held which only covers Zones 1-3 and no PAYG credit was additionally held on that card.

 

[freddie1729]

Bushey - London Euston is NOT valid via Watford Jn

Could you explain this one please? Isn't it valid because it's only 3 miles more than the shortest route?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could you explain this one please? Isn't it valid because it's only 3 miles more than the shortest route?

It was, but something has changed so it now isn't. Not quite sure what.

 

[yorkie]

Could you explain this one please? Isn't it valid because it's only 3 miles more than the shortest route?

Sorry my post wasn't very clear and I was also forgetting that these days there is a direct WCML train non-stop between Bushey & Watford Jn. I was thinking purely in terms of travelling via Watford High Street in one direction and on the fast train in the other.

The distances are as follows:

Bushey - Watford High St - Watford Jn is 1.71 miles
Bushey - Watford Jn direct is 1.45 miles

Total is therefore more than 3 miles unless you go direct both ways.

So if you take a West Midlands Trains (WMT) operated train from London Euston to Watford Jn which did not call at Bushey, that's fine (as it's 2.9 miles longer than the shortest route), but technically you'd have to continue your journey to Bushey on WMT , not London Overground.

There are some reports that the shortest route data has changed during the course of this thread, to invalidate the above but I cannot verify this. It would not surprise me if this was done, as Rail Delivery Group keep a close eye on this forum, and can get away with making unilateral changes as the relevant authorities (ORR/DfT) cannot decide which one of them are supposed to be checking for changes and neither seems to be notified of RDG of any such changes, nor are they interested in challenging RDG with any of these changes. There have been some very enlightening FOI requests on the subject, and if a change has occured with this data, it would be interesting to see what comes back from another FOI request, if anyone does put one in.

 

[Egg Centric]

Even with PAYG. If you want to double back, take a circuitous route, travel in circles or zig zag around, you're allowed to. So long as you touch in and out when required and abide by the time limits.

Let's get even more hypothetical - now that I know about this I'm going to take advantage of it. Suppose I am planning on making a journey from Watford High Street to... somewhere... and I take a northbound Overground service to Watford Junction to change onto a faster train where previously I would have taken the Overground all the way to Euston. Just as I arrive at Wattford Junction there is an incident and all southbound traffic is stopped for a few hours. Am I treated any differently from someone who didn't have the ability to take a more 'conventional' route?

(This sort of thing is why I'm looking forward to the fares workshops opening up again!)

 

[yorkie]

Let's get even more hypothetical - now that I know about this I'm going to take advantage of it. Suppose I am planning on making a journey from Watford High Street to... somewhere... and I take a northbound Overground service to Watford Junction to change onto a faster train where previously I would have taken the Overground all the way to Euston. Just as I arrive at Wattford Junction there is an incident and all southbound traffic is stopped for a few hours. Am I treated any differently from someone who didn't have the ability to take a more 'conventional' route?

(This sort of thing is why I'm looking forward to the fares workshops opening up again!)

I don't think you would or should be; indeed if you are going to anywhere via Euston it would almost always be quicker to change at Watford Jn (the exception to this is where there is a good connection at Bushey or Harrow & Wealdstone).

 

[PeterC]

Could you explain this one please? Isn't it valid because it's only 3 miles more than the shortest route?

As a layman this thread is getting me confused. Does the "3 mile rule" trump "no doubling back" or is/was there a specific easement for this route?



As an aside I understand how Oyster works on entry and exit but if the card was checked with a hand held reader at Watford Junction before doubling back would that cause a PAYG payment to cover the special zone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a layman this thread is getting me confused. Does the "3 mile rule" trump "no doubling back" or is/was there a specific easement for this route?

Doubling back is only relevant to mapped routes. It's not relevant to the "shortest route or within 3 miles of it" or "direct train" rules.

 

[yorkie]

As a layman this thread is getting me confused. Does the "3 mile rule" trump "no doubling back" or is/was there a specific easement for this route?

The 3 mile allowance applies to the shortest route.

There is no blanket "no doubling back" rule, but there is a general rule against doubling back when following the maps (not relevant here) and of course double calls at the destination station (and arguably origin) are generally not allowed.

However PAYG has rather different rules, and as long as you tap in and out correctly, and don't do anything totally crazy, you can pretty much take any route you like.

 

[Surreytraveller]

As a layman this thread is getting me confused. Does the "3 mile rule" trump "no doubling back" or is/was there a specific easement for this route?



As an aside I understand how Oyster works on entry and exit but if the card was checked with a hand held reader at Watford Junction before doubling back would that cause a PAYG payment to cover the special zone?

No, it doesn't result in an extra charge. With Oyster you can take any route you like, as long as you tap in, and remain within the Oyster area. If you hadn't tapped in, and you were outside the zones on your Travelcard or didn't have any PAYG, then that would result in a Penalty Fare

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it doesn't result in an extra charge. With Oyster you can take any route you like, as long as you tap in, and remain within the Oyster area. If you hadn't tapped in, and you were outside the zones on your Travelcard or didn't have any PAYG, then that would result in a Penalty Fare

Though apparently a pink reader can do that.

 

[island]

That's correct.


Someone tried that (at Richmond I think?) and it did charge more.

There is no need to tap any readers at Watford Junction.

That was me. I travelled Clapham Junction to Wimbledon via Richmond With a Z1-3 Travelcard, and was not charged despite touching the pink reader at Richmond.

It may work differently on fully PAYG.

 

[yorkie]

That was me. I travelled Clapham Junction to Wimbledon via Richmond With a Z1-3 Travelcard, and was not charged despite touching the pink reader at Richmond.

It may work differently on fully PAYG.

Ah I wonder if that's changed or maybe I misremembered it! @MikeWh may know.

 

[MikeWh]

PAYG should ignore the pink touch at Richmond as well. The problem will occur if you didn't touch in at Clapham Junction and then touched the pink reader at Richmond as that would be treated as an entry in zone 4.

 

[Mojo]

They dont have pink card readers on the platforms at Watford junction or Bushey, but they do have yellow ones at the platform entrances within the subways as you exit/enter platforms. Pre pandemic, there were regular checks at Bushey catching and telling people from Platform 1 to tap out, after they had tapped in at Carpenders Park (zone 7) and traveled on London Overground to change trains at Bushey (zone 8) to get the fast LNW service to Euston (Zone 1). They are not treating those journeys as an interchange but as2 journeys, a zone 7-8 + a Zone 8 -1 PAYG.

That is completely against the conditions of travel using Oyster. The requirement is to touch in at the start of the journey and out at the end of the journey. There is no requirement to touch out and in again if changing trains en-route.

It also doesn't make sense, because you cannot touch out and then immediately touch in on a standalone yellow Oyster reader (such as those at Watford Jcn at the end of the Overground platforms and in the subway and also those at Bushey), as there is a time period where any repeated touches will just replicate the previous action, so someone touching on the reader after having travelled from Carpenders Park will be touched out, and an immediate second touch will still not touch them in.

 

[PeterC]

It also doesn't make sense, because you cannot touch out and then immediately touch in on a standalone yellow Oyster reader (such as those at Watford Jcn at the end of the Overground platforms and in the subway and also those at Bushey), as there is a time period where any repeated touches will just replicate the previous action, so someone touching on the reader after having travelled from Carpenders Park will be touched out, and an immediate second touch will still not touch them in.

If you touch your card on a freestanding reader in mid-journey then it is disregarded if you touch out at a gateline.

People regularly did this at Chalfont when the shuttle ran sometimes even using the readers on both platforms.

I don't know how it would be treated if you subsequently completed the journey at a free standing reader.

 

[BrianW]

50 responses so far, and (to my mind) no clarity.
It's now wonder potential travellers don't bother.
You couldn't make it up!
Where should someone find the RIGHT answer, always, no ifs, no buts ...?

 

[yorkie]

50 responses so far, and (to my mind) no clarity.
It's now wonder potential travellers don't bother.
You couldn't make it up!
Where should someone find the RIGHT answer, always, no ifs, no buts ...?

If a Travelcard is held on Oyster and is tapped in & out at the start and end of the journey it is indisputably valid via Watford Junction. No-one is disputing that.

 

[Mojo]

If you touch your card on a freestanding reader in mid-journey then it is disregarded if you touch out at a gateline.

People regularly did this at Chalfont when the shuttle ran sometimes even using the readers on both platforms.

You are describing here what is termed a ‘Continuation exit’ and only applies to the standalone validators at a small number of stations (of which Chalfont is one, and Watford Jcn is another). This is the exception rather than the rule, and the touch out would not be disregarded at the majority of validators, including in the examples that Andrew gave of Bushey. The point that I made still stands, in that it is not possible to touch out, and then immediately touch back in again, on a standalone validator. This could only be done at a gateline.

 

[MikeWh]

The point that I made still stands, in that it is not possible to touch out, and then immediately touch back in again, on a standalone validator. This could only be done at a gateline.

Absolutely. Touch out on a validator requires 2 minutes to pass before you can touch in at the same station on any validator. If the validators are set to continuation exit then 2 minutes becomes 15.

 

[A Challenge]

PAYG should ignore the pink touch at Richmond as well. The problem will occur if you didn't touch in at Clapham Junction and then touched the pink reader at Richmond as that would be treated as an entry in zone 4.

Has this situation changed with regards to pink readers again then?

Pink Readers – Interchange only – Oyster Fares Central

www.oyster-rail.org.uk

I’ve just been informed that TfL has tightened up the use of pink readers from an unspecified date in March such that they will no longer start a journey if the Oyster card is not touched in at the time. Sadly it appears as though the fact that this was an unpublished feature means that they don’t see a need to communicate it to everyone.

 

[MikeWh]

Has this situation changed with regards to pink readers again then?

Pink Readers – Interchange only – Oyster Fares Central

www.oyster-rail.org.uk

I think this was just a blip at the time - 3.5 years ago. Never did get to the bottom of what happened.