CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Anonymous10]

Yes swapped for a pair of 153s

As I expected to be honest.

 

[BillStampy]

197050 now allocated for Gloucester overnight, possible full 197 diagrams again tomorrow if they're booked. 1723 i believe is 15X and 2237 was a 197 the last 2 days but thats only because of Penarth closure so will return to 150 operation soon.

 

[Rhydgaled]

They’re definitely leased. According to wiki (yes, I know) they're owned by SMBC Leasing.

I understood that all the new-build TfW/KeolisAmey fleets were owned by special purpose ventures (companies that own to isolate any losses from impacting other parts of a larger business - maybe a bit like a reverse form of cross-subsidy between loss-making and profitable bus/rail services). If so, CAMBRIAN RAIL LEASING NO. 1 LIMITED and CAMBRIAN RAIL LEASING NO. 2 LIMITED might well be the special purpose ventures involved, which are/were in turn owned by SMBC in which case Wiki would be (indirectly) correct.

Are the 197s leased or has TfW bought them with the £800m they got from WAG? If they are leased which company is it? Doesn’t seem right they are assembled in Wales then given straight to an external hire firm?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Welsh Government / TfW were originally planning to own the new stock for the 2018 franchise but received an unexpectedly attractive leasing deal so went with that. I doubt very much that they were 'given' to the leasing company though - CAF would have sold them to the leasing company for many millions of Pounds/Euros/Dollars I would expect.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I understood that all the new-build TfW/KeolisAmey fleets were owned by special purpose ventures (companies that own to isolate any losses from impacting other parts of a larger business - maybe a bit like a reverse form of cross-subsidy between loss-making and profitable bus/rail services). If so, CAMBRIAN RAIL LEASING NO. 1 LIMITED and CAMBRIAN RAIL LEASING NO. 2 LIMITED might well be the special purpose ventures involved, which are/were in turn owned by SMBC in which case Wiki would be (indirectly) correct.


I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Welsh Government / TfW were originally planning to own the new stock for the 2018 franchise but received an unexpectedly attractive leasing deal so went with that. I doubt very much that they were 'given' to the leasing company though - CAF would have sold them to the leasing company for many millions of Pounds/Euros/Dollars I would expect.

That’s interesting, far above my head though.

Hopefully sounds like they had a good deal though.

 

[vicbury]

Had my first ride on a 197 today, for a short trip between Severn Tunnel Junction and Lydney. Overall I was quite impressed, despite the copious amounts of litter strewn throughout. Pros and cons from my perspective-

Pros:

• Bright modern design inside and out.
• They are fast, so much faster than the old diesel trains.
• Engine noise was not too intrusive, HVAC very quiet.
• Seats were nice and supportive, if a touch too upright.
• Temperature and air flow was spot on for people wearing coats.

Cons:

• Some vibration from the engine under acceleration.
• Ride got itself stuck in a fidget for a good minute or so before settling down.
• Door control buttons on the inside are not as intuitive as say 170s.
• Grabrails by the doors are awkwardly positioned for when one is waiting for the train to stop.

Overall though a huge improvement on the 150s and 153s, and a good improvement on the 158s.

 

[BenBracken]

Had my first ride on a 197 today, for a short trip between Severn Tunnel Junction and Lydney. Overall I was quite impressed, despite the copious amounts of litter strewn throughout. Pros and cons from my perspective-

Pros:

• Bright modern design inside and out.
• They are fast, so much faster than the old diesel trains.
• Engine noise was not too intrusive, HVAC very quiet.
• Seats were nice and supportive, if a touch too upright.
• Temperature and air flow was spot on for people wearing coats.

Cons:

• Some vibration from the engine under acceleration.
• Ride got itself stuck in a fidget for a good minute or so before settling down.
• Door control buttons on the inside are not as intuitive as say 170s.
• Grabrails by the doors are awkwardly positioned for when one is waiting for the train to stop.

Overall though a huge improvement on the 150s and 153s, and a good improvement on the 158s.

There’s been mixed comments about the seats. But I have to say after going on an IET for the first time in ages the other day, I’d forgotten how bad the seats were on them and how much better the 197s are in comparison!

 

[Lurcheroo]

There’s been mixed comments about the seats. But I have to say after going on an IET for the first time in ages the other day, I’d forgotten how bad the seats were on them and how much better the 197s are in comparison!

I appreciate that the 197 seats are not perfect, but I really think people forget how close we were to getting the IET seats. It was certainly worth the extra £2m for the seats we have.

 

[vicbury]

I appreciate that the 197 seats are not perfect, but I really think people forget how close we were to getting the IET seats. It was certainly worth the extra £2m for the seats we have.

£2m for different seats?! Wow. I actually like the IET seats but then I have an extra firm sofa at home so...

 

[6Gtraincrew]

If anyone is keeping track, 197116 entered service today.

 

[Lurcheroo]

£2m for different seats?! Wow. I actually like the IET seats but then I have an extra firm sofa at home so...

Always down to personal preference! I travelled on an IET Cardiff - Neath about 12 months ago and I was thinking I wouldn’t fancy being on it for hours, the 197’s I’ve been quite happy for over 2 hour journeys.

 

[GWVillager]

I appreciate that the 197 seats are not perfect, but I really think people forget how close we were to getting the IET seats. It was certainly worth the extra £2m for the seats we have.

If I remember correctly, the £2m was to avoid the “ironing boards” fitted to the 195s and 700s.

 

[Western 52]

Aren't the seats in the 800s and 197s the same though, with better cushions in the 197s?

 

[GWVillager]

Aren't the seats in the 800s and 197s the same though, with better cushions in the 197s?

Yes, which is sort of what I was saying, the £2m was to get to Fainsa Sophias instead of Com Rails (as far as I know).

 

[Lurcheroo]

If I remember correctly, the £2m was to avoid the “ironing boards” fitted to the 195s and 700s.

Seems to be about right, looking online.

Aren't the seats in the 800s and 197s the same though, with better cushions in the 197s?

Yes, which is sort of what I was saying, the £2m was to get to Fainsa Sophias instead of Com Rails (as far as I know).

Either way, not perfect, but money well spent in my opinion.

 

[Jamesrob637]

If anyone is keeping track, 197116 entered service today.

How many does that make now? If you say "not enough", you're probably correct

 

[GWVillager]

Either way, not perfect, but money well spent in my opinion.

Certainly! It was a tiny fraction of the total cost and it’s not inconceivable that the number of passengers retained as a result of the seats would contribute more than £2million in revenue over the lifetime of the trains (even if only 15 passengers a day less would travel based on rock hard seats, the total revenue lost over 30 years would, not counting for inflation, exceed £2.2 million with an average ticket price of £15).

Anyway, I’d argue that not installing Com Rails on trains intended for several hour long journeys is just a non-negotiable. If it cost £5m extra, it would still be worth it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems to be about right, looking online.


Either way, not perfect, but money well spent in my opinion.

To be fair they're not standard Sophias, they have a different base cushion that definitely does seem to lack the "metal bar" problem of others. I'd rank them as one of the best modern seats. (Can the salespeople have a word with GWR, TPE, LNER etc?)

 

[GWVillager]

North Wales Coast Railway Notice Board 19 April 2021

By the way, this link has an image of the original Class 197 interiors, which did indeed have Fainsa Com Rails. It looks frightful!

 

[Anonymous10]

To be fair they're not standard Sophias, they have a different base cushion that definitely does seem to lack the "metal bar" problem of others. I'd rank them as one of the best modern seats. (Can the salespeople have a word with GWR, TPE, LNER etc?)

Why not refit the cushion to the iet family?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Why not refit the cushion to the iet family?

There are 9224 standard class seats on the 197 fleet and it was stated that it was £1.9million for the upgrade.
Making it £191 per seat.

There are 37064 standard class seats on the GWR IET fleet, at £191 a seat then that’s a cost of £7.1 million.
Let’s say because it’s such a huge order then could get a 25% discount per seat then at £143 a seat it would still be £5.3 million.

It would be money well spent in my opinion but, try convincing the ones who hold the purse strings of that

 

[Anonymous10]

There are 9224 standard class seats on the 197 fleet and it was stated that it was £1.9million for the upgrade.
Making it £191 per seat.

There are 37064 standard class seats on the GWR IET fleet, at £191 a seat then that’s a cost of £7.1 million.
Let’s say because it’s such a huge order then could get a 25% discount per seat then at £143 a seat it would still be £5.3 million.

It would be money well spent in my opinion but, try convincing the ones who hold the purse strings of that

Sit them on the iet for several hours once a week or more that'll do it

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If anyone is keeping track, 197116 entered service today.

Anything wrong with it? It was swapped for a pair of /0s around 3pm at Chester.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There are 9224 standard class seats on the 197 fleet and it was stated that it was £1.9million for the upgrade.
Making it £191 per seat.

There are 37064 standard class seats on the GWR IET fleet, at £191 a seat then that’s a cost of £7.1 million.
Let’s say because it’s such a huge order then could get a 25% discount per seat then at £143 a seat it would still be £5.3 million.

It would be money well spent in my opinion but, try convincing the ones who hold the purse strings of that

Drifting OT but probably cost more than that because you would not be saving the money spent on the original seats.

 

[iceolate]

197101 failed pulling out of Ludlow today on the Marches route, front engine appeared to shutdown bringing the train to a halt and then failing again almost immediately after being restarted. It did eventually manage to limp as far as Wilmslow running signifcantly late. The 197s are having the odd problems but as a whole my weekly experience of traveling between Cardiff and Manchester are providing they offer the much needed improvement on this line for reliability compared to last year. Next step should be to ensure a minimum 3 coach service to avoid overcrowding.

 

[childwallblues]

If anyone is keeping track, 197116 entered service today.

Saw it in Chester yesterday morning. Starts today on the 0620 Wrexham General to Liverpool Lime Street

 

[nigelsporne]

197101 failed pulling out of Ludlow today on the Marches route, front engine appeared to shutdown bringing the train to a halt and then failing again almost immediately after being restarted. It did eventually manage to limp as far as Wilmslow running signifcantly late. The 197s are having the odd problems but as a whole my weekly experience of traveling between Cardiff and Manchester are providing they offer the much needed improvement on this line for reliability compared to last year. Next step should be to ensure a minimum 3 coach service to avoid overcrowding.

Fitter attention at Shrewsbury too.

 

[Anonymous10]

Fitter attention at Shrewsbury too.

It did go on to return ro Carmarthen though so appears they fixed the issue at Shrewsbury but it was delayed due to being so late on its journey?

 

[nigelsporne]

It didn't take the fitter long at Shrewsbury, 5 mins ish. He did something in the cab. The unit was late arriving and of course late leaving.

 

[nwales58]

It would be money well spent in my opinion but, try convincing the ones who hold the purse strings of that

Worth remembering that Porthmadog-Birmingham or Bangor-Cardiff are about the same journey time as London-Edinburgh …

 

[Snow1964]

TfW has announced that a number of trains will be minimum 4 coaches when Euros football is on

Are any of these 197s (as used in photo) ?

TfW has strengthened key services on match day, and the following day, by adding more carriages and later services in case of extra time and penalties.

Pre-match

• 10:40 Holyhead to Cardiff Central and 12:30 Manchester Piccadilly – Cardiff Central will be a minimum of four carriage trains.
• Additional capacity planned between Cardiff Central and Ninian Park.
• Additional capacity planned on key routes pre-match, focussing on Ebbw Vale, Maesteg, all Valley services, Marches, Vale of Glamorgan, Barry and services from West Wales.

Post-Match

• Full reinstatement of Rhymney, Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr services for the evening. Additional capacity added where possible.
• Additional services to Rhymney, Newport and Penarth.
• Additional services from Ninian Park to Radyr.
• A later Cardiff Central – Crewe via Wrexham / Chester service leaving Cardiff Central at 22:47.
• The key Cardiff Central – Holyhead on the day after the games will leave Cardiff Central at 11:25 as run with a minimum of four carriages.

Full major event plans and standby buses will also be in place for both games.

Marie Daly, Chief Customer and Culture Officer at TfW said: “We recognise the importance of these games and have listened to feedback from our customers about our services on a match day.

“Mid-week matches can be a challenge because we do not have control over important factors such as planned engineering work* and the staffing of signal boxes which can have a big impact on late evening services, but our team have worked hard to add later and additional services where possible.

“We’ll have staff at key stations across Wales on the day of the game and extra staff travelling from North Wales with passengers to provide support to our customers.”

Updates announced to rail services for Wales’ Euro 2024 qualifying matches

Additional capacity and later services have been added for Wales’ Euro 2024 qualifying matches in Cardiff this March. The Wales men’s team play Finland in their play-off semi-final at the Cardiff City Stadium on Thursday 21 March before facing either Poland or Estonia on Tuesday 26 March, which...

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