Bushey Trap and Drag: Questions for Traincrew and Dispatchers.

[Bromley boy]

And if they run onto the platform during dispatch and are unsuccessful in boarding, they call to you and want to know why you closed the doors and wouldn't let them board, which they seem to view as misconduct?

I get the sense you’re speaking from experience there - yes indeed.

I’ve even seen someone bellowing at dispatch staff from inside the station cafe to “hold the train!” (already late, full and standing, with up to 1000 passengers on it) because they hadn’t finished paying for their latte.

Needless to say they ended up waiting for the next one!

 

[Intermodal]

I get the sense you’re speaking from experience there - yes indeed.

I’ve even seen someone bellowing at dispatch staff from inside the station cafe to “hold the train!” (already late, full and standing, with up to 1000 passengers on it) because they hadn’t finished paying for their latte.

Needless to say they ended up waiting for the next one!

This one particularly tickled me!

 

[Bikeman78]

It's not sensitive enough to pick up on a thin piece of clothing being trapped, so no, it's just another aid for the driver (DOO) or guard who still needs to use the Mk1 eyeball to ensure it is clear.

How do automatic trains such as the DLR work? Presumably the train moves as soon as it gets door interlock without any intervention from a person? There's no way that the on board supervisor could see all the doors because they will be shut inside the train.

 

[Bikeman78]

Of course it doesn’t help that we have a high-profile case where an intoxicated and drugged-up youth was playing around at the side of a train and ignored a safety instruction shouted to her, during a train dispatch which in every other respect apart from the presence of this youth was quite properly able to be dispatched, and the guard ended up with a lengthy prison sentence. I still find that highly objectionable.

I'd like to know who would have got the blame if she had leaned on a DLR train.

 

[Bikeman78]

I don't disagree with any of that but I'd like to see the TOCs and manufacturers pay more attention to ensuring that the doors will reopen, at the slightest indication of a problem. I'm sure many passengers are more than used to lift doors and Tube door reopening if they put an arm/leg in the way - there's every likelihood that they will expect a train door to work the same.
I know there have been issues over it then becoming over-sensitive, and delaying despatch - hence my wish for more work to be done to investigate what can still be improved.

It’s the people who run onto the platform during dispatch and swan dive through the doors as they are closing that get me. They generally either succeed in wresteling the doors open and getting on (I generally don’t re release as that can be a can of worms). I’ve had several who’ve almost ended up falling between the train and the platform.

What's the problem with re-releasing the doors? Happens quite a lot around Glasgow in my experience.

 

[dcbwhaley]

It is quite clear from reading this thread that no one should be allowed to travel by train unless they have been on a three day safety training course.

More seriously: if safety depends on untrained people behaving in a predictable fashion then it ain't safe. Indeed, expecting trained people to behave predictably is a bit iffy. Safety has to be engineered into the system not be reliant on the behaviour of human beings

 

[pt_mad]

I'd like to know who would have got the blame if she had leaned on a DLR train.

Out of interest, what is the dispatch process for the DLR? Does dispatch involve platform staff doing a visual check? Or does the train just move off if interlock is gained, possibly contradicting the classic railway procedures?

What's the problem with re-releasing the doors? Happens quite a lot around Glasgow in my experience.

Well it isn't procedure or in the rule book. The RSSB rulebook applicable to all operators states that you must tell passengers to stand clear. You'd only release the doors of it wasn't going to delay the train at all, or if they refused to stand clear and you'd end up shouting stand clear all day if you didn't. For late passengers the procedure is to instruct to stand clear rather than showing that running for trains at departure time will get results.

It is quite clear from reading this thread that no one should be allowed to travel by train unless they have been on a three day safety training course.

More seriously: if safety depends on untrained people behaving in a predictable fashion then it ain't safe. Indeed, expecting trained people to behave predictably is a bit iffy. Safety has to be engineered into the system not be reliant on the behaviour of human beings

Yes, but would anyone try to dive on a bus or try to open a bus door as it was pulling off? They do for trains. The bus procedures are far more lapse in that the bus driver doesn't have a full view of who's coming up the street from behind. Passengers dont have a training course on how to safely board a bus yet I feel most of them know what's safe and what isn't.

It doesn't need a 3 day safety course. More like 10 seconds: just read the notice on each train door 'do not try to board when doors are closing'. There course over. Or better still your parents or guardian tells you when you're little and that's it, you know it for life.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest, what is the dispatch process for the DLR? Does dispatch involve platform staff doing a visual check? Or does the train just move off if interlock is gained, possibly contradicting the classic railway procedures?

Basically the same as a guarded train with driver release. The "guard" (Passenger Service Agent) closes up then presses a button for departure (or keys out, I forget which) - but they do have to take a positive action for the train to depart.

 

[Bromley boy]

What's the problem with re-releasing the doors? Happens quite a lot around Glasgow in my experience.

From memory one of the recent prosecutions involved someone being injured after doors were reopened.

Beyond that:

- it creates further delay;

- the person you’ve re released for will often then hold the doors open for others, or realise it’s the wrong train and amble away.

- they often don’t realise you’ve re released and remain standing on the platform despite BIL lights glowing into their faces!

 

[ComUtoR]

What's the problem with re-releasing the doors? Happens quite a lot around Glasgow in my experience.

It can lead to a wrong side door release.

 

[Bromley boy]

It can lead to a wrong side door release.

Especially in a 700...

 

[Bikeman78]

Basically the same as a guarded train with driver release. The "guard" (Passenger Service Agent) closes up then presses a button for departure (or keys out, I forget which) - but they do have to take a positive action for the train to depart.

Thanks, I couldn't remember the procedure. Does the local door stay open as with National Rail trains? Either way, it doesn't help if a drunk decides to lean on the train as it's pulling away. Same with most trains, once the guard has closed their local door, they cannot see what is going on outside.

 

[Bikeman78]

It can lead to a wrong side door release.

Can you elaborate? Why is that more likely compared with releasing the doors the first time?

 

[Bikeman78]

From memory one of the recent prosecutions involved someone being injured after doors were reopened.

Beyond that:

- it creates further delay;

- the person you’ve re released for will often then hold the doors open for others, or realise it’s the wrong train and amble away.

- they often don’t realise you’ve re released and remain standing on the platform despite BIL lights glowing into their faces!

Perhaps Glaswegians are smarter than Londoners! Thinking about it, it mainly happens on 314s where all doors open, there aren't any open/close buttons for passengers. I've also seen it happen occasionally on 318/320s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, I couldn't remember the procedure. Does the local door stay open as with National Rail trains?

I think so, yes.

Either way, it doesn't help if a drunk decides to lean on the train as it's pulling away. Same with most trains, once the guard has closed their local door, they cannot see what is going on outside.

Yes, this is something that was lost (except trains with droplights on the cab doors where dispatch is from the cab) when we moved away from the guard remaining at an open door until the train has wholly left the platform.

 

[ComUtoR]

Can you elaborate? Why is that more likely compared with releasing the doors the first time?

On pure statics alone : The more times you open the doors the more chance of a wrong side release.

Cab design : As Bromley Boy pointed out. 700s are at risk because of the cab design. With a single set of onboard cameras you are positioned looking at the cameras and when you release the doors the buttons are behind you. If you close then reopen, there is a high chance you are looking directly at the wrong set of door buttons.

Infrastructure design : DOO monitors on the opposite side of the platform creates the same issue as above. We have reduced the numbers of wrong side monitors and the wrong side releases dramatically reduced.

Human factors : To err is human. There are a multitude of human factors that lead to incidents and the railway is slowly addressing them as seen by the introduction of Non technical skills.

Hope that helps.

 

[pt_mad]

From memory one of the recent prosecutions involved someone being injured after doors were reopened.

Beyond that:

- it creates further delay;

- the person you’ve re released for will often then hold the doors open for others, or realise it’s the wrong train and amble away.

- they often don’t realise you’ve re released and remain standing on the platform despite BIL lights glowing into their faces!

Besides that, what happens when it's a platform dispatcher? Should they instruct the guard to re-release the doors for late passengers, which in the eyes of procedures isn't a reasonable reason. The guard may refuse to re release just for late passengers and if the dispatcher won't tip them and thinks they ought to re-release you'd end up with a bit of a quandary. Better if both follow procedure and instruct to stand clear. After all, they're late.

once the guard has closed their local door, they cannot see what is going on outside.

Absolutely, and it is better where there's either a drop light or a dispatcher on the platform, or both, for more reassurance. However, the case at Bishops Stortford from a few years ago seemed to demonstrate that as far as the law is concerned, if the person in charge of dispatch carries out a full and accurate train safety check, and everything is clear, if someone gets trapped after that and injury is unable to be prevented then the indication was that the person in charge of dispatch is not responsible for causing the injury. Which seems absolutely right imo.

Can you elaborate? Why is that more likely compared with releasing the doors the first time?

Because re releasing the doors for running panicing passengers may potentially be done hastily so as to avoid delay, and rushing potentially causes mistakes.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I've heard of plenty of Guards at an SDO platform who have correctly performed an SDO door release. Then as they are shutting the doors a passenger has dived at a door and the Guard has rereleased the doors, but inadvertently opened up all the doors as the situation has 'panicked' them.
It's the human condition, Drivers, Guards and Signallers perform many repetitive tasks throughout their working day but they are repetitive tasks with consequences. Once they are rushed it's very easy to make an error.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Besides that, what happens when it's a platform dispatcher? Should they instruct the guard to re-release the doors for late passengers, which in the eyes of procedures isn't a reasonable reason. The guard may refuse to re release just for late passengers and if the dispatcher won't tip them and thinks they ought to re-release you'd end up with a bit of a quandary. Better if both follow procedure and instruct to stand clear. After all, they're late.

There is a video knocking around somewhere of just such a standoff between an XC guard and a platform dispatcher, as you mention it. It got more than a little bit heated.

 

[tsr]

I think so, yes

Correct, unless of course the train is being driven by the PSA from the front, where dispatch involves basic platform equipment such as mirrors. These are used before and after doors close.

The DLR is perhaps unique in that the PSA can be required to do a full guard-style dispatch process or, if driving, use mirrors in a DOO-style manner. On heavy rail networks, guards use platform monitors* for some locations but don’t use mirrors to help see the train.

*Typically on suburban rail networks, and mainly SWR.

 

[bramling]

Only on a train forum would we have a suggestion that you might be prosecuted for boarding while the hustle alarms are on !!
To many 'ordinary' passengers these alarms simply mean 'Hurry along, we're about to leave' - nothing more. They only mean more to rail staff.

You’re right, and that’s why more needs to be done to change this incorrect perception. It’s against the byelaws on LU at least.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’re right, and that’s why more needs to be done to change this incorrect perception. It’s against the byelaws on LU at least.

I believe Merseyrail have made some inroads into this, when the doors are open a green LED surround will be visible, once the close button is pressed it changes to red.

 

[bb21]

Besides that, what happens when it's a platform dispatcher? Should they instruct the guard to re-release the doors for late passengers, which in the eyes of procedures isn't a reasonable reason. The guard may refuse to re release just for late passengers and if the dispatcher won't tip them and thinks they ought to re-release you'd end up with a bit of a quandary. Better if both follow procedure and instruct to stand clear. After all, they're late.

I would expect any dispatcher instructing guards to re-release doors having already correctly commenced dispatch process purely for late-running passengers to be reported and find himself in front of management needing to explain himself.

I would not expect guards to refuse such an instruction from the dispatcher normally, as they may well not be able to see the full train so have to assume something is not quite right for that instruction to be given.

 

[pt_mad]

I would expect any dispatcher instructing guards to re-release doors having already correctly commenced dispatch process purely for late-running passengers to be reported and find himself in front of management needing to explain himself.

That's exactly what I thought but the other poster was asking why doors can't just be re-released if someone runs down late after dispatch has commenced.

 

[jon0844]

I believe Merseyrail have made some inroads into this, when the doors are open a green LED surround will be visible, once the close button is pressed it changes to red.

I've seen this in Germany and cannot understand why the footwell lighting doesn't change to flashing red when the door close process is starting on any new train. I thought this when the new Victoria Line trains came in, and wondered why there is a pathetic little button (the size of your 'door out of use' or 'WC' sign) on one side of the door, inside, that flashes. What was the point of that?