CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Nick Ashwell]

True, although I think the arguement for TPE is that standard class wheelchair customers would be upgraded to First (although I believe they won't receive free stuff unless they have a first class ticket) where as on TfW a first class ticket holding wheelchair user will be denied the ability to use first class.

That's going to go well when TfW get a disability discrimination lawsuit for a 1st class ticket holder being downgraded on the grounds of them being in a wheelchaiir

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's going to go well when TfW get a disability discrimination lawsuit for a 1st class ticket holder being downgraded on the grounds of them being in a wheelchaiir

ScotRail's 170s don't have wheelchair space in 1st. Have they been in receipt of one yet? I'm suspecting not.

Paying for First Class when you can't use its primary benefit (a more comfortable seat) is a mug's game.

 

[berneyarms]

That's going to go well when TfW get a disability discrimination lawsuit for a 1st class ticket holder being downgraded on the grounds of them being in a wheelchaiir

Greater Anglia have the same issue with the new Stadler trains on London-Norwich, no wheelchair space in 1st Class, but seem to have survived so far.

 

[Domh245]

Greater Anglia have the same issue with the new Stadler trains on London-Norwich, no wheelchair space in 1st Class, but seem to have survived so far.

A situation helped by the fact the FLIRTs didn't run all too many services before lockdown was imposed! There was certainly a fair bit of twitterage about this situation

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Greater Anglia have the same issue with the new Stadler trains on London-Norwich, no wheelchair space in 1st Class, but seem to have survived so far.

It doesn't really matter if another ToC does it. If I buy my wheelchair using sister a first class ticket and she is forcefully downgraded I would push for legal action.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't really matter if another ToC does it. If I buy my wheelchair using sister a first class ticket and she is forcefully downgraded I would push for legal action.

Why would you buy a wheelchair user who stays in their chair a First Class ticket? What's the point on a TOC that offers no ancillary services in 1st? There is literally no point whatsoever. It's a total waste of money. If they transfer to a seat, why does the presence or otherwise of a space there matter, as the chair then becomes luggage?

I'm sorry, but people doing these things just to prove a point with no practical basis discredit the campaigners who do such good work, e.g. taking on Flixbus for their failure to provide accessible coaches.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Why would you buy a wheelchair user who stays in their chair a First Class ticket? What's the point on a TOC that offers no ancillary services in 1st? There is literally no point whatsoever. It's a total waste of money. If they transfer to a seat, why does the presence or otherwise of a space there matter, as the chair then becomes luggage?

I'm sorry, but people doing these things just to prove a point with no practical basis discredit the campaigners who do such good work, e.g. taking on Flixbus for their failure to provide accessible coaches.

If it is part of a longer journey that includes first class catering I will indeed purchase a first class ticket as that is another benefit.

Either way it is disability discrimination, there's no two ways about it

 

[squizzler]

I'm sorry, but people doing these things just to prove a point with no practical basis discredit the campaigners who do such good work

Hear! We risk heading in a rather American direction if such ostentatious threats of litigation become normalised as a way to conduct business.

 

[James James]

Why would you buy a wheelchair user who stays in their chair a First Class ticket? What's the point on a TOC that offers no ancillary services in 1st? There is literally no point whatsoever. It's a total waste of money. If they transfer to a seat, why does the presence or otherwise of a space there matter, as the chair then becomes luggage?

I'm sorry, but people doing these things just to prove a point with no practical basis discredit the campaigners who do such good work, e.g. taking on Flixbus for their failure to provide accessible coaches.

I don't use a wheelchair, but I do pay for first class right now - not because of the seat - but as it tends to be less busy, hence reducing potential exposure to infectious people. Are you also going to claim that's a waste of money? (Similar factors for noise levels during normal times, etc.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't use a wheelchair, but I do pay for first class right now - not because of the seat - but as it tends to be less busy, hence reducing potential exposure to infectious people. Are you also going to claim that's a waste of money? (Similar factors for noise levels during normal times, etc.)

Personally, the only reason I pay for First Class is so that I can have a seat that is (a) wider, and (b) both a window and an aisle seat at the same time (so if I can't reserve a single seat or a seat at a table for 2 I will travel Standard or choose another train). I have no other use-case for it; the Standard quiet coach is generally quieter than any of 1st.

If I was in a wheelchair and intended to remain in the chair I would consider it a gross waste of money.

 

[John R]

What about if the wheelchair user is accompanied by another passenger, either a carer, partner, or indeed anyone else? If they wish to travel 1st do they have to be separated for the journey?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about if the wheelchair user is accompanied by another passenger, either a carer, partner, or indeed anyone else? If they wish to travel 1st do they have to be separated for the journey?

This is much, much more likely to be an issue for Standard than 1st (you potentially have whole entourages after a free upgrade). Unless you have spaces in both, which is unjustifiable in a short DMU.

If this became an issue, removing First Class would be the only sensible option in this context.

 

[James James]

Personally, the only reason I pay for First Class is so that I can have a seat that is (a) wider, and (b) both a window and an aisle seat at the same time (so if I can't reserve a single seat or a seat at a table for 2 I will travel Standard or choose another train). I have no other use-case for it; the Standard quiet coach is generally quieter than any of 1st.

If I was in a wheelchair and intended to remain in the chair I would consider it a gross waste of money.

That's not the question I asked. Is it a waste of money for ME to pay for first for reasons that don't match your reasons (I do prefer the nicer seats, but that's not why I pay for first)?

 

[hexagon789]

Im looking forward to them at the very least.

As I'm I. I always look forward to seeing what new trains are like if nothing else.

 

[Philip]

Is it known yet which of the 175 routes will be first to start losing their 175s and gaining 197s for the service?

Was thinking any of the diagrams which start and end at Chester, so could include both of the Manchester routes.

Is the first 197 close to taking to the tracks for testing?

 

[Cardiff123]

Is the first 197 close to taking to the tracks for testing?

Seeing as TfW's 197 are still being built, I'm guessing the answer is no. The 197s are not expected to start entering passenger service with TfW until early 2022.

 

[Envoy]

Is it known yet which of the 175 routes will be first to start losing their 175s and gaining 197s for the service?

Was thinking any of the diagrams which start and end at Chester, so could include both of the Manchester routes.

Is the first 197 close to taking to the tracks for testing?

I would think that the top priority will be to get rid of the 2 coach 175’s and replace them with 3 coach 197’s. (Hopefully they have requested that the 3 coach units are delivered first)?

 

[Rhydgaled]

I would think that the top priority will be to get rid of the 2 coach 175’s and replace them with 3 coach 197’s. (Hopefully they have requested that the 3 coach units are delivered first)?

I would start with the Crewe-Chester shuttle. Next I would put 4-car formations (2x 2-car units) on the Manchester - Llandudnos followed by putting a 197 on the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper. Depending on the planned timetable for the marches (I'm unclear on whether the Cardiff-Liverpool is intended to be hourly north or south of Shrewsbury) there might also be a new Cardiff-Shrewsbury stopper every two hours which I'd also try to put 197s on, possibily integrated with the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper. Then I would stop there and say we don't want the rest of the 197s (I'm only entertaining the idea of taking any at all because some bodyshells have been fabricated already and it would be a waste to scrap them). To resource the Liverpools (both to north Wales and to Cardiff due to the portion working and incompatible coupler types) I would bring in 158s released from EMR.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I'm unclear on whether the Cardiff-Liverpool is intended to be hourly north or south of Shrewsbury

I think I'm right in saying that Liverpool-Shrewsbury is an hourly service but that only half the trains will continue on to Cardiff providing a two hourly service.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

I think I'm right in saying that Liverpool-Shrewsbury is an hourly service but that only half the trains will continue on to Cardiff providing a two hourly service.

The train is also due to split at Chester, with one half going to Llandudno, and the other half heading to Shrewsbury/Cardiff

 

[Bevan Price]

looking at the train plans in

Transport for Wales defend new Welshpool trains

But illustration appears to show less seats, tables and toilets

www.mywelshpool.co.uk

It appears that a 3 coach 197 with first class areas will lose about 40 standard class seats compared with a 3 coach 175.
A two coach 197 without first class will lose about 20 seats compared with a 2 coach 175, whilst a two coach 197 including first class would only have about 90 standard class seats -- totally inadequate. The people responsible for such ideas must be !!!!****!!!! (censored words)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It appears that a 3 coach 197 with first class areas will lose about 40 standard class seats compared with a 3 coach 175.
A two coach 197 without first class will lose about 20 seats compared with a 2 coach 175, whilst a two coach 197 including first class would only have about 90 standard class seats -- totally inadequate. The people responsible for such ideas must be !!!!****!!!! (censored words)

A considerable capacity reduction for the Cambrian Coast. Madness indeed.

 

[Anonymous10]

looking at the train plans in

Transport for Wales defend new Welshpool trains

But illustration appears to show less seats, tables and toilets

www.mywelshpool.co.uk

It appears that a 3 coach 197 with first class areas will lose about 40 standard class seats compared with a 3 coach 175.
A two coach 197 without first class will lose about 20 seats compared with a 2 coach 175, whilst a two coach 197 including first class would only have about 90 standard class seats -- totally inadequate. The people responsible for such ideas must be !!!!****!!!! (censored words)

We have a capacity issue I know let's get first class and decrease the total standard seats. Beyond sarcasm on InterCity I'd have 3 and 4 car units and on rural routes 2 car

 

[FrodshamJnct]

looking at the train plans in

Transport for Wales defend new Welshpool trains

But illustration appears to show less seats, tables and toilets

www.mywelshpool.co.uk

It appears that a 3 coach 197 with first class areas will lose about 40 standard class seats compared with a 3 coach 175.
A two coach 197 without first class will lose about 20 seats compared with a 2 coach 175, whilst a two coach 197 including first class would only have about 90 standard class seats -- totally inadequate. The people responsible for such ideas must be !!!!****!!!! (censored words)

I look forward to the 1715 and 1750 services from Piccadilly to Chester then if they end up the same way...

 

[py_megapixel]

looking at the train plans in

Transport for Wales defend new Welshpool trains

But illustration appears to show less seats, tables and toilets

www.mywelshpool.co.uk

It appears that a 3 coach 197 with first class areas will lose about 40 standard class seats compared with a 3 coach 175.
A two coach 197 without first class will lose about 20 seats compared with a 2 coach 175, whilst a two coach 197 including first class would only have about 90 standard class seats -- totally inadequate. The people responsible for such ideas must be !!!!****!!!! (censored words)

Indeed. There's loads of other problems with the layout as well, which were discussed a few pages earlier. It's all a bit of a farce really.

 

[Anonymous10]

Indeed. There's loads of other problems with the layout as well, which were discussed a few pages earlier. It's all a bit of a farce really.

It's been made to look good to people who don't use the train ect ie to be look we got nearly a completely new build fleet and all these new trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's been made to look good to people who don't use the train ect ie to be look we got nearly a completely new build fleet and all these new trains

And while COVID might get them off the hook, in pretty much every case of a TOC doing a fleet replacement they've ended up keeping a few older trains because they didn't order enough of the new ones. Oops.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

2 car will have 112 fixed seats and 11 tip-ups.

3 car is 184 fixed and 14 tip-ups

3 car with first is 112 fixed, 11 tip in standard and 18 fixed in 1st class.

DMSL vehicle in all formations only has 42 fixed seats as this coach has the prm bog, 2 wheelchair spaces, bike spaces and catering trolly park in it.

 

[Anonymous10]

And while COVID might get them off the hook, in pretty much every case of a TOC doing a fleet replacement they've ended up keeping a few older trains because they didn't order enough of the new ones. Oops.

To be honest I'd rather keep the 175s and 158s can we just replace 150s 153s and 170s with them pls or maybe I'd keep the 170s over the 197s and order proper long distance intercity trains

Moderator note: please ensure any ideas, suggestions or other speculative posts are posted in the Speculative Ideas section, thanks

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest I'd rather keep the 175s and 158s can we just replace 150s 153s and 170s with them pls or maybe I'd keep the 170s over the 197s and order proper long distance intercity trains

replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ew-197s-for-capacity-to-be-maintained.208441/