CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[AdamWW]

I wouldn't say the seats on a 197 are cramped. I'm 6ft 2 and find them perfectly fine. A 150 or.153 I find cramped.

But there is is no denying standard plus offers far more comfortable seats and more personal space.

No argument with that - it just seems an unusual way to market standard plus.

 

[Topological]

No argument with that - it just seems an unusual way to market standard plus.

Agree.

Just sell the extra space without emphasising the issues that might be encountered in the normal seats.

Well done to TfW for making the upgrade start time so clear though. There have been suggestions from some posters that charges were already in place, or could be leveraged when the branding was in. The more reliable posters have pointed out that no upgrade is charged, and now these cards confirm.

Hopefully have a chance to use standard plus before the charge comes in. No way I would pay because the normal seats are fine.

 

[Cambrian359]

Cards on the tables in standard plus in 197120 this morning saying standard plus is coming late September. Picture shows the card, Welsh on the reverse side.

Can’t help but think that it might be better to wait until 5 car formations are fully in place on the Swansea-Manchester route before starting to charge extra.
This could lead to a lot of staff abuse given the current shortages with no improvements in sight anytime soon.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Well done to TfW for making the upgrade start time so clear though. There have been suggestions from some posters that charges were already in place, or could be leveraged when the branding was in. The more reliable posters have pointed out that no upgrade is charged, and now these cards confirm.

Yep, they were waiting for all units to be branded and the summer period to end, not just charging on units that are branded and not on the unbranded.

Makes it easy to understand then haha!

Hopefully have a chance to use standard plus before the charge comes in. No way I would pay because the normal seats are fine.

Definitely worth doing if you get the opportunity whilst there’s no charge. They’re nice and I like them. A longer journey I’d certainly be thinking about paying the upgrade, a shorter one I may keep my money.
Of course it is each to their own.

Can’t help but think that it might be better to wait until 5 car formations are fully in place on the Swansea-Manchester route before starting to charge extra.
This could lead to a lot of staff abuse given the current shortages with no improvements in sight anytime soon.

The summer period has ended so passengers levels will drop especially on certain routes. This won’t just be on the Manchester’s so makes sense to start charging where they can.
It can be declassified if a train becomes super busy. The TM can make their life as easy or as difficult as they want, is what I was told in my training.

 

[Jez]

No argument with that - it just seems an unusual way to market standard plus.

Ah yes I agree with that.

Agree.

Just sell the extra space without emphasising the issues that might be encountered in the normal seats.

Well done to TfW for making the upgrade start time so clear though. There have been suggestions from some posters that charges were already in place, or could be leveraged when the branding was in. The more reliable posters have pointed out that no upgrade is charged, and now these cards confirm.

Hopefully have a chance to use standard plus before the charge comes in. No way I would pay because the normal seats are fine.

Ive been lucky enough to travel in standard plus once on a journey to Manchester but also a few other shorter journeys. Id most likely only pay for the upgrade if on a long journey and even then it could depend on how much ive paid for my ticket, I may not wish to pay anymore as standard seats are quite sufficient.

The summer period has ended so passengers levels will drop especially on certain routes. This won’t just be on the Manchester’s so makes sense to start charging where they can.
It can be declassified if a train becomes super busy. The TM can make their life as easy or as difficult as they want, is what I was told in my training.

Id hope they would do that if the train became overly busy with many standing passengers in standard class. It could run into problems if the service was say Manchester to Carnarthen and only became at Cardiff. Would any passengers that paid for the upgrade before it became declassified then be at a disadvantage.

 

[TRAX]

Slightly off-topic but given the gangway design of the 197s, wasn’t it time TfW named one of their Civities Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer for the coming Christmas season ?

 

[Topological]

TfW very kindly allocated 124 to the 05:39 from Cardiff so that gives a last chance to try Standard Plus. This is a branded unit, so people are definitely getting on then heading through to the normal standard class.

 

[Western 52]

TfW very kindly allocated 124 to the 05:39 from Cardiff so that gives a last chance to try Standard Plus. This is a branded unit, so people are definitely getting on then heading through to the normal standard class.

I noticed that movement yesterday too. I had 2 trains as the only passenger in standard plus!

 

[Lurcheroo]

TfW very kindly allocated 124 to the 05:39 from Cardiff so that gives a last chance to try Standard Plus. This is a branded unit, so people are definitely getting on then heading through to the normal standard class.

How did you find it ? Would you consider paying for it in future or wouldn’t bother ?

 

[Topological]

I noticed that movement yesterday too. I had 2 trains as the only passenger in standard plus!

There were 4 of us this morning. One was already on when I got on board. At various times others came and went, but predominantly people got on and walked through to the normal standard where it was getting full.

How did you find it ? Would you consider paying for it in future or wouldn’t bother ?

This is my third time using the standard plus. I get on whatever is at the front of the train at Pontypool as it is the quietest end (having been furthest from the stairs at Cardiff). I tend to use a table for two, which is not quite as good as a bay of 4 in standard. A bay of 4 in standard plus feels a little indulgent. Though for much of the journey I could have had the bay to my side to myself.

As mentioned, I am not sure I would pay. IF I got on and the normal standard was full then it might be different, but then I would be cursing TfW for almost "forcing" me to pay. Joining in Manchester / early in the morning in South Wales helps avoid the issue.

124 was also looking a little tired, presumably as the result of declassification. This is the train's first journey of the day so its surprising to see rubbish around the plugs and floor. I do not know if they will get a deeper clean before the charging begins. IF that was the genuine first class offer then it would be a letdown.

There will be people who do want to pay though.

The main objective for me should be ensuring there are at least 3 standard class carriages on all Manchester services.

 

[Lurcheroo]

There were 4 of us this morning. One was already on when I got on board. At various times others came and went, but predominantly people got on and walked through to the normal standard where it was getting full.


This is my third time using the standard plus. I get on whatever is at the front of the train at Pontypool as it is the quietest end (having been furthest from the stairs at Cardiff). I tend to use a table for two, which is not quite as good as a bay of 4 in standard. A bay of 4 in standard plus feels a little indulgent. Though for much of the journey I could have had the bay to my side to myself.

As mentioned, I am not sure I would pay. IF I got on and the normal standard was full then it might be different, but then I would be cursing TfW for almost "forcing" me to pay. Joining in Manchester / early in the morning in South Wales helps avoid the issue.

124 was also looking a little tired, presumably as the result of declassification. This is the train's first journey of the day so its surprising to see rubbish around the plugs and floor. I do not know if they will get a deeper clean before the charging begins. IF that was the genuine first class offer then it would be a letdown.

There will be people who do want to pay though.

The main objective for me should be ensuring there are at least 3 standard class carriages on all Manchester services.

Ahh right! I thought you hadn’t had the chance to sample it yet.

If it’s actual rubbish then that’s unacceptable first thing in the morning as every unit I supposed to be cleaned overnight. Looks like 124 has come off canton so really not great in that respect.

Well hopefully the software changes will move the 5 car clearance forward and will see an improvement, even if that just means we never see 2 cars on that route again it would certainly be a big improvement.

 

[vicbury]

Ahh right! I thought you hadn’t had the chance to sample it yet.

If it’s actual rubbish then that’s unacceptable first thing in the morning as every unit I supposed to be cleaned overnight. Looks like 124 has come off canton so really not great in that respect.

Well hopefully the software changes will move the 5 car clearance forward and will see an improvement, even if that just means we never see 2 cars on that route again it would certainly be a big improvement.

Rubbish and general cleanliness seem to be an issue for TfW, the 197s are already grubbier inside than, for example, CrossCountry's unrefurbished 170s.

To give one other example, I boarded a TfW service from Cheltenham the other day which had been sat in the sidings for a good 10-15 minutes waiting for a delayed CrossCountry service to pass. Despite this, when boarding every table was full of empty bottles and detritus.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Rubbish and general cleanliness seem to be an issue for TfW, the 197s are already grubbier inside than, for example, CrossCountry's unrefurbished 170s.

To give one other example, I boarded a TfW service from Cheltenham the other day which had been sat in the sidings for a good 10-15 minutes waiting for a delayed CrossCountry service to pass. Despite this, when boarding every table was full of empty bottles and detritus.

The only thing I can suggest is that, if you’re ever on a service that’s untidy like that, tell TFW. Take a picture send it to them, don’t have to be angry or upset about it, just a ‘just to make you aware’ is plenty.

On the Cambrian we definitely have cleaners that get on services throughout the day, for example they Will get on at Machynlleth, do a sweep of the train, changes the bin etc. then get off at Aberdovey, get on the next one back to Machynlleth and do the same.

Conductors generally do not do cleaning duties as they don’t have the equipment with them. Some will go around and remove glass bottles but that’s about it.

As for the one sat in the sidings for 10-15 mins, who are you thinking would clean it ? Especially if it’s only waiting for the delayed XC service ?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I used to find it wasn’t usually the 197s (or 158/175/MK4) you’d get litter on, despite running the longer distances, it’d be the 150s and even 231s coming down from the Valleys that’d be trashed. Hen nights and stag does from Merthyr or Pontypridd, or a lads night out from Bargoed, always plenty of racket and plenty of rubbish on late night Valley lines trains. Thank god they’re no longer my local service.

I understand the accessibility requirements, even if the XC and SR 170s get dispensation, but I do think the 197 Standard Plus would otherwise be perfectly acceptable (and less confusing) marketed as First Class, you’d just have to mark that restaurant service is only available on certain trains (the loco hauled ones), and it’s not a complimentary service anyway. You could easily serve hot drinks and those crap beetroot crisps and nuts as per MK4s on the 197/1s from the kitchen bit, and they both have larger, plush leather (or at least partly) seats with recline (more chance of it working on 197s too), a squashy head cushion, and extra space and legroom. You even get the posh lamp on a 197.

So on the back of that (and you’d need to sort availability out anyway to make sure you always had a First Class 197 where one was advertised), Standard Plus should definitely be worth a few pounds to upgrade for a nicer journey. The only drawback is to those who’ve become accustomed to using it for free, but at least it won’t be so tatty from the Maesteg teenagers using it as a den anymore

 

[Topological]

Ahh right! I thought you hadn’t had the chance to sample it yet.

If it’s actual rubbish then that’s unacceptable first thing in the morning as every unit I supposed to be cleaned overnight. Looks like 124 has come off canton so really not great in that respect.

Well hopefully the software changes will move the 5 car clearance forward and will see an improvement, even if that just means we never see 2 cars on that route again it would certainly be a big improvement.

Not the first time I had trains off Canton in bad condition. When I used to take the 05:36 from Swansea that was often dirty despite having come in empty.

The Mk4 on the 16:30 from Manchester is filthy, but that is a bit more understandable now as this was a quick turnaround in Manchester. In the standard on this one and its now quiet leaving Shrewsbury.

 

[aar0]

I’ve normally found TfW one of the cleanest train companies, not unusual to have a cleaner onboard from Swansea collecting litter and folding down the tables to spray and wipe them.

 

[BillStampy]

Not the first time I had trains off Canton in bad condition. When I used to take the 05:36 from Swansea that was often dirty despite having come in empty.

The Mk4 on the 16:30 from Manchester is filthy, but that is a bit more understandable now as this was a quick turnaround in Manchester. In the standard on this one and its now quiet leaving Shrewsbury.

Which way is it facing? Curious as I'm waiting for it at Llanharan and want to know what I'm spotting

I’ve normally found TfW one of the cleanest train companies, not unusual to have a cleaner onboard from Swansea collecting litter and folding down the tables to spray and wipe them.

I do usually see crews walking through during the few minutes at Central doing that too, nice touch in my opinion

 

[vicbury]

The only thing I can suggest is that, if you’re ever on a service that’s untidy like that, tell TFW. Take a picture send it to them, don’t have to be angry or upset about it, just a ‘just to make you aware’ is plenty.

On the Cambrian we definitely have cleaners that get on services throughout the day, for example they Will get on at Machynlleth, do a sweep of the train, changes the bin etc. then get off at Aberdovey, get on the next one back to Machynlleth and do the same.

Conductors generally do not do cleaning duties as they don’t have the equipment with them. Some will go around and remove glass bottles but that’s about it.

As for the one sat in the sidings for 10-15 mins, who are you thinking would clean it ? Especially if it’s only waiting for the delayed XC service ?

Thanks for the info anx

The only thing I can suggest is that, if you’re ever on a service that’s untidy like that, tell TFW. Take a picture send it to them, don’t have to be angry or upset about it, just a ‘just to make you aware’ is plenty.

On the Cambrian we definitely have cleaners that get on services throughout the day, for example they Will get on at Machynlleth, do a sweep of the train, changes the bin etc. then get off at Aberdovey, get on the next one back to Machynlleth and do the same.

Conductors generally do not do cleaning duties as they don’t have the equipment with them. Some will go around and remove glass bottles but that’s about it.

As for the one sat in the sidings for 10-15 mins, who are you thinking would clean it ? Especially if it’s only waiting for the delayed XC service ?

Thanks for the insight as always and good to hear that some services are cleaned during the day. Sounds like it could be a quick win for gloves to be available so that conductors could quickly remove any litter left on tables or seats. Noted on sending feedback to customer services.

 

[Topological]

Which way is it facing? Curious as I'm waiting for it at Llanharan and want to know what I'm spotting


I do usually see crews walking through during the few minutes at Central doing that too, nice touch in my opinion

DVT was towards Swansea. I always aim for the furthest carriage from the buffers at Piccadilly and since they added the 5th carriage next to the DVT it makes it certain that I need to head to the furthest point (was harder when there were only 21/2 carriages of standard on the Mk4 sets.

I got off in Pontypool because I can pass Port Talbot Parkway at least 10 minutes before the train.

 

[BillStampy]

197119 has made a surprise appearance apparently running empty to Canton with 116

 

[87electric]

197119 has made a surprise appearance apparently running empty to Canton with 116

It’s (119) just left Cardiff Central on 1B39 to Swansea.

 

[BillStampy]

It’s (119) just left Cardiff Central on 1B39 to Swansea.

And that ticks another off! Two to go! (In terms of 197/1s! I think..)

 

[Lurcheroo]

And that ticks another off! Two to go! (In terms of 197/1s! I think..)

Is it’s 119’s first day in service ? I don’t keep track of these. How many more of the 3 cars aren’t in service yet? Is it just 3 ?

 

[BillStampy]

Is it’s 119’s first day in service ? I don’t keep track of these. How many more of the 3 cars aren’t in service yet? Is it just 3 ?

I believe so, haven't seen 119 in service at all until now. I believe those not in service are 123 and 126, so two.

 

[SeaKing]

I believe so, haven't seen 119 in service at all until now. I believe those not in service are 123 and 126, so two.

Believe 126 is still in Factory.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I believe so, haven't seen 119 in service at all until now. I believe those not in service are 123 and 126, so two.

Great stuff, we need every unit so fingers crossed they’re not too far behind either.

 

[MP393]

Standard Plus will go live for upgrades on 30th September. From the Dec TT the 197/1s fitted with SP will have different diagram numbers to help keep them to the correct routes, but obviously things will still slip from time to time as ultimately there is still a shortage of units and maintenance requirements to get them correct at end of day etc.

 

[WirralLine]

Standard Plus will go live for upgrades on 30th September. From the Dec TT the 197/1s fitted with SP will have different diagram numbers to help keep them to the correct routes, but obviously things will still slip from time to time as ultimately there is still a shortage of units and maintenance requirements to get them correct at end of day etc.

Also plans in place long term for external branding, CIS screen updates and onboard screen updates to advertise standard plus being onboard.

 

[Jez]

Standard Plus will go live for upgrades on 30th September. From the Dec TT the 197/1s fitted with SP will have different diagram numbers to help keep them to the correct routes, but obviously things will still slip from time to time as ultimately there is still a shortage of units and maintenance requirements to get them correct at end of day etc.

Thats excellent and im pleased to hear there will be different diagrams for the SP sets. It will help to ensure SP is on the routes where its most needed and customers will hopefully get used to it being there.

 

[Philip]

Which routes are the SP units intended for, from December?

Assuming they'll only do Manchester-Swansea every 2 hours, that'll only require 5 of 6 SP units from the total of 14. Are the rest intended for Cardiff-Holyhead, Manchester-Llandudno, or a mixture of both?