CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Dai Corner]

I found the seats worse than 80x stock for some reason. I'm completely unsure why, as they look better and are more padded, but I almost instantly felt lower back pain which continued all journey, not something ive experienced on 80x, and certainly not on the wonderful 175s. Also, whoever thought 2 car trains are suitable for what are effectively intercity services needs their head examining!
I also have a question on the driving that someone may be able to answer? When I travelled, it was a slippy old day, yet the driver seemed to apply a very high amount of power from a standing start , with inevitable slippage. This also continued after what I believe was a driver changeover, so is the initial power notch vastly over powered? Or is it an example of poor training / inexperience? Any help appreciated.

Five cars will be the norm once all units are in service. I'd suggest inexperience as the training will have been done in dry conditions. Perhaps a driver will come along to comment though.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

whoever thought 2 car trains are suitable for what are effectively intercity services needs their head examining!

Much as I dislike TfW and don’t wish to defend them, no one thought that; they don’t plan to use 2 cars on long distance services… Only half of the fleet is in use because there’s ERTMS is hard to sort and there’s an argument over the 3 cars with business, and they were given a tight deadline to remove all 175s by, so while the transition from inherited to new fleet persists, there will be a fair few short formations
(although the number of doubles on Manchester Carmarthen and three-cars on Holyhead Cardiffs is WAY up on a couple of months ago, and the 150 substitutions are almost non-existent when it comes to 197 diagrams. They’re all substituting for the comfortable but nightmarish 67+MK4 sets)

The plan is
5 cars all Manchester Swansea 197s/MK4 (except 2030)
3 cars all Holyhead Cardiff 197s (plus daily 5 car MK4)
3-4 cars all Manchester North Wales, although that’s little more than a glorified commuter service anyway
4 or 6 cars Birmingham Holyheads

Which is a fantastic upgrade on what they could have done with the previous fleet

 

[irish_rail]

Much as I dislike TfW and don’t wish to defend them, no one thought that; they don’t plan to use 2 cars on long distance services… Only half of the fleet is in use because there’s ERTMS is hard to sort and there’s an argument over the 3 cars with business, and they were given a tight deadline to remove all 175s by, so while the transition from inherited to new fleet persists, there will be a fair few short formations
(although the number of doubles on Manchester Carmarthen and three-cars on Holyhead Cardiffs is WAY up on a couple of months ago, and the 150 substitutions are almost non-existent when it comes to 197 diagrams. They’re all substituting for the comfortable but nightmarish 67+MK4 sets)

The plan is
5 cars all Manchester Swansea 197s/MK4 (except 2030)
3 cars all Holyhead Cardiff 197s (plus daily 5 car MK4)
3-4 cars all Manchester North Wales, although that’s little more than a glorified commuter service anyway
4 or 6 cars Birmingham Holyheads

Which is a fantastic upgrade on what they could have done with the previous fleet

Recent experience on the railway has shown time and time again that as soon as a service is booked for 2 sets, then there is a real risk of short forming and this seems to occur time and time again. Better to have specified 5 car sets in the first instance in my opinion.

 

[ajay1071]

To some, not all.

It must be said that the introduction of the 197's has definitely Improved the travelling experience and reliability/performance for the public, and when the full 5 car formations are introduced this will further enhance the longer journeys with TFW. The MK4 diagramed services are definitely a better overall travelling experience and it does seem a disappointing let down when the services have been cancelled or substituted, alas I've noticed a positive improvement, of late, in MK4 availability as most of the teething problems seem to be ironed out at last.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It must be said that the introduction of the 197's has definitely Improved the travelling experience and reliability/performance for the public, and when the full 5 car formations are introduced this will further enhance the longer journeys with TFW. The MK4 diagramed services are definitely a better overall travelling experience and it does seem a disappointing let down when the services have been cancelled or substituted, alas I've noticed a positive improvement, of late, in MK4 availability as most of the teething problems seem to be ironed out at last.

I much prefer a MK4 to a 197 myself but the worn out Virgin Trains East Coast moquette and faded bathroom and FoodBar vinyls, and exterior, just make them feel so tired and tatty compared to the latter.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I also have a question on the driving that someone may be able to answer? When I travelled, it was a slippy old day, yet the driver seemed to apply a very high amount of power from a standing start , with inevitable slippage. This also continued after what I believe was a driver changeover, so is the initial power notch vastly over powered? Or is it an example of poor training / inexperience? Any help appreciated.

Going through driver training on 197’s at the moment (but do not have much practical experience yet).
This probably comes down to how the brake and power system works on the 197.
So to start, the 197 has a combined power brake controller (CPBC) which is a sliding scale and has no notches. The driver moves the handle into the power area and that is translated into a power request to the power packs.

Once the 197’s speed drops to 1MPH the holding brake is automatically applied and once at a stand the CPBC is placed into ‘coast’ and not full service as is done on units such as a class 158.

So to pull away, the driver has to demand enough power from the power packs to overcome the friction of the holding brake, which once released, is likely to be too much power when accelerating on slippery rails. The wheels then slip and the driver reduces power demand to a level that allows the wheels to regain traction and the train pulls away.

This holding brake activating at 1mph is also the reason drivers can no longer get buttery smooth station stations like many of them are so good at on older traction.

 

[Richard Scott]

I think you would struggle to find many who prefer the 197 over the MK4.
I do like the 197 for sure but the MK4 wins out hands down for me.

In my opinion a 197 isn't as good as a 175. A mk4 just leaves it for dead when it comes to comfort and interior ambience.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Recent experience on the railway has shown time and time again that as soon as a service is booked for 2 sets, then there is a real risk of short forming and this seems to occur time and time again. Better to have specified 5 car sets in the first instance in my opinion.

I do agree but the amount of portion working required on TFW routes is crazy. I’d be surprised if any other TOC does as much.
Not to mention that if a fixed 5 car fails and there’s no spare then it’s service cancelled. If a 2 car coupled to a 3 car fails then you still get a 3 car.

if TFW have done their math properly and they don’t have to routinely short form like they do now due to lack of units, then it happening once in a blue moon due to a unit failure, even if it results in a overly busy service, then that’s certainly better than a total cancellation.

 

[Doveymain158]

I do agree but the amount of portion working required on TFW routes is crazy. I’d be surprised if any other TOC does as much.
Not to mention that if a fixed 5 car fails and there’s no spare then it’s service cancelled. If a 2 car coupled to a 3 car fails then you still get a 3 car.

if TFW have done their math properly and they don’t have to routinely short form like they do now due to lack of units, then it happening once in a blue moon due to a unit failure, even if it results in a overly busy service, then that’s certainly better than a total cancellation.

If you think of it as 175 fleet had 11 2-cars, 16 3-car 27 units and 24 2-car 158s. The new 197s 51 2-car sets 26 3-car plus your MK4s. That’s the bulk of mainline fleet. Not including the 11 4-car 231s that will eventually do Ebbw Vale, Maesteg & Cheltenham’s.

 

[irish_rail]

Going through driver training on 197’s at the moment (but do not have much practical experience yet).
This probably comes down to how the brake and power system works on the 197.
So to start, the 197 has a combined power brake controller (CPBC) which is a sliding scale and has no notches. The driver moves the handle into the power area and that is translated into a power request to the power packs.

Once the 197’s speed drops to 1MPH the holding brake is automatically applied and once at a stand the CPBC is placed into ‘coast’ and not full service as is done on units such as a class 158.

So to pull away, the driver has to demand enough power from the power packs to overcome the friction of the holding brake, which once released, is likely to be too much power when accelerating on slippery rails. The wheels then slip and the driver reduces power demand to a level that allows the wheels to regain traction and the train pulls away.

This holding brake activating at 1mph is also the reason drivers can no longer get buttery smooth station stations like many of them are so good at on older traction.

Very interesting, thank you. That does seem to me a design floor. Maybe though I'm over sensitive to this kind of thing as a fellow driver!

 

[GWVillager]

Going through driver training on 197’s at the moment (but do not have much practical experience yet).
This probably comes down to how the brake and power system works on the 197.
So to start, the 197 has a combined power brake controller (CPBC) which is a sliding scale and has no notches. The driver moves the handle into the power area and that is translated into a power request to the power packs.

Once the 197’s speed drops to 1MPH the holding brake is automatically applied and once at a stand the CPBC is placed into ‘coast’ and not full service as is done on units such as a class 158.

So to pull away, the driver has to demand enough power from the power packs to overcome the friction of the holding brake, which once released, is likely to be too much power when accelerating on slippery rails. The wheels then slip and the driver reduces power demand to a level that allows the wheels to regain traction and the train pulls away.

This holding brake activating at 1mph is also the reason drivers can no longer get buttery smooth station stations like many of them are so good at on older traction.

Fascinating. Presumably this is the reason they always “jolt” forwards when starting off as well?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Recent experience on the railway has shown time and time again that as soon as a service is booked for 2 sets, then there is a real risk of short forming and this seems to occur time and time again. Better to have specified 5 car sets in the first instance in my opinion.

I think the underlying problem is a desire to save a wee bit too much money. The optimism of efficiency. Having a shortage of units is not so likely if there are plenty of units. Long units still have to be plentiful anyway. It looks like TfW will end up with a very healthy number of units.

Going through driver training on 197’s at the moment (but do not have much practical experience yet).
This probably comes down to how the brake and power system works on the 197.
So to start, the 197 has a combined power brake controller (CPBC) which is a sliding scale and has no notches. The driver moves the handle into the power area and that is translated into a power request to the power packs.

Once the 197’s speed drops to 1MPH the holding brake is automatically applied and once at a stand the CPBC is placed into ‘coast’ and not full service as is done on units such as a class 158.

So to pull away, the driver has to demand enough power from the power packs to overcome the friction of the holding brake, which once released, is likely to be too much power when accelerating on slippery rails. The wheels then slip and the driver reduces power demand to a level that allows the wheels to regain traction and the train pulls away.

This holding brake activating at 1mph is also the reason drivers can no longer get buttery smooth station stations like many of them are so good at on older traction.

Oh my days. This reminds me of other computerised things and particularly MS software (Windows, Office etc) where you have to use more and more of your intelligence to overcome what the software "thinks" you want to do.

If you think of it as 175 fleet had 11 2-cars, 16 3-car 27 units and 24 2-car 158s. The new 197s 51 2-car sets 26 3-car plus your MK4s. That’s the bulk of mainline fleet. Not including the 11 4-car 231s that will eventually do Ebbw Vale, Maesteg & Cheltenham’s.

So :-
35 x 2-car (158+175) replaced by 51 x 2-car 197s - a gain of 16,
16 x 3-car (175) replaced by 26 x 3-car 197s a gain of 10,
plus Mk4s.
A significant improvement.

The optimist in me hopes that by next summer there will be enough of those 197s in service to fill the gap left by the 175s.

I seem to recall the 158s will be hanging on on the Cambrian for a while longer ?.

 

[Anonymous10]

I think the underlying problem is a desire to save a wee bit too much money. The optimism of efficiency. Having a shortage of units is not so likely if there are plenty of units. Long units still have to be plentiful anyway. It looks like TfW will end up with a very healthy number of units.

Oh my days. This reminds me of other computerised things and particularly MS software (Windows, Office etc) where you have to use more and more of your intelligence to overcome what the software "thinks" you want to do.

So :-
35 x 2-car (158+175) replaced by 51 x 2-car 197s - a gain of 16,
16 x 3-car (175) replaced by 26 x 3-car 197s a gain of 10,
plus Mk4s.
A significant improvement.

The optimist in me hopes that by next summer there will be enough of those 197s in service to fill the gap left by the 175s.

I seem to recall the 158s will be hanging on on the Cambrian for a while longer ?.

Worth remembering they also replace some 153 diagrams in the west.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Worth remembering they also replace some 153 diagrams in the west.

Ah. How many 153s are used out West ?.

 

[Western 52]

Ah. How many 153s are used out West ?.

Pembroke services are usually worked by 3 pairs, although often 150s instead. There are also some used on the Fishguard services, plus some other Swansea to Carmarthen runs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Pembroke services are usually worked by 3 pairs, although often 150s instead. There are also some used on the Fishguard services, plus some other Swansea to Carmarthen runs.

Hopefully some of the 16 extra 197s will cope with tat ?.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So :-
35 x 2-car (158+175) replaced by 51 x 2-car 197s - a gain of 16,
16 x 3-car (175) replaced by 26 x 3-car 197s a gain of 10,
plus Mk4s.
A significant improvement.

There were some 170s in the old mix of TfW units.
The extra Mk4s on the Manchester route were not in the original franchise plan either.

 

[Jez]

The 197s also replaced some 150/153s in the North on the Conwy Valley, Chester to Liverpool and also the Shuttles from Crewe to both Chester and Shrewsbury. Although this is only a few units.

The extra MK4s which replaced some Manchester to Cardiffs will also help balance the use of 197s for West Wales which were originally going to be 170s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It seems obvious that the old units have left TfW as planned but the full complement of replacement 197s is getting into traffic late. When are all 197s now expected to be in traffic (best estimate) ?.

 

[Caaardiff]

The 197s are not a direct replacement for 158s and 175s alone. There's several 150/153 diagrams that 197s will replace.
There is however more 3 car 197s in the fleet which will boost the overall carriage numbers.
TFW are certainly not out of the woods yet with fleet issues. They're increasing services in the December timetable as well as losing the 170s and Northern 150s with nothing to replace them. 197 deliveries are delayed and there's no sign of 756s working the Taff Valleys services just yet.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Very interesting, thank you. That does seem to me a design floor. Maybe though I'm over sensitive to this kind of thing as a fellow driver!

Yes it does but I think it’s the kind of thing you just get used to as a driver.

Fascinating. Presumably this is the reason they always “jolt” forwards when starting off as well?

That does seem to be the case unfortunately. The software was altered in regards to coupling units as that was all computer governed and very rough so I had hoped that it might have been changed in regards to setting off also but it hasn’t been.

So :-
35 x 2-car (158+175) replaced by 51 x 2-car 197s - a gain of 16,
16 x 3-car (175) replaced by 26 x 3-car 197s a gain of 10,
plus Mk4s.
A significant improvement.

Someone on a Facebook page had a note of how many passenger carrying vehicles were left to TFW from ATW and how many their ‘future fleet’ incorporated and it was a significant increase. That was also before the additional MK4’s. I’ll have to see if I can dig the numbers out.

If you think of it as 175 fleet had 11 2-cars, 16 3-car 27 units and 24 2-car 158s. The new 197s 51 2-car sets 26 3-car plus your MK4s. That’s the bulk of mainline fleet. Not including the 11 4-car 231s that will eventually do Ebbw Vale, Maesteg & Cheltenham’s.

I have also heard that there is consideration of bringing the 231’s north towards Shrewsbury.
I’ve put it in its own thread along with probable declassification of business class on the 197’s.

TFW FLIRT and 197 buisness class rumours

For mods, if this thread needs moving or splitting then please feel free. So today, I have been told that there are currently considerations for the Class 231 FLIRT's to make their way North of Cardiff towards shrewbury (exact route north of Shrewsbury unknown). Secondly I was told that the...

www.railforums.co.uk

I seem to recall the 158s will be hanging on on the Cambrian for a while longer ?.

Last plan I heard was final testing of 197’s in December then crew training starts next June/ July with 197’s into service on the Cambrian in December 2024.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Someone on a Facebook page had a note of how many passenger carrying vehicles were left to TFW from ATW and how many their ‘future fleet’ incorporated and it was a significant increase. That was also before the additional MK4’s. I’ll have to see if I can dig the numbers out.

I make it an increase of 40 extra trains and an extra 206 coaches. That doesn't include the four "active travel" 153's.

 

[33017]

Much as I dislike TfW and don’t wish to defend them, no one thought that; they don’t plan to use 2 cars on long distance services… Only half of the fleet is in use because there’s ERTMS is hard to sort and there’s an argument over the 3 cars with business, and they were given a tight deadline to remove all 175s by, so while the transition from inherited to new fleet persists, there will be a fair few short formations
(although the number of doubles on Manchester Carmarthen and three-cars on Holyhead Cardiffs is WAY up on a couple of months ago, and the 150 substitutions are almost non-existent when it comes to 197 diagrams. They’re all substituting for the comfortable but nightmarish 67+MK4 sets)

The plan is
5 cars all Manchester Swansea 197s/MK4 (except 2030)
3 cars all Holyhead Cardiff 197s (plus daily 5 car MK4)
3-4 cars all Manchester North Wales, although that’s little more than a glorified commuter service anyway
4 or 6 cars Birmingham Holyheads

Which is a fantastic upgrade on what they could have done with the previous fleet

There are 25 197 diagrams today. Three are uncovered (all booked to be attached), two are 150s and one a 158.

There are 4 Mk4 diagrams, all of which are covered by loco and stock.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I make it an increase of 40 extra trains and an extra 206 coaches. That doesn't include the four "active travel" 153's.

ahh that looks about right! fantastic, thank you very much for that. certainly a good increase.

There are 25 197 diagrams today. Three are uncovered (all booked to be attached), two are 150s and one a 158.

There are 4 Mk4 diagrams, all of which are covered by loco and stock.

MK4's have been doing much better this last week or so. hope it can continue on.

 

[Richard Scott]

I make it an increase of 40 extra trains and an extra 206 coaches. That doesn't include the four "active travel" 153's.

Don't forget a coach in a Stadler unit os not full length so not as big an increase as quoted.

 

[childwallblues]

The 197s also replaced some 150/153s in the North on the Conwy Valley, Chester to Liverpool and also the Shuttles from Crewe to both Chester and Shrewsbury. Although this is only a few units.

The extra MK4s which replaced some Manchester to Cardiffs will also help balance the use of 197s for West Wales which were originally going to be 170s.

I understood that Chester to Liverpool was booked for 175s though in essence anything turned up. Chester to Liverpool is hourly from December so will require 2 x 197s.

 

[Jez]

I understood that Chester to Liverpool was booked for 175s though in essence anything turned up. Chester to Liverpool is hourly from December so will require 2 x 197s.

They may have been booked as 175 at one point but more recently (before 197s took over) im.sure it was a pair of 153s booked for the Liverpool.service (also the Chester to Crewe shuttle too)..

Although as you say anything from a 175 to a 158 would also turn up.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Don't forget a coach in a Stadler unit os not full length so not as big an increase as quoted.

Correct but I've also worked it out as extra seats and it's an increase of approximately 8500 seats. Approx 17122 to 25786 give or take

 

[Lurcheroo]

Correct but I've also worked it out as extra seats and it's an increase of approximately 8500 seats. Approx 17122 to 25786 give or take

Wow ! Awesome ! Thank you for that.

 

[Richard Scott]

Correct but I've also worked it out as extra seats and it's an increase of approximately 8500 seats. Approx 17122 to 25786 give or take

Great, that's a good measure!