CAF Civity for TfW design issues and solutions

[craigybagel]

Hopefully with more available units they can at least plan something additional to Barmouth at least to ease the peak summer pressure.

The game changer is going to be the lack of a need to send ERTMS fitted units all the way to West Wales as there is now with the 158s - and potentially not to Holyhead either depending on how exactly the new timetable works. It should free up enough units to give you extra capacity on the Cambrianv Coast, at least for the few services that actually need it.

 

[tomuk]

The game changer is going to be the lack of a need to send ERTMS fitted units all the way to West Wales as there is now with the 158s - and potentially not to Holyhead either depending on how exactly the new timetable works. It should free up enough units to give you extra capacity on the Cambrianv Coast, at least for the few services that actually need it.

Any uplift in service east of Shrewsbury?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Perhaps the thread should be split, with this one used for updates only (and renamed accordingly) and a speculative one regarding what is wrong with them? Too complex I guess to move postings around but going forward that would make sense.

It has already been done, I was going to move one of my recent posts earlier but the 'speculative' topic was no longer open for replies so I was unable to.

 

[craigybagel]

Any uplift in service east of Shrewsbury?

Definitely not in terms of frequency. Services may be longer than today but we won't know for definite until TfW reveal more of their plans for the timetable.

 

[TravelDream]

Definitely not in terms of frequency. Services may be longer than today but we won't know for definite until TfW reveal more of their plans for the timetable.

Having spoken to the local MS not that long ago, she assured me that she had been assured that TFW's plan was that Aberystwyth to Birmingham would be served hourly throughout the day before the next Senedd election (due May 2026 at the moment).
On the Pwllheli section, the reduction in capacity is tiny so I am not too sure why people are going on and on about it. Machynlleth is very well connected by bus to the rural communities to the north and hopefully we'll see further ticket integration in the not too distant future as TFW has promised.

 

[MarkWiles]

Not wishing to perpetuate thread drift, but I don't quite understand what is the issue with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 the carriage length on the new 197s. From 1985 right up until ERTMS Class 150s were common on the line, including those which had been reseated with 3+2 airline seating for Centro services which as a one time regular user around the Midlands were a nightmare to use. Central even on occasions sent 170s up the line, lovely units with doors at 1/3 and 2/3, so it's not as if we've had the "luxury" of 158s for ever. Last time I went on a 158 from my local station (Fairbourne) to Birmingham the legroom was appalling and as bad as the 150s.

For long sections of the Cambrian, including here in Fairbourne, the train is the only all day and evening public transport available (my local buses finish at 2pm from Tywyn and 4pm from Dolgellau) and the train is actually very well used especially when TfW allow the use of Twirly bus passes on the services off peak. I've seen the length of time it takes to disgorge those alighting at Barmouth and Fairbourne even in the winter, and it is painfully slow, and the small vestibules are not very good for standing in for the six or seven minute trot across the Traphont. These new units will be welcomed by those who regularly use the trains especially those with mobility problems, of which there are many locally.

 

[craigybagel]

Having spoken to the local MS not that long ago, she assured me that she had been assured that TFW's plan was that Aberystwyth to Birmingham would be served hourly throughout the day before the next Senedd election (due May 2026 at the moment).
On the Pwllheli section, the reduction in capacity is tiny so I am not too sure why people are going on and on about it. Machynlleth is very well connected by bus to the rural communities to the north and hopefully we'll see further ticket integration in the not too distant future as TFW has promised.

Aberystwyth is definitely getting an hourly service, that much is known. What isn't known is what impact this will have on the Birmingham - Holyhead service, and therefore on how long formations are East of Shrewsbury.

Not wishing to perpetuate thread drift, but I don't quite understand what is the issue with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 the carriage length on the new 197s. From 1985 right up until ERTMS Class 150s were common on the line, including those which had been reseated with 3+2 airline seating for Centro services which as a one time regular user around the Midlands were a nightmare to use. Central even on occasions sent 170s up the line, lovely units with doors at 1/3 and 2/3, so it's not as if we've had the "luxury" of 158s for ever. Last time I went on a 158 from my local station (Fairbourne) to Birmingham the legroom was appalling and as bad as the 150s.

For long sections of the Cambrian, including here in Fairbourne, the train is the only all day and evening public transport available (my local buses finish at 2pm from Tywyn and 4pm from Dolgellau) and the train is actually very well used especially when TfW allow the use of Twirly bus passes on the services off peak. I've seen the length of time it takes to disgorge those alighting at Barmouth and Fairbourne even in the winter, and it is painfully slow, and the small vestibules are not very good for standing in for the six or seven minute trot across the Traphont. These new units will be welcomed by those who regularly use the trains especially those with mobility problems, of which there are many locally.

Very true. And thankfully I think most people will agree with you.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks Rhydgaled for uploading some clear images of the internal layout. It surely is not good enough to have pillars obstructing the view from so many seats. I really do wonder if enough care has been taken in trying to get the best internal layout?

Looking at car DMS 1st Class - would it not be better if the the 8 seat section nearest the driver replicated the 8 seat section further away?
Looking at the middle car (MSL) - who would want to sit near the smelly toilet with people coming and going? Can’t the bicycle storage area be placed by the toilet? (At least the Hitachi 800’s have the toilet beyond a vestibule and away from the passenger compartment).

In all the coaches, I really do wonder if some seats would be better flipped around regarding getting a view and if the arrangement of the table seating could be changed to give max benefit to window placement? I also wonder if more but narrower baggage racks might have been deployed by pillars in order to getting better seat to window alignment?

The seat height from the floor also affects legroom for tall passengers. If the height is low - they must stretch their legs forward. (One of the ‘faults’ on the Hitachi 800’s is that a bracket holding the seat obstructs stretching the right foot forward. This could easily have been remedied by a slightly different design).

I take it that the toilet has no touch handles and is beam operated - including soap, water and drier?

Mention has been made that the public don’t care about getting a good view. This might well be so with regulars but some people are making once in a lifetime journeys and really wish to see the land through which they are travelling. I remember making a journey on The Marches about 3 years ago and a couple of Americans were looking out at the lush countryside and tracking their progress north on a large map. Unfortunately, they were stuck in backward facing seats - presumably due to advance booking. Let us hope that with 5 car trains, we can just show up and get the seat of choice. (Just hope those who want to work on computers sit by the pillars on the shady side of the trains).

It is a pity that TfW don’t contact the regulars on this forum and give us a test ride so that we can make comments - good or bad - and perhaps offer suggestions to some tweaks that could be made before any more of this fleet is rolled out.

 

[Caaardiff]

Having spoken to the local MS not that long ago, she assured me that she had been assured that TFW's plan was that Aberystwyth to Birmingham would be served hourly throughout the day before the next Senedd election (due May 2026 at the moment).
On the Pwllheli section, the reduction in capacity is tiny so I am not too sure why people are going on and on about it. Machynlleth is very well connected by bus to the rural communities to the north and hopefully we'll see further ticket integration in the not too distant future as TFW has promised.

https://news.tfw.wales/news/transport-for-wales-outline-dates-for-additional-train-services

Hourly services will be Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury, with every other hour extending to Birmingham as currently operated.

• Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury (a consistent one train per hour to all stations) – Will be delivered by May 2024 (revised)

 

[TravelDream]

https://news.tfw.wales/news/transport-for-wales-outline-dates-for-additional-train-services

Hourly services will be Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury, with every other hour extending to Birmingham as currently operated.

• Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury (a consistent one train per hour to all stations) – Will be delivered by May 2024 (revised)

I am just reporting what I was told. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[wobman]

The specs of the 197s has been decided and they are in the build phase, I think around 7 have been delivered so far out of an order of 77 units.
Of the 77 units 21 are ertms units, so far 1 ertms unit has been delivered and is stored at crewe gresty sidings.

The majority of customers won't be bothered about seating alignment, they just want a seat with WiFi and a plug socket. Some posters are obsessed about something that won't change, the whole introduction programme would be heavily delayed if layouts had to change and the backlash would be huge.

Can't we just be happy tfw are getting new trains at last, the last new units were the 175s 20 years ago !

The 197s will be a game changer for the passengers on the wales and borders network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the Pwllheli section, the reduction in capacity is tiny so I am not too sure why people are going on and on about it.

Because it can be quite busy now, and so you are effectively locking in "no growth" for 30+ years. The capacity increase doesn't need to be huge, but moving to 3 car operation on the Pwllhelis would be a good move for the long-term.

 

[Caaardiff]

I am just reporting what I was told. Don't shoot the messenger.

I wasn't. I was merely pointing out the article provided by TfW about the plans.

Because it can be quite busy now, and so you are effectively locking in "no growth" for 30+ years. The capacity increase doesn't need to be huge, but moving to 3 car operation on the Pwllhelis would be a good move for the long-term.

This I can agree with, but I can't see it happening. I do wonder if there will be some kind of frequency increases across some or all of the Cambrian route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This I can agree with, but I can't see it happening. I do wonder if there will be some kind of frequency increases across some or all of the Cambrian route.

I hope so but I too can't see it. It's more of a problem on this specific route because of ETCS which means only the fitted units (which I understand to only be 2-cars) can run there, so unlike if it was still RETB they can't just pilfer a unit from elsewhere to strengthen in summer as Central Trains used to do.

You could argue that the ETCS installation was the problem rather than the 197s, and if you did I'd wholly agree. I can see why they chose it as a trial because of the number of "interesting" features the line has and it being able to save 50p on doing the job at Dyfi properly/avoid digging up a load of nature for another proper platform with sprung points (delete as applicable), but it has overall been nothing but a pain.

 

[RealTrains07]

Also having more fleet types in the mix, none of which are compatible, adds to the complications operationally.

The majority of TfWs existing fleet is in fact compatible. I dont know why you think the 15x fleets aren’t compatible with eachother when actually they all are.

You are aware that the 158s + 153 + 150s have worked toegther plenty of times before under TfW. The only class not compatible in the current fleet is the 175s

And the 197s will in fact not be compatible incompatible with the rest of TfWs new fleet

 

[Caaardiff]

The majority of TfWs existing fleet is in fact compatible. I dont know why you think the 15x fleets aren’t compatible with eachother when actually they all are.

You are aware that the 158s + 153 + 150s have worked toegther plenty of times before under TfW. The only class not compatible in the current fleet is the 175s

And the 197s will in fact not be compatible incompatible with the rest of TfWs new fleet

Yes well aware of that, i was referring to new fleets not being compatible with older fleets being kept. The suggestion was to keep 158's and 175's, which are not compatible, and work them alongside a smaller fleet of 197's, which are compatible with neither of the former, and alongside the Mk4's which also are not compatible with any of those fleets. So keeping 158s and 175s is further isolating the fleets to specific routes and making contingencies less operationally possible.

150's will not be part of the long term fleet plans and only a small number of 153's will be kept to cover Heart of Wales and some West Wales services.

 

[Anonymous10]

Yes well aware of that, i was referring to new fleets not being compatible with older fleets being kept. The suggestion was to keep 158's and 175's, which are not compatible, and work them alongside a smaller fleet of 197's, which are compatible with neither of the former, and alongside the Mk4's which also are not compatible with any of those fleets. So keeping 158s and 175s is further isolating the fleets to specific routes and making contingencies less operationally possible.

150's will not be part of the long term fleet plans and only a small number of 153's will be kept to cover Heart of Wales and some West Wales services.

my understanding is that 153s are only for how services and 197s will operate the west wales services as they are operated by carmarthen based crews and pembroke dock requires 3 units to give a 2 hourly service to Swansea

 

[Anonymous10]

I hope so but I too can't see it. It's more of a problem on this specific route because of ETCS which means only the fitted units (which I understand to only be 2-cars) can run there, so unlike if it was still RETB they can't just pilfer a unit from elsewhere to strengthen in summer as Central Trains used to do.

You could argue that the ETCS installation was the problem rather than the 197s, and if you did I'd wholly agree. I can see why they chose it as a trial because of the number of "interesting" features the line has and it being able to save 50p on doing the job at Dyfi properly/avoid digging up a load of nature for another proper platform with sprung points (delete as applicable), but it has overall been nothing but a pain.

could they not work on improving the line while running 2 cars ie improve it so it could take a 3 car then convert the 3 car units to run?

 

[TravelDream]

And the 197s will in fact not be compatible incompatible with the rest of TfWs new fleet

Only four/five new train types (the 67s with Mark IVs, the Flirts (231s and 756s), the Civities (197s) and Citylinks (398s)) will operate with TFW and all will be incompatible with each other

Which of the types do you think the 197s should be compatible with?
The Citylinks will essentially run on an isolated electrified system. Apart from the odd loco train, the Civities will be the only train in North Wales and will exclusively run on the Cambrian. The Marches is similar though with a few more loco hauled. The only one that could possibly make sense would be the Flirts running on the mainline.

 

[craigybagel]

It is a pity that TfW don’t contact the regulars on this forum and give us a test ride so that we can make comments - good or bad - and perhaps offer suggestions to some tweaks that could be made before any more of this fleet is rolled out.

Given the way this thread has fallen off a cliff, that's probably a good thing

https://news.tfw.wales/news/transport-for-wales-outline-dates-for-additional-train-services

Hourly services will be Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury, with every other hour extending to Birmingham as currently operated.

• Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury (a consistent one train per hour to all stations) – Will be delivered by May 2024 (revised)

To be fair, that doesn't make it clear that the additional services will only be Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury.

Because it can be quite busy now, and so you are effectively locking in "no growth" for 30+ years. The capacity increase doesn't need to be huge, but moving to 3 car operation on the Pwllhelis would be a good move for the long-term.

Nothing is being locked in. Again, I'm not sure why people are so fixated on this. All the units are designed to be ERTMS compatible - if it turns out they need more units fitting with the equipment, it will be a lot easier to do than it was with the 158s. It's really not a big deal.

 

[Caaardiff]

To be fair, that doesn't make it clear that the additional services will only be Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury

True. One thing they could do is attach the Aberystwyth to the Holyhead - Birmingham to make it 6 cars, especially handy at peak times. Depends if there's scope within the fleet numbers.

 

[tomuk]

True. One thing they could do is attach the Aberystwyth to the Holyhead - Birmingham to make it 6 cars, especially handy at peak times. Depends if there's scope within the fleet numbers.

Pre Covid the peak services were 6 cars. In the original franchise plan there was going to be an extra 6 car service in the morning using a 158 released from somewhere. As already said by another poster providing the same level of service isn't really the world class transformation promised after 20 years of no growth.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

As well as being unpleasant for passengers sitting nearby, I've had comments from people who wouldn't be too keen on having to use the toilet when half the carriage (or more) can see you going in there.

You're kidding us, right?

I refuse to believe there are actually people who don't like to be seen entering a toilet. What, are they worried that people might know that they deficate?

How do such delicate wallfowers function in life?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This is the problem with doors at thirds. Class 170s are the same and I agree with Envoy - the bike spaces should be placed by the toilet. The problem is that the bike spaces need to be by the doors so you don't have to take your bike through the middle of the passenger saloon. As well as being unpleasant for passengers sitting nearby, I've had comments from people who wouldn't be too keen on having to use the toilet when half the carriage (or more) can see you going in there.

I think you’d say anything to slag off the 197s and this amusing comment proves that.

 

[tomuk]

I think you’d say anything to slag off the 197s and this amusing comment proves that.

It's not the 197s its the doors, always the doors.

 

[wobman]

No matter what most posters say it seems some people will never be happy with the 197s, if you speak to tfw traincrew we are all excited to eventually get new units.
The passengers will much prefer the new units compared to the present units, I personally wish tfw would keep the 175s for long distance work but tfw want a single universal fleet for the efficiencies it gives them.

One thing I've noticed about the 197's on test is the lack of steps from doors to platform, plus the external parts of the underfloor running gear appear very exposed. Caf and the rog drivers are very busy completing the mileage accumulation runs, there was a 10 car set running about this week through Chester.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As a passenger from Chester (mostly), what differences will I note with TfW's 197s compared to the Northern 195's already operating out of the eastern end of the station?
That's excluding the colour scheme and the gangwayed ends, which are obvious differences.
I suspect there will be little to no difference to the passenger experience.
The same goes for WMT's 196s.
195s are, give or take, very nice trains, certainly compared to what went before.

 

[wobman]

As a passenger from Chester (mostly), what differences will I note with TfW's 197s compared to the Northern 195's already operating out of the eastern end of the station?
That's excluding the colour scheme and the gangwayed ends, which are obvious differences.
I suspect there will be little to no difference to the passenger experience.
The same goes for WMT's 196s.
195s are, give or take, very nice trains, certainly compared to what went before.

I fully agree with what you say, for passengers they will enjoy a much better customer experience. I'm baffled by the huge criticism of a new build train that's not even entered service, they will be so much nicer that sprinters that tfw rely on nowadays. Insides have a different layout as each toc specs it differently, I've been on the 197s and I'm impressed by what I've seen.

 

[Rhydgaled]

You're kidding us, right?

Wrong.

I am not kidding, there are people who don't like it. Maybe not many (or maybe there are loads of them, I have no idea) but they do exist.

This is the problem with doors at thirds. Class 170s are the same and I agree with Envoy - the bike spaces should be placed by the toilet. The problem is that the bike spaces need to be by the doors so you don't have to take your bike through the middle of the passenger saloon. As well as being unpleasant for passengers sitting nearby, I've had comments from people who wouldn't be too keen on having to use the toilet when half the carriage (or more) can see you going in there.

I think you’d say anything to slag off the 197s and this amusing comment proves that.

But those 'amusing' comments did not originate from me - being unpleasant for passengers sitting nearby came from Envoy and being seen going into/out-of the loo isn't something I thought up myself. In fact I'm often told on here that the concerns I raise are things only enthusiasts care about, some of this toilet stuff (particularly the preferring not to be seen going into them) comes from 'normals'.

Another comment that doesn't come from me:

And let's not be mealy-mouthed about things - the service between Perth and Edinburgh is an inter-city service! Let's see it branded and marketed as such using, for the time being, a small fleet of dedicated Class 158s with carriage end doors, instead of the dreadful suburban Class 170s, where every opening of the doors is accompanied by a cold blast of wind for a good part of the year in this part of Scotland.

While Wales may not be as windy as Scotland (although spend some time on Whitland station...), note the description of a class 170 as "dreadful suburban" and that is a proper Turbostar, not the "poor man's Turbostar" label that others have coined to describe the Civities. You see, it's not just me.

 

[craigybagel]

As a passenger from Chester (mostly), what differences will I note with TfW's 197s compared to the Northern 195's already operating out of the eastern end of the station?
That's excluding the colour scheme and the gangwayed ends, which are obvious differences.
I suspect there will be little to no difference to the passenger experience.
The same goes for WMT's 196s.
195s are, give or take, very nice trains, certainly compared to what went before.

Seating comfort is a subjective opinion, and I'm wearisome of starting yet another boring debate on the merits of the different members of the Fainsa family, but most people would say the 197s will have improved seating over the 195s. Some of the units will even have first class, although it remains to be seen if they pass through Chester or not. Also a much higher proportion of services will be run in multiple through Chester in comparison to what Northern run, so you're more likely to get a seat.