Bushey Trap and Drag: Questions for Traincrew and Dispatchers.

[sbt]

I'm starting a new thread so as not to distract from any discussion on how to PREVENT a similar problem on this thread on the Trap and Drag incident at Bushey.

After reading that report four questions, primarily aimed at Traincrew, Dispatch Staff and maybe others in the rail industry, came into my mind. Except in question 3, where I feel my initial assumption is at least reasonable, I am deliberately not inserting my own naive views. Finally I am unlikely to respond after this evening as I away travelling for a week.

The intent of this thread is to get people thinking and possibly save lives or prevent injury.

1. If I, or part of my closing, bags etc. are trapped (in order to keep this focused on the matter at hand please ignore the reason this might occur, assume 'no fault' on the part of either staff or passenger) and the train has not yet moved off what should I do to alert dispatch staff, traincrew etc. that the train should not move?
   
   
2. If I, as a passenger on the platform spot the situation above, what should I do to prevent the train being allowed to move?
   
   
3. I am going to assume that if I am on the train then the alarm handle or similar is what I should be using. Am I correct?
   
   
4. Is it worthwhile, wise, etc. publicising, or developing a standard approach and then publicising, the answers to the three questions above?

 

[Intermodal]

1. If , or part of my closing, bags etc. are trapped (in order to keep this focused on the matter at hand please ignore the reason this might occur, assume 'no fault' on the part of either staff or passenger) and the train has not yet moved off what should I do to alert dispatch staff, traincrew etc. that the train should not move?

Shout loudly "DO NOT DISPATCH". Draw the attention of any nearby staff using voice or hand signals (two arms raised steadily or waving above your head). If all else fails verbally instruct passengers nearby and on board to press the alarm.

2. If I, as a passenger on the platform spot the situation above, what should I do to prevent the train being allowed to move?

Move to the drivers cab, or location of the guard as quickly as possible (whichever is closest - probably not sensible to chase after the drivers cab if you are to the rear of it) and alert them through any means possible. (Bang on the window, shout stop, etc.). If a member of platform dispatch staff is present, alert them immediately through voice or the aforementioned hand signal. It may be worth being very direct to discern that you are not just angry you have missed the door close.

3. I am going to assume that if I am on the train then the alarm handle or similar is what I should be using. Am I correct?

Yes.

4. Is it worthwhile, wise, etc. publicising, or developing a standard approach and then publicising, the answers to the three questions above?

Not for such a rare occurrence. Most passengers are already aware that they can stop the train using the passenger alarm, and common sense dictates the above actions.

Ultimately, the checks for this sort of instance should be before dispatch. If the train is dispatched with a person trapped, it's already too late. We should not be focusing on what to do after - but rather what to do to prevent it. In the same vein we focus more on preventing crime and illness than on how to deal with it after it happens.

 

[Bromley boy]

• If I, or part of my closing, bags etc. are trapped (in order to keep this focused on the matter at hand please ignore the reason this might occur, assume 'no fault' on the part of either staff or passenger) and the train has not yet moved off what should I do to alert dispatch staff, traincrew etc. that the train should not move?

• If I, as a passenger on the platform spot the situation above, what should I do to prevent the train being allowed to move?

• I am going to assume that if I am on the train then the alarm handle or similar is what I should be using. Am I correct?

Good questions.

1. Above all, take off/shed whatever item is trapped IMMEDIATELY - do not assume the train won’t move or that you’ve been spotted.

Failing that it goes without saying you should wave/shout, be as conspicuous as possible. Movement is important as you’re more likely to be spotted in shadowy monitors as you’ll be almost flush with the side of the train.

(At least one dispatch incident I can think of involved a strap from a backpack, which could easily have been shed).

2. Shout to the driver, guard or dispatcher, if possible. If DOO dispatch stand on the yellow line so that you’re visible in the monitors and raise both arms straight up which is an emergency stop signal.

3. If on the train immediately pull a passcom - the instruction to drivers is that if the passcom sounds when any part of the train is in a station you make an immediate emergency brake application.

 

[sbt]

It's 'Bushey', BTW.

Thanks - I'm doing this whilst packing for tomorrow (off to EMFCamp) so things are a bit jumbled.

And thanks for the responses so far.

 

[philthetube]

All new stock should be mandated to have sensitive edge technology similar to the stuff fitted on the undergrounds S stock, this could never happen and now that it is bedded in wors without causing issues.. other stock should also be investigated with a view to possibly retro fitting.

 

[Esker-pades]

All new stock should be mandated to have sensitive edge technology similar to the stuff fitted on the undergrounds S stock, this could never happen and now that it is bedded in wors without causing issues.. other stock should also be investigated with a view to possibly retro fitting.

This is a good idea, but I fear a similar situation to the introduction of the 2009 Stock and other instances where sensitive edge technology was too sensitive, and so caused huge delays for no real reason.

 

[whhistle]

All new stock should have sensitive edge technology similar to the undergrounds S stock, this could never happen and now that it is bedded in...

There was no "bedding in" - the system either works in one way or the other.
I believe the system was changed because it was too sensitive to begin with, which caused many delays (as @FelixtheCat said :P)



It seems this was another thought process of the passenger thinking the doors would release.
Why shouldn't they I hear you cry? Because clearly not all doors will.

Why does the passenger think it's acceptable to perform that action (of putting their hand in a closing door)?
There are warning signs all over the shop warning against this. Does the passenger also ignore signs that say "danger, 240,000 volts?". No. So why is it acceptable to ignore some warnings than others?
Perhaps it's the perceived danger - the passenger doesn't think it's dangerous. But why do they think that way? Why do they think the signs warning against this action are in place if it's not dangerous?

Why has the customer not accepted they have missed the train?
Too proud? Desperate to get home? Have an appointment? The root of that problem is (usually) time management. Someone got up late, or decided to stop off for a coffee. A few times traffic will be bad or you stopped to help someone in need but I would have thought that most people are just running late because they didn't manage their time properly.

I get with the Desiro units, there does seem to be a problem with the door seals forcing the sensor to redirect from it's path, but allowing people to think doors will release is not the answer to this problem occurring again.

 

[Intermodal]

Why does the passenger think it's acceptable to perform that action (of putting their hand in a closing door)?

I think a casual factor for this issue is that people are used to putting their hands in the only other types of automatic sliding doors they use - lifts and normal glass sliding doors at offices/retail outlets - and it is most acceptable there.

When I was much younger, I remember putting my hands in the doors of a Cl508 on Merseyrail to stop them closing so my friend could board. Of course now I realise the idiocy of this - but it seemed like a rational action to my 14 year old self.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I was much younger, I remember putting my hands in the doors of a Cl508 on Merseyrail to stop them closing so my friend could board. Of course now I realise the idiocy of this - but it seemed like a rational action to my 14 year old self.

Prior to the fitting of hustle alarms where it wastes too much time, the effect of that would usually be a (manual) reopening, too - some people may well have thought it was automatic.

It's also the case that doors on at least some LU trains close softly enough (and each door moves independently rather than both together on the mainline) that they are easy to hold open.

Now, try that on a Class 153 and expect to still have your fingers...

 

[alxndr]

Most passengers are already aware that they can stop the train using the passenger alarm, and common sense dictates the above actions.

I'm not so sure this is a safe assumption to make. Certainly everyone I've mentioned passenger alarms to has either looked at me blankly, or shrugged if I then go on to ask them where they'd find one. I wouldn't trust them to be able to locate and operate one in a panic.

 

[Intermodal]

Point taken, alxndr. I would argue that more needs to be done to publicise the general availability of a facility to stop the train/communicate with the driver, rather than list specific instances in which this should be done.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think a casual factor for this issue is that people are used to putting their hands in the only other types of automatic sliding doors they use - lifts and normal glass sliding doors at offices/retail outlets - and it is most acceptable there.

Would you do it for a car door ?

 

[Intermodal]

Would you do it for a car door ?

No, but I don't think a car door is a good comparison. A car door doesn't close itself and isn't similar to other types of self-closing doors that DO reopen when obstructed.

And incidentally, I wouldn't do it for a train door. I am playing devils advocate clearly. I'm trying to point out that what may be obvious to us as rail enthusiasts and staff is in no way obvious to the general public. The general public do not consider the possibility of being trapped and dragged. The general public think there is a magical system to ensure that it would never happen, or perhaps never even considered it as an possibility.

 

[ComUtoR]

Cars now have self closing and self opening doors. I wouldn't advise sticking your hand in to prevent it closing.

Door open and close many different ways. To assume door A works the same as Door B is a poor assumption.

 

[Intermodal]

Cars now have self closing and self opening doors. I wouldn't advise sticking your hand in to prevent it closing.

Door open and close many different ways. To assume door A works the same as Door B is a poor assumption.

I'm not arguing it's a good assumption. In fact, I agree with you - however I do believe that this is the most reference that Joe and Janet Public have, right or wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cars now have self closing and self opening doors. I wouldn't advise sticking your hand in to prevent it closing.

Door open and close many different ways. To assume door A works the same as Door B is a poor assumption.

It's also of note that when closing automatically to keep the heat/cool in, train doors *do* reopen when you put your hand in.

 

[OneOffDave]

Cars now have self closing and self opening doors. I wouldn't advise sticking your hand in to prevent it closing.

Door open and close many different ways. To assume door A works the same as Door B is a poor assumption.

My car has a self closing boot. If it encounters an obstacle while closing, it opens again. The electric windows do too. I'm not aware of a car that doesn't have those safety measures

 

[ComUtoR]

Tesla Model X

Knowing your car has this safety feature, would you deliberately stick your had in the way to stop it ? Would you do it for every single auto closing car window ?

There is also a question regarding 'closing' Sensitive edges are good but they will still close the door to the point where an obstacle can still be crushed but it will then reopen. What may or may not happen is that the door will detect the object and prevent it closing.

As the lift is a common and I would agree with Intermodal that people use a lift door as a baseline. When I was ickle, Lift doors would slam closed; people got hurt. Then they got those metal obstacle detectors where the door closes but compresses the detector and the door springs open; I've jammed my hand on it many times, often deliberate just for giggles. Now we have lifts with magic eyes that prevent the door closure. Train doors are the same. 2/3 of the traction I drive have magic eyes with the latest unit being much better at it. Even the magic eyes can be defeated :/

I have a very modern car. It will cut your finger off if you got it trapped in the window.

 

[OneOffDave]

Tesla Model X


I have a very modern car. It will cut your finger off if you got it trapped in the window.

If that's the case then it breaches the regulations and should not have been sold within the EU. Windows MUST autoreverse before they exert a pinch force exceeding 100N

 

[Intermodal]

Only RailUK could go from a trap and drag to the legislation on electric car windows.

 

[221129]

It's also of note that when closing automatically to keep the heat/cool in, train doors *do* reopen when you put your hand in.

Not all of them do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not all of them do.

But if some do, it's not an unreasonable subconscious view that all of them do always.

Safety system designs have to deal with erroneous assumptions as well as correct ones.

 

[ComUtoR]

If that's the case then it breaches the regulations and should not have been sold within the EU. Windows MUST autoreverse before they exert a pinch force exceeding 100N

Irrespective of the legislation you are missing the point.

*Even if there is a current EU law stating it must do X, Y or Z this still does not apply to every single autoclosing car door window and historical devices would be exempt. There is no way on this planet that I would stick my hand in a car door window to deliberately stop it closing. I don't know how safe it would be or if a safety system exists or if its working or not.

*I experimented with my motor. It takes a fair bit of pressure for me to stop the window from closing up. I really had to force it down. :/ I then stuck a glue stick in the window and it crushed it without a pause. Crushed a piece of chalk, reopened with a pencil. In all cases it attempts to close the window first. Clothing gets stuck 100% of the time (tried a belt, coat, towel and dressing gown)

But if some do, it's not an unreasonable subconscious view that all of them do always.

It is a potentially dangerous assumption on the part of the user.

Safety system designs have to deal with erroneous assumptions as well as correct ones.

Agreed. However; should we therefore retro fit every single train door in the country ? Design flaws exist and modern technology is often superior or simply exists where it didn't previously. Rightly or wrongly the railway will make a decision based on money and will only do what is the minimal requirement. Announcements, hustle alarms, posters and signs are there to mitigate against incidents not prevent them. Technology will not prevent something getting caught in the door or something smaller than the minimal requirement getting trapped.

We must educate people to use the door correctly. I think that finding excuses/reasons and attempting to justify why people make stupid decisions doesn't help in the long term. A change in attitudes and behavior will do much more to prevent an incident than a hustle alarm/sensitive edge/magic eye.

 

[OneOffDave]

Irrespective of the legislation you are missing the point.

*Even if there is a current EU law stating it must do X, Y or Z this still does not apply to every single autoclosing car door window and historical devices would be exempt. There is no way on this planet that I would stick my hand in a car door window to deliberately stop it closing. I don't know how safe it would be or if a safety system exists or if its working or not.

*I experimented with my motor. It takes a fair bit of pressure for me to stop the window from closing up. I really had to force it down. :/ I then stuck a glue stick in the window and it crushed it without a pause. Crushed a piece of chalk, reopened with a pencil. In all cases it attempts to close the window first. Clothing gets stuck 100% of the time (tried a belt, coat, towel and dressing gown)

It is a potentially dangerous assumption on the part of the user.



Agreed. However; should we therefore retro fit every single train door in the country ? Design flaws exist and modern technology is often superior or simply exists where it didn't previously. Rightly or wrongly the railway will make a decision based on money and will only do what is the minimal requirement. Announcements, hustle alarms, posters and signs are there to mitigate against incidents not prevent them. Technology will not prevent something getting caught in the door or something smaller than the minimal requirement getting trapped.

We must educate people to use the door correctly. I think that finding excuses/reasons and attempting to justify why people make stupid decisions doesn't help in the long term. A change in attitudes and behavior will do much more to prevent an incident than a hustle alarm/sensitive edge/magic eye.

You were the one who stated you had a new car that can sever fingers, if that is the case then it is a non-compliant design and it is unlawful for it to be sold in the EU.

From my reading of the reports, the train doors will comply with the regulations when tested in a particular manner but not when placed in real world scenarios. There are two sets of false assumptions that will then come into play here that will lead to accidents. The assumption by passengers that the edge detection will protect them from poor decisions and the assumption by trained train crew that if the doors are sufficiently closed that interlock can be achieved then nothing of any size can be stuck in the doors.

If we ignore human nature and the fact that when in unfamiliar environments people make decisions based on their experience then we will continue to design unsafe environments. To change traveller behavior will require a massive advertising campaign or requiring people to undergo some kind of training or familiarisation prior to being permitted to use the doors. It must also be remembered that the system must also deal with inadvertent entrapment, should someone fall for example while not intending to catch that train. Even highly trained people make basic errors and systems must take account of that. If you look at the instrumentation changes following the Kegworth air crash, these were based on minimising the risk of mistakes based on how pilots operate as human beings despite their hours of training. You appear to be referring to excuses and reasons as if the two terms are synonyms when they are very different

 

[krus_aragon]

In all cases it attempts to close the window first. Clothing gets stuck 100% of the time (tried a belt, coat, towel and dressing gown)

It sounds like your car windows would be particularly dangerous to Arthur Dent!

 

[whhistle]

I think a casual factor for this issue is that people are used to putting their hands in the only other types of automatic sliding doors they use - lifts and normal glass sliding doors at offices/retail outlets - and it is most acceptable there.

Good... perhaps that is it.
Maybe next time I will ask someone. Then get called rude for asking!

 

[Bikeman78]

Not all of them do.

The 165/166 don't even have a hustle alarm when they auto close after a few minutes. Unless that has been retro fitted.

 

[philthetube]

All new stock should be mandated to have sensitive edge technology similar to the stuff fitted on the undergrounds S stock, this could never happen and now that it is bedded in wors without causing issues.. other stock should also be investigated with a view to possibly retro fitting.

This is a good idea, but I fear a similar situation to the introduction of the 2009 Stock and other instances where sensitive edge technology was too sensitive, and so caused huge delays for no real reason.

Very true but this has now been sorted now and should not cause big problems installing elsewhere

 

[pt_mad]

This sensitive edge technology. If it's reliable and nothing can be trapped, does this mean that on services which operate this stock, gaining interlock DOES mean nothing trapped and can be relied upon to mean as much? Or does training still stipulate that gaining interlock doesn't indicate nothing is trapped?

 

[philthetube]

No Gaining interlock does not indicate nothing trapped, so cannot be relied on for that.

What it does do is to cause an immediate brake application if anything is being dragged in the train doors, basically done by a n electric circuit which runs inside the door rubbers being broken by the drag. Sorry a can't explain it better.