Buying a ticket with a 16-17 railcard when I am 18

[Alfie123]

Hi everyone,

I have created a very difficult situation for myself and would like some advice and some opinions on how bad this is. I turned 18 a few months ago but kept using my 16-17 railcard because they pretty much never checked it before when i did have one. I have realised this is a mistake as they finally asked and took down my details. The next mistake i have made is lying about my age which i now feel silly for as i am worried they will take me to court.

I travel between Hebden Bridge and Rochdale using Northern rail everyday and have now recieved my letter which is asking my parents for my side of the story.

I would appreciate anyones advice on really how bad this situation is and whether it would even be possible to settle this out of court? Thank you

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Welcome to the forum. This is potentially serious, as, even if you are able to negotiate a so-called "out of court" settlement, if you have purchased your inappropriately discounted tickets online, Northern will be readily able to check on this, and could then ask you to stump up the full undiscounted anytime single fare (currently = £6.80) for each and every occasion that you've bought and used the incorrect tickets, plus a three figure sum towards their investigation and administration expenses.

Over several months of travel, this will soon add up.

The alternative is to be taken to court, where there's every chance you'll be found guilty and end up with a conviction.

Can you now upload a copy / picture of the letter that's been received from Northern, albeit with any personal name and address and case reference number suitably obscured?

Others will then be able to advise how best to reply.

 

[Alfie123]

Thanks for the response, I have now attached the letter I recieved.

Hi all,

How do you think i should best respond to this letter, should i just admit to the whole thing? Or am i just admitting to things they have no idea about? Thanks

 

[MCSHF007]

Have the forum experts (not me!) missed this one?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

There are two issues here:

- Purchasing tickets with an invalid railcard
- Lying about your age

I assume that the letter has been sent to your parents because you told them you are under 18. You are going to have tell them the truth about what has happened. I suggest you write a short concise letter explaining what has happened, I would also recommend mentioning the following in the letter:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Northern are normally one of the more pragmatic train companies and are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and thy are within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court if they want to.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before and the train company will be able to search your online purchase history. At this point they are only asking you about the incident on 11th May so I would confine your reply to this specific incident only and not mention any other incidents.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £100 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[30907]

Have the forum experts (not me!) missed this one?

Thanks for the bump!

Hadders has said all, really.

You should also confirm that you are 18 and apologise for lying about your age, but TBH they aren't likely to be too bothered about that.

And make sure your parents are kept in the loop, especially as potentially you will be asked for a substantial sum in settlement.

 

[Alfie123]

Thank you so much for the response, I would appreciate any feedback on my first draft:

Dear Sir/Madam

I appreciate the opportunity to respond to this letter. I would firstly like to apologise as i bought a ticket using a 16-17 railcard, instead of the 16-25 railcard that i own, when asked about my railcard I panicked and lied about my age as i am 18. I have now realised that this is a very serious mistake and have learnt that this is not acceptable behavior and can assure you i will never repeat this again.

I am keep to settle this matter without the need for court action and am happy to pay the price of the outstanding fare and any administrative costs you have had in dealing with this issue.

Again I apologise for my actions and will take extra care to follow all ticketing rules from now on.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

You’ve misspelt “keen” as “keep”, and have put “i” instead of “I” a couple of times. I don’t mean to nitpick; it helps to give the right impression.

 

[Alfie123]

You’ve misspelt “keen” as “keep”, and have put “i” instead of “I” a couple of times. I don’t mean to nitpick; it helps to give the right impression.

ah yes thank you for that, would you say it’s good enough otherwise?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I am keep to settle this matter without the need for court action and am happy to pay the price of the outstanding fare and any administrative costs you have had in dealing with this issue.

Whilst we wouldn't suggest that the OP should self-incriminate themselves, weren't there multiple previous transgressions, which Northern are likely to know all about (if the OP's online ticket purchasing history has been looked at)? So, how should this be addressed?

 

[ChewChewTrain]

ah yes thank you for that, would you say it’s good enough otherwise?

It seems like a good starting point, notwithstanding what @Mcr Warrior mentions, but I strongly suggest you wait for wiser heads than me to give their views before you send it. I understand that you want to get it sent but it shouldn’t be long until more people reply.

One change I’d probably make is in the first paragraph: “bought a ticket using 16-17 railcard” sounds a bit like you had such a Railcard, when of course you unfortunately didn’t. I’d probably say something like “When buying my ticket, I applied the discount for a 16-17 Railcard, rather than for the 16-25 Railcard that I actually owned”.

(Also, please note the capital at the beginning of “Railcard”, and I would delete “again” at the end of your first paragraph as it’s redundant. It’s more than possible that whoever receives your letter won’t care a jot about capitals/spelling/grammar, but just in case…)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Whilst we wouldn't suggest that the OP should self-incriminate themselves, weren't there multiple previous transgressions, which Northern are likely to know all about (if the OP's online ticket purchasing history has been looked at)? So, how should this be addressed?

As there's no obligation to self-incriminate, I don't think that there's a problem with the proposed response. It doesn't talk about other occasions (which is fine because the railway hasn't asked about them and there's no obligation to self-incriminate) and it doesn't say that this is the only time that it's happened (which would be lying, which is wrong anyhow, and also could be a problem if the railway have spotted the other occasions as well).

So in my view, the response is more or less good to go, although (spelling check here) the OP should note that it should be 'behaviour' (British English) rather than 'behavior' (American English).

 

[Alfie123]

It seems like a good starting point, notwithstanding what @Mcr Warrior mentions, but I strongly suggest you wait for wiser heads than me to give their views before you send it. I understand that you want to get it sent but it shouldn’t be long until more people reply.

One change I’d probably make is in the first paragraph: “bought a ticket using 16-17 railcard” sounds a bit like you had such a Railcard, when of course you unfortunately didn’t. I’d probably say something like “When buying my ticket, I applied the discount for a 16-17 Railcard, rather than for the 16-25 Railcard that I actually owned”.

(Also, please note the capital at the beginning of “Railcard”, and I would delete “again” at the end of your first paragraph as it’s redundant. It’s more than possible that whoever receives your letter won’t care a jot about capitals/spelling/grammar, but just in case…)

Thankyou for the advice, yeah i’ll wait to send it off got plenty of time

 

[30907]

Thankyou for the advice, yeah i’ll wait to send it off got plenty of time

If you post the revised version, I'm sure we will spot any other issues

 

[Alfie123]

Thank you all for the advice I really appreciate the help, I have done a few tweaks like you have recommended and this is the result:

Dear Sir/Madam

I appreciate the opportunity to respond to this letter. I would firstly like to apologise as when buying my ticket, I applied the discount for a 16-17 railcard, rather than the 16-25 railcard that i own, when asked about my railcard I panicked and lied about my age as i am 18. I have now realised that this is a very serious mistake and have learnt that this is not acceptable behaviour and can assure you I will never repeat this again.

I am keen to settle this matter without the need for court action and am happy to pay the price of the outstanding fare and any administrative costs you have had in dealing with this issue.

I apologise for my actions and will take extra care to follow all ticketing rules from now on.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This is a point I should have thought of earlier:

I am keen to settle this matter without the need for court action and am happy to would be grateful if you would let me pay the price of the outstanding fare and any administrative costs you have had in dealing with this issue.

The thing is, when it comes to out of court settlements, you're not doing the railway a favour by offering to pay: they're doing you a favour by not taking you to court. So you need to ask them nicely if they will let you pay them.

You might also have your own way of wording it when you ask them nicely: what I have put is just a suggestion so you may be able to do better!

 

[jumble]

This is a point I should have thought of earlier:




The thing is, when it comes to out of court settlements, you're not doing the railway a favour by offering to pay: they're doing you a favour by not taking you to court. So you need to ask them nicely if they will let you pay them.

You might also have your own way of wording it when you ask them nicely: what I have put is just a suggestion so you may be able to do better!

I was under the impression that the railway would end up trousering more money if they settle rather than going to court so if correct the view they are doing the customer a favour is a bit questionable
Preparing court papers etc costs money and of course the railway may get absolutely nothing if the miscreant declines to pay a court fine

 

[WesternLancer]

I was under the impression that the railway would end up trousering more money if they settle rather than going to court so if correct the view they are doing the customer a favour is a bit questionable
Preparing court papers etc costs money and of course the railway may get absolutely nothing if the miscreant declines to pay a court fine

probably strictly speaking correct, but the diplomatic approach would not be to presume you can offer them such a way forward when you are not in a strong position to negotiate

Edit: (apols @Fawkes Cat - wrongly attributed this reply to you when I should have replied to @jumble but pressed the wrong button)

 

[Alfie123]

Hi everyone, thanks the replies i will change that and send it today, quick question, should it be from me or my parents as the letter was sent to them? thanks

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi everyone, thanks the replies i will change that and send it today, quick question, should it be from me or my parents as the letter was sent to them? thanks

As you are over 18, from you. The text that you’re planning to go with explains how old you actually are.