Do they even have the infrastructure, let alone the stock? It's 18tph 0700 - 0759 and 20tph 0800 - 0859. This being an increase from 8tph off-peak along a 2 track railway with a 4 track terminus. Surely they realistically require something like an extra pair of tracks to accommodate that many trains' worth of passengers.
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C2C New timetable
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Do they even have the infrastructure, let alone the stock? It's 18tph 0700 - 0759 and 20tph 0800 - 0859. This being an increase from 8tph off-peak along a 2 track railway with a 4 track terminus. Surely they realistically require something like an extra pair of tracks to accommodate that many trains' worth of passengers.
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chris11256
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I'm told that the current signalling system can't handle any more trains in the 08:00-08:59 window. There's currently a train every three minutes between Barking & Fenchurch Street, again I'm told this is as close together as the signalling system allows.
Anyone who knows more about signalling please correct me.
Short of knocking down a building, there's no space for a new platform at Fenchurch Street. No room for track either, as between West Ham - Fenchurch Street a lot of the track is on elevated bridges(whatever the correct term is) above built up areas.
There's the option of Liverpool Street, but there's no room in peak there either.
Any new stock wouldn't add additional services. It would allow more 8/12 carriage peak services by shifting stock around. Desperately need more 12 carriage peak services. Although there's currently not the stock, plus it wouldn't happen until 12 carriage services go DOO later this year.
Anyone who knows more about signalling please correct me.
Short of knocking down a building, there's no space for a new platform at Fenchurch Street. No room for track either, as between West Ham - Fenchurch Street a lot of the track is on elevated bridges(whatever the correct term is) above built up areas.
There's the option of Liverpool Street, but there's no room in peak there either.
Any new stock wouldn't add additional services. It would allow more 8/12 carriage peak services by shifting stock around. Desperately need more 12 carriage peak services. Although there's currently not the stock, plus it wouldn't happen until 12 carriage services go DOO later this year.
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Class 170101
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Unless headway has changed recently its two minutes between Barking and Fenchurch Street.
Forget Liverpool Street in the peaks, when c2c do very occasionally go there, under Control arrangements, TfL / AGA services have to be cancelled to accommodate a limited c2c service.
If there are any four car services remianing these could be lengthened to eight cars without the 12 car DOO issue being a problem. In any event its still not confirmed if c2c are getting any trains in the interim - with the Class 360 option having fallen through.
Forget Liverpool Street in the peaks, when c2c do very occasionally go there, under Control arrangements, TfL / AGA services have to be cancelled to accommodate a limited c2c service.
If there are any four car services remianing these could be lengthened to eight cars without the 12 car DOO issue being a problem. In any event its still not confirmed if c2c are getting any trains in the interim - with the Class 360 option having fallen through.
ctom_s
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Could they potentially run more services into Liverpool Street when platforms are freed up by crossrail?
Have to wait til 2019 though...
Have to wait til 2019 though...
Class 170101
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No. Still no capacity between Forest Gate Jn and Stratford
chris11256
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We've been told at Passenger Panel that there 'might' be some new stock for December. Although nothing definite. I've been hearing rumours about 387's, but i'm not taking them seriously.
I think any plans for capacity need to be strengthening existing services, rather than running new services. For example my usual train from(16:16 from Fenchurch Street) is a 4 carriage train. it's full by the time it leaves and stupidly busy come Limehouse.
The weekend Liverpool street services are here to stay. c2c went to great lengths to secure to the paths. TFL kicked up a complete stink about it, until c2c went to the ORR.
Although if i'm honest they are more of a pain(for me personally).
I think any plans for capacity need to be strengthening existing services, rather than running new services. For example my usual train from(16:16 from Fenchurch Street) is a 4 carriage train. it's full by the time it leaves and stupidly busy come Limehouse.
The weekend Liverpool street services are here to stay. c2c went to great lengths to secure to the paths. TFL kicked up a complete stink about it, until c2c went to the ORR.
Although if i'm honest they are more of a pain(for me personally).
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Orange Box
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The latest show of quite how far down the pan c2c is getting sees that on Monday they are bussing Barking-Grays via Rainham despite there being no engineering work to release resources for additional mainline services.
No possession in place and all freight still shown as running normal route, despite all the promises about not treating the loop as second class... Never happened under the previous franchise.
No possession in place and all freight still shown as running normal route, despite all the promises about not treating the loop as second class... Never happened under the previous franchise.
Wivenswold
Established Member
Pie in the sky possibly but how many of C2C's platforms could be extended to accommodate even longer trains? I assume a new depot would be needed, I can't see 16 car formations fitting in East Ham Depot but there must be space for a new facility somewhere along the Tilbury loop.
87015
Established Member
Problem is too many trains are 4 car and only a handful of 12s, it really doesn't need anything of the sort yet just stock to back up the new timetable. It doesn't work with 74 357s, simple.
The Anglia Route Study bascially has as the only intervention on the LTS "more carriages, run everything as 12 car in the peak"
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Your hyperlink appears to be to an instagram post of a shower and not the RUS.
Here's the correct link - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/greater%20anglia/great%20anglia%20rus.pdf
Class 170101
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a reflection on Network Rail? :Pswt_passenger
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The above links are to the 2007 Route Utilisation Study though.
Much more current info will be in the March 2016 Anglia Route Study here: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/long-term-planning-process/anglia-route-study/?cd=5
Much more current info will be in the March 2016 Anglia Route Study here: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/long-term-planning-process/anglia-route-study/?cd=5
Thank you, I didn't realise there was a more recent RUS.
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Looks like NR buried it as it was published on Maundy Thursday.
swt_passenger
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It wasn't that easy to find, but I'd remembered there'd been a draft out a few months back.
Could the following offer a solution ?
Off-Peak - using the existing class 357 stock (in 4, 8 or 12 car formation)
Peak - using 12 car class 357, supplemented by 12 car Class 315 released when Crossrail services commence.
The Class 315 would probably be available at lower lease rates and could therefore spend most of the day in sidings and just be drafted into service during the morning and evening peak. It makes little sense to order brand new units which are only going to be used twice a day. And most passengers would not notice the difference assuming the units are given a cosmetic refresh prior to entry into service.
Off-Peak - using the existing class 357 stock (in 4, 8 or 12 car formation)
Peak - using 12 car class 357, supplemented by 12 car Class 315 released when Crossrail services commence.
The Class 315 would probably be available at lower lease rates and could therefore spend most of the day in sidings and just be drafted into service during the morning and evening peak. It makes little sense to order brand new units which are only going to be used twice a day. And most passengers would not notice the difference assuming the units are given a cosmetic refresh prior to entry into service.
chris11256
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Aren't 315s almost life expired? Plus would they struggle to meet the timings?
As the new franchise pays a nice premium c2c essentially gets their own choice in rolling stock. Hence new trains in 2019 rather than old units.
The idea in the short term is to try and lease 2 to 3 units. Which can be used to strengthen peak services until the new stock arrives in 2019.
I'm waiting for the May timetable changes, I wonder how many of the Barking and West Ham stops will be cut now the government has dropped requirement.
As the new franchise pays a nice premium c2c essentially gets their own choice in rolling stock. Hence new trains in 2019 rather than old units.
The idea in the short term is to try and lease 2 to 3 units. Which can be used to strengthen peak services until the new stock arrives in 2019.
I'm waiting for the May timetable changes, I wonder how many of the Barking and West Ham stops will be cut now the government has dropped requirement.
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http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/14423627.display/
TRAIN operator c2c has brought in new trains three years early after a customer backlash due to the new timetable.
There will also be changes to the timetable after continued protests from passengers.
Today, the company announced a new deal that will deliver 24 brand-new additional carriages in 2016 three years earlier than previously planned.
c2c and the Department for Transport have reached agreement for the 24 new carriages, being built by Bombardier in Derby, to operate on the c2c route for the next three years.
The new carriages will start entering passenger service from October, subject to the final signing of contracts, with all the new trains delivered by the end of the year.
Since the new timetable came in last December, passengers complained increased stops in east London have meant longer journey times for those travelling from south Essex, as well as leading to the overcrowding especially in the evening peak as those getting off in east London pack onto trains at Fenchurch Street.
Commuters also railed against four-carriage services during peak times c2c say this is to provide more choice and the conversion of carriages into Metro services with a reduction in the number of seats but increase in standing capacity.
Today's announcement, to lease the new trains until 2019, will increase the total size of c2cs fleet to 320 carriages.
The company says it will mean an extra 13,000 seats at peak times every week.
c2c says the new carriages will address the unprecedented growth inrail passengers in the past six months, with around 8 per cent more passengers now travelling into London during the morning peak.
From 2019, c2c has existing plans to introduce 68 new carriages to the route. The formal procurement process for the first tranche of these new trains started earlier this month, with the manufacturer expected to be appointed in the summer.
From Sunday, May 15, there will also be changes to the timetable.
This includes:
Some evening services combined, to provide longer trains and reduce the number of four-carriage services at peak times
Changes to the stopping pattern for a number of services, including:
- Additional services to West Horndon in the morning peak
- Additional services to Upminster in the evening peak
- Additional free seats at Basildon and Laindon on the most crowded service of the day, which will now no longer stop at Benfleet or Barking
- Limited other peak services no longer stopping at Barking.
The company says while this is a result of overcrowding, c2c is still providing Barking passengers with a significant increase in the total number of peak services over the past six months
These timetable changes will be reviewed again in December once the additional carriages are in service.
c2c Managing Director Julian Drury said: Extra carriages are absolutely vital for c2c to meet the surge in demand from passengers who want to travel. This agreement is hugely important, as we will now get new carriages on c2c within six months when they normally take years to be delivered.
"Combined with the other changes we are making in both the short and long-term, this is the most significant increase in capacity for c2c passengers for over a decade.
Thank you to all our passengers for bearing with us while we have been working so hard on getting these new trains. We have heard loud and clear that a number of peak-time services are very busy, and now we will be able to address the issues that our passengers have raised.
Rail Minister Claire Perry MP said: I have asked c2c to speed up the process of getting new trains for their customers and it is great to see this happening. This confirms c2cs well-deserved reputation for customer care.
These extra carriages will make a huge difference, allowing passengers to benefit from longer trains, more seats and better journeys along the busy c2c routes.
Jackie Doyle-Price, MP for Thurrock, said: I am delighted that c2c have been able to secure more carriages and I am grateful to the Government for its support. I am pleased that c2c have been able to refine the timetable so that there are fewer stops at Barking. This will alleviate the congestion caused by one-stop passengers. I will maintain my dialogue with c2c and with Government to make sure that c2c delivers the best service it is able.
James Duddridge, MP for Rochford and Southend East, said: I know that passengers will be delighted to learn that c2c have acquired additional carriages that will provide extra capacity on the trains. c2c have made a number of changes to improve the new timetable and this latest announcement is testament to their approach to deal with the increased passenger numbers and to improve the journey. I look forward to seeing these carriages in operation along the route and I am positive c2c will make further changes should they be required to address the challenges that have been faced since December.
Stephen Metcalfe, MP for South Basildon and East Thurrock, said: For months John Baron MP and I have been working with both c2c and the DfT to help find a way forward and I hope these changes will deliver the kind of change our constituents have been asking for.
I look forward to continuing to work with all parties to build on this very positive news.
John Baron, MP for Basildon and Billericay, said: I welcome the announcement by c2c that new carriages have been obtained and trust this and the timetable changes will relieve overcrowding for commuters. Stephen Metcalfe and I have been working with both c2c and the Department for Transport to bring these changes about and I will be monitoring progress carefully.
Earlier this year c2c provided compensation to season ticket holders as a cash apology for the disruption they had faced following changes made to timetable in January.
TRAIN operator c2c has brought in new trains three years early after a customer backlash due to the new timetable.
There will also be changes to the timetable after continued protests from passengers.
Today, the company announced a new deal that will deliver 24 brand-new additional carriages in 2016 three years earlier than previously planned.
c2c and the Department for Transport have reached agreement for the 24 new carriages, being built by Bombardier in Derby, to operate on the c2c route for the next three years.
The new carriages will start entering passenger service from October, subject to the final signing of contracts, with all the new trains delivered by the end of the year.
Since the new timetable came in last December, passengers complained increased stops in east London have meant longer journey times for those travelling from south Essex, as well as leading to the overcrowding especially in the evening peak as those getting off in east London pack onto trains at Fenchurch Street.
Commuters also railed against four-carriage services during peak times c2c say this is to provide more choice and the conversion of carriages into Metro services with a reduction in the number of seats but increase in standing capacity.
Today's announcement, to lease the new trains until 2019, will increase the total size of c2cs fleet to 320 carriages.
The company says it will mean an extra 13,000 seats at peak times every week.
c2c says the new carriages will address the unprecedented growth inrail passengers in the past six months, with around 8 per cent more passengers now travelling into London during the morning peak.
From 2019, c2c has existing plans to introduce 68 new carriages to the route. The formal procurement process for the first tranche of these new trains started earlier this month, with the manufacturer expected to be appointed in the summer.
From Sunday, May 15, there will also be changes to the timetable.
This includes:
Some evening services combined, to provide longer trains and reduce the number of four-carriage services at peak times
Changes to the stopping pattern for a number of services, including:
- Additional services to West Horndon in the morning peak
- Additional services to Upminster in the evening peak
- Additional free seats at Basildon and Laindon on the most crowded service of the day, which will now no longer stop at Benfleet or Barking
- Limited other peak services no longer stopping at Barking.
The company says while this is a result of overcrowding, c2c is still providing Barking passengers with a significant increase in the total number of peak services over the past six months
These timetable changes will be reviewed again in December once the additional carriages are in service.
c2c Managing Director Julian Drury said: Extra carriages are absolutely vital for c2c to meet the surge in demand from passengers who want to travel. This agreement is hugely important, as we will now get new carriages on c2c within six months when they normally take years to be delivered.
"Combined with the other changes we are making in both the short and long-term, this is the most significant increase in capacity for c2c passengers for over a decade.
Thank you to all our passengers for bearing with us while we have been working so hard on getting these new trains. We have heard loud and clear that a number of peak-time services are very busy, and now we will be able to address the issues that our passengers have raised.
Rail Minister Claire Perry MP said: I have asked c2c to speed up the process of getting new trains for their customers and it is great to see this happening. This confirms c2cs well-deserved reputation for customer care.
These extra carriages will make a huge difference, allowing passengers to benefit from longer trains, more seats and better journeys along the busy c2c routes.
Jackie Doyle-Price, MP for Thurrock, said: I am delighted that c2c have been able to secure more carriages and I am grateful to the Government for its support. I am pleased that c2c have been able to refine the timetable so that there are fewer stops at Barking. This will alleviate the congestion caused by one-stop passengers. I will maintain my dialogue with c2c and with Government to make sure that c2c delivers the best service it is able.
James Duddridge, MP for Rochford and Southend East, said: I know that passengers will be delighted to learn that c2c have acquired additional carriages that will provide extra capacity on the trains. c2c have made a number of changes to improve the new timetable and this latest announcement is testament to their approach to deal with the increased passenger numbers and to improve the journey. I look forward to seeing these carriages in operation along the route and I am positive c2c will make further changes should they be required to address the challenges that have been faced since December.
Stephen Metcalfe, MP for South Basildon and East Thurrock, said: For months John Baron MP and I have been working with both c2c and the DfT to help find a way forward and I hope these changes will deliver the kind of change our constituents have been asking for.
I look forward to continuing to work with all parties to build on this very positive news.
John Baron, MP for Basildon and Billericay, said: I welcome the announcement by c2c that new carriages have been obtained and trust this and the timetable changes will relieve overcrowding for commuters. Stephen Metcalfe and I have been working with both c2c and the Department for Transport to bring these changes about and I will be monitoring progress carefully.
Earlier this year c2c provided compensation to season ticket holders as a cash apology for the disruption they had faced following changes made to timetable in January.
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