Buying ticket on train (where opportunity exists to buy before boarding)

[a_c_skinner]

Forgive me if this is answered elsewhere, stupid or anything else.

I have a recollection that for a long time one could buy tickets on train even if you had boarded at a manned station BUT the stricture was that you could only buy full priced - any time - tickets, not the reduced price, such as off peak.

Reading threads on here that seems no longer the case. I've obviously missed some key fact here.

I should say I am paranoid about having the right ticket for any travel. I'd prefer to doorstep the guard on the platform at unmanned stations!

Andrew

 

[dquebec]

If there is a ticket office or self service machine, you MUST buy before you board.

The consequences (depending on area) could be:

1) Day in court
2) Penalty Fare
3) Full fare ticket being sold.

 

[Fare-Cop]

If there is a ticket office or self service machine, you MUST buy before you board.

Correct of course

NATIONAL RAILWAY BYELAWS (2005)

Made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 by the Strategic Rail Authority (the “Authority”) and confirmed under Schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000 by the Secretary of State for Transport on 22 June 2005 for regulating the use and working of, and travel on or by means of, railway assets, the maintenance of order on railway assets and the conduct of all persons while on railway assets (the “Byelaws”).

http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legi...aysbyelaws.pdf

TRAVEL AND FARES

18. Ticketless travel in Non-Compulsory Ticket Areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I am sure you are right, but was my recollection about anytime vs off peak ever correct or am I simply imagining it? It was my confabulation or change of law I was interested in.

Andrew

 

[dquebec]

I am sure you are right, but was my recollection about anytime vs off peak ever correct or am I simply imagining it?

Andrew

That is just one of the several options available to the railway.

If a conductor is dealing with the matter, it is likely he will sell the most expensive single fare.

If an Inspector is dealing with the matter, it will be a day in court or Penalty Fare.

The customer obviously can't guarantee who they'll come up against - so they take a big risk if they don't buy beforehand.

 

[najaB]

I am sure you are right, but was my recollection about anytime vs off peak ever correct or am I simply imagining it? It was my confabulation or change of law I was interested in.

It's always been the law that you must buy before boarding if possible. However, by convention, certain lines were treated as 'pay trains' where there was no penalty for buying on board. While very convenient, this arrangement had no specific basis in either law or regulation.

 

[a_c_skinner]

My recollection was that provided one was prepared to pay for a full price ticket this was OK is obviously wrong now (and I understand that), I was wondering if this was ever correct and has changed or I have simply drunk too much alcohol in middle life and am confabulating.

I am not asking about now, but asking if this was ever the case.

Incidentally the previous Northern franchise often failed to sell tickets on train between Arnside and Lancaster. Where does that leave me? I've not tried that trip since 1st April.

Edit: cross posted.

 

[exile]

In the old Northern franchise, tickets were sold on the train. The Northern network had a lot of unstaffed and part time staffed stations so I suspect it was too difficult to enforce a "buy before you board" policy. Whether the new franchise works the same way I don't know. TPE certainly insisted on "buy before you board".

 

[mbreckers]

That is just one of the several options available to the railway.

If a conductor is dealing with the matter, it is likely he will sell the most expensive single fare.

If an Inspector is dealing with the matter, it will be a day in court or Penalty Fare.

The customer obviously can't guarantee who they'll come up against - so they take a big risk if they don't buy beforehand.

And then you have ScotRail, who, due to Scots Law, rarely (have they ever, does anyone know) prosecute.

 

[najaB]

And then you have ScotRail, who, due to Scots Law, rarely (have they ever, does anyone know) prosecute.

Not that I'm aware of.

 

[Agent_c]

And then you have ScotRail, who, due to Scots Law, rarely (have they ever, does anyone know) prosecute.

Private prosecutions in Scotland are practically impossible, and convincing a procurator Fiscal (public prosecutor) to take it on perhaps just as hard.

 

[yorkie]

Forgive me if this is answered elsewhere, stupid or anything else.

I have a recollection that for a long time one could buy tickets on train even if you had boarded at a manned station BUT the stricture was that you could only buy full priced - any time - tickets, not the reduced price, such as off peak.

Reading threads on here that seems no longer the case. I've obviously missed some key fact here.

I should say I am paranoid about having the right ticket for any travel. I'd prefer to doorstep the guard on the platform at unmanned stations!

Andrew

What journey are you looking at?

It depends on the train company.

Hull Trains and Grand Central welcome passengers on board and are more than happy to sell the full range of fares on board.

Some train companies do advertise full fare tickets on board only.

Some make it clear that you must buy before boarding or you will get a Penalty Fare.

The Conditions state that a full fare will be charged on board, however in practice these can be ignored and they can threaten you with prosecution or go the other way and offer the full range.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the old Northern franchise, tickets were sold on the train. The Northern network had a lot of unstaffed and part time staffed stations so I suspect it was too difficult to enforce a "buy before you board" policy. .

It depends on the staff. Some staff enforce the policy by only selling full fare tickets on board, some will sell the full range.

To be fair, it's not easy for them to ascertain whether a passenger had an opportunity to pay at somewhere like Garforth for example (I've used that station many times and the ticket office is rarely open; the signs state you can buy on board if it's closed. There is a solitary hidden TVM on one of the platforms that isn't advertised at the station and may not accept all payment methods) so attempting to enforce it at stations like that would be difficult at best.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

And then you have ScotRail, who, due to Scots Law, rarely (have they ever, does anyone know) prosecute.

Yes. I responded to this question in detail a few weeks ago, because there is a popular misunderstanding about private prosecutions in Scotland (they are heard, there have been a few even in the recent past, though not by the railway Companies.):

It was this post in the thread: Should Railway Offences get a Criminal Record?

 

[nitten_travell]

If there is a ticket office or self service machine, you MUST buy before you board.
.

Does it make a difference if the ticket machine only accepts credit cards and you're armed only with cash?

My local station (Newtongrange) has a card-only machine which does not like my Amex card. I'm not sure if the problem is with my card, or the machine (it makes picking up pre-booked tickets a bit of a bugger). I've never had a problem paying in cash on board though. I used to live near Wallyford station and I'm certain that the machine there had a notice with words to the effect of "if you have cash please buy a ticket on board". Newtongrange station just has the "buy before you board" notices.

I know that ScotRail approach this differently from other companies and are generally quite lenient, if not officially. However, I have wondered for a while what would happen elsewhere if boarding at an unstaffed station where the machine only accepted payment cards and you only had cash on you. Ticket on board or penalty fare?

 

[najaB]

Does it make a difference if the ticket machine only accepts credit cards and you're armed only with cash?

This has been discussed extensively in the past, as usual there wasn't a consensus but the majority of posters agreed that a card-only TVM isn't an opportunity to purchase if you intend to pay with cash.

Where it gets a little woolly is when you have cash but intend to pay with a card that turns out to be online-only...

 

[yorkie]

Does it make a difference if the ticket machine only accepts credit cards and you're armed only with cash?

If you're paying with cash, and there is no facility to pay in cash at the origin station, then you can of course board the train and pay on the train or at the destination, as appropriate.

My local station (Newtongrange) has a card-only machine which does not like my Amex card. I'm not sure if the problem is with my card, or the machine (it makes picking up pre-booked tickets a bit of a bugger). I've never had a problem paying in cash on board though. I used to live near Wallyford station and I'm certain that the machine there had a notice with words to the effect of "if you have cash please buy a ticket on board". Newtongrange station just has the "buy before you board" notices.

I know that ScotRail approach this differently from other companies and are generally quite lenient, if not officially. However, I have wondered for a while what would happen elsewhere if boarding at an unstaffed station where the machine only accepted payment cards and you only had cash on you. Ticket on board or penalty fare?

Then you're entitled to the full range on board, of course.

 

[furlong]

Indeed, if you go back to the time before the byelaw reorganisation, you can see there used to be no financial penalty for what later became byelaw 18.

Ticket requirements
3.
(2) No person other than an authorised person shall enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein.

Penalties
2.
(2) Any person offending against any other of these Byelaws, except Byelaws 3 and 3A, shall be liable for every such offence to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds.
(3) Any person offending against any of the following Byelaws numbered 3..., and failing to desist or quit, or failing to comply with the Byelaw, as the case may be, when requested so to do by an authorised person may be removed from the railway or any part thereof or any lift or vehicle by an authorised person without prejudice where any penalty is prescribed as aforesaid for the contravention of any such Byelaw to such penalty.

 

[Starmill]

Guards on my line have been known to explicitly advertise that they will always make full-priced tickets available onboard - including when there is a ticket office open. I'll leave others to ponder the legal and ethical implications!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's always been the law that you must buy before boarding if possible. However, by convention, certain lines were treated as 'pay trains' where there was no penalty for buying on board. While very convenient, this arrangement had no specific basis in either law or regulation.

There is and was, because a sign saying to pay on board is authority to do so.

 

[najaB]

There is and was, because a sign saying to pay on board is authority to do so.

That is true, but I'm not confident enough to say that such signs universally existed.