Calculation of one-way excess to first class when TOC-specific fares exist

[MKB]

We have an off-peak day return from Crewe to Liverpool next month bought using a Two-Together railcard for £7.20 each.

We will be travelling to Liverpool on London Midland and back on Virgin. I want to excess the return leg to first class.

Relevant fares (with railcard) are:

Off-peak Day Return (Standard) = £7.20
Anytime Day Return (Standard, VT only) = £8.40
Anytime Day Return (Standard) = £10.50

Anytime Day Single (Standard, VT only) = £7.05
Anytime Day Single (Standard) = £8.80
Anytime Day Single (First, VT only) = £7.80
Anytime Day Single (First) = £9.70

Can the VT-only fares be used when calculating the two differences?
If so, do I have to excess after taking the outbound on LM?

 

[reb0118]

Firstly excess to the relevant Anytime return then excess the return portion to 1st by paying half the difference between the Anytime return & the 1st. As you have travelled out by LM I feel you should not use the VT only fares but that is only my opinion you can but ask.........

1) First excess: £10.50 - £7.20 = £3.30

2) Second excess: (£19.40 - £10.50)/2 = £4.45

3) Total excess: £7.75 ea.

4) Total paid pp: £14.95

OR

1) SDS: £7.15

2) FDS (VT ONLY): £7.80

3) Total paid pp: £14.95

 

[MKB]

Thanks for the reply.

I don't understand your step 2. I thought step 2 was meant to be the difference between the first and standard anytime day single fares?

So, if I want to be able to return to Crewe by any operator:

- first difference = £3.30
- second difference = £9.70 - £8.80 = £0.90

...making a total per person excess of £4.20.

Is that wrong?

My question was, if I only want to return via Virgin, can I instead use the VT-only first class day single fare in the calculation? So:

- first difference = £3.30
- second difference = £7.80 - £8.80 = minus £1.00

...making a total per person excess of either £3.30 or £2.30, depending on how negative excesses are handled here.

 

[reb0118]

Thanks for the reply.

I don't understand your step 2. I thought step 2 was meant to be the difference between the first and standard anytime day single fares?

A STD to 1st upgrade for one leg of a return journey is worked out at half the difference of the anytime appropriate return fares.

Re. your second point about the VT ONLY fares - I am not sure on this but if you originally hold an any permitted ticket I think you may only be able to get an excess to another any permitted ticket as you could've travelled with any operator on your outward journey. That said it would be in Virgin's financial interest to allow the excess to their own fare - I assume you would do this at Crewe Travel Centre which IIRC is run by Virgin. Again I'm not sure about the above as it is possible to excess to TOC ONLY fares in other circumstances? If you don't ask you don't get......

 

[Starmill]

A STD to 1st upgrade for one leg of a return journey is worked out at half the difference of the appropriate return fares.

Even though in some cases this is rather more expensive!

 

[CyrusWuff]

Firstly excess to the relevant Anytime return then excess the return portion to 1st by paying half the difference between the Anytime return & the 1st. As you have travelled out by LM I feel you should not use the VT only fares but that is only my opinion you can but ask.........

Last I checked, it was the difference between the price already paid and the sum of the appropriate Single fares (or the difference between the Returns where that's cheaper). At least that's what the Fares & Ticketing Guide shows, I'd have to double check KnowledgeBase when I'm next in.

In this case, doing it in a single step makes no difference to the result compared to your two step excess, but it potentially could for some journeys.

Price originally paid: £7.20
Off-Peak Day Single Crewe - Liverpool: £7.15
First Class Anytime Day Single Liverpool - Crewe (VWC only): £7.80
Single Excess: £7.75

Comparing the Returns results in a £12.20 Excess (to the £19.40 Any Permitted First Class Anytime Return).

 

[bb21]

My understanding of this type of excess aligns with CyrusWuff's post above, but this one has always been a bit contentious, as I am aware of at least four different approaches taken by guards of different TOCs from previous stories on the forum, and they all had their own merits. Which one will be used on the day is unfortunately impossible to tell.

 

[reb0118]

I'm in tomorrow so will ask at both my local and home depot stations to see how the booking offices up here would do it. I know I'll get many different answers asking fellow guards.......

 

[razor89]

Last I checked, it was the difference between the price already paid and the sum of the appropriate Single fares (or the difference between the Returns where that's cheaper). At least that's what the Fares & Ticketing Guide shows, I'd have to double check KnowledgeBase when I'm next in.

In this case, doing it in a single step makes no difference to the result compared to your two step excess, but it potentially could for some journeys.

Price originally paid: £7.20
Off-Peak Day Single Crewe - Liverpool: £7.15
First Class Anytime Day Single Liverpool - Crewe (VWC only): £7.80
Single Excess: £7.75

Comparing the Returns results in a £12.20 Excess (to the £19.40 Any Permitted First Class Anytime Return).

This is how my TIS automatically calculates it with the exception that it defaults to the VT only Off-Peak Day Single Crewe - Liverpool at £7.05, resulting in an excess to pay of £7.65.

 

[reb0118]

Price originally paid: £7.20
Off-Peak Day Single Crewe - Liverpool: £7.15
First Class Anytime Day Single Liverpool - Crewe (VWC only): £7.80
Single Excess: £7.75

Whilst not saying that you are wrong, just thinking about this for a wee moment I can see a flaw in this process. Viz.:-

If we take the original price at £7.20 and in theory the passenger then wants to upgrade their outward journey to 1st - so we add £7.75. Giving us a running total of £14.95.

Now if the passenger enjoys 1st so much on the outward that they now wish to upgrade again on the return so we add another £7.75 to give us a final total of £22.70 - which would result in them paying more than the 1st Anytime return of £19.40.

Confused.com?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Whilst not saying that you are wrong, just thinking about this for a wee moment I can see a flaw in this process. Viz.:-

If we take the original price at £7.20 and in theory the passenger then wants to upgrade their outward journey to 1st - so we add £7.75. Giving us a running total of £14.95.

Now if the passenger enjoys 1st so much on the outward that they now wish to upgrade again on the return so we add another £7.75 to give us a final total of £22.70 - which would result in them paying more than the 1st Anytime return of £19.40.

Confused.com?

Should the passenger wish to excess both directions, the 1st Return fare should be the basis of the excess, not the Single fares.

An excess fare does not replace the return fare with two singles, it simply changes one fare into another for an additional fee. This is where so many theories about Excess Fares on this forum go so badly wrong.

 

[Starmill]

This is very interesting indeed. So it would be policy to use the single in one direction only?

Image someone with a Manchester Airport <> Leeds SOR who'd like to travel First in one direction only. There's quite the difference depending on which method is chosen.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

This is very interesting indeed. So it would be policy to use the single in one direction only?

Image someone with a Manchester Airport <> Leeds SOR who'd like to travel First in one direction only. There's quite the difference depending on which method is chosen.

Try to think of it as what the clerk would have issued had you asked them for what you wanted in the first place.

Return in standard class only = standard class return (unless singles are cheaper).
Return in first class only = first class return (unless singles are cheaper).
Return with first class in one direction only = Two singles (unless a return is cheaper).

 

[MKB]

Many thanks for the replies. That's appreciated. However, I'm more confused than when I started.

The official public policy is here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx

It's difficult to read, because they've missed out paragraph marks and some full stops, but the relevant bit says:

Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak - simply pay the difference between the fare paid and the Standard Anytime Return PLUS the difference between the Standard Anytime Single and the First Anytime Single fare.

According to that, the excess is:

(Standard Anytime Return - Off-Peak Return) + (First Anytime Single - Standard Anytime Single)

which, ignoring VT-only fares, is:

(£10.50 - £7.20) + (£9.70 - £8.80) = £3.30 + £0.90 = £4.20

None of the respondents seem to be advocating that method, so is National Rail wrong? Am I misunderstanding something?

 

[Reason077]

You know, someone should make a web app to calculate the cost of 1st upgrade excess fares.

It sounds like it would be a good use of the brfares.com developer API!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Many thanks for the replies. That's appreciated. However, I'm more confused than when I started.

The official public policy is here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx

It's difficult to read, because they've missed out paragraph marks and some full stops, but the relevant bit says:



According to that, the excess is:

(Standard Anytime Return - Off-Peak Return) + (First Anytime Single - Standard Anytime Single)

which, ignoring VT-only fares, is:

(£10.50 - £7.20) + (£9.70 - £8.80) = £3.30 + £0.90 = £4.20

None of the respondents seem to be advocating that method, so is National Rail wrong? Am I misunderstanding something?

Some pages on the public NRES website can hold information that is as much as three years out of date, so I wouldn't call anything on there official.

 

[hounddog]

Some pages on the public NRES website can hold information that is as much as three years out of date, so I wouldn't call anything on there official.

But it's 'the official source'. Or is that only when it suits the TOCs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You know, someone should make a web app to calculate the cost of 1st upgrade excess fares.

The complexity of this is yet another reason to go to single fare pricing. Pay the difference between the two fares for that leg - simple as that.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But it's 'the official source'. Or is that only when it suits the TOCs?

I can't say I can recall the TOCs claiming that (though they might recommend utilising the journey planner), seen plenty on here claim it when it suits though.

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[hounddog]

I'm sure NRE used to call itself 'the official source'. Maybe I've just remembered people here using the phrase.

Edit: found it:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/46383.aspx

We are the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm sure NRE used to call itself 'the official source'. Maybe I've just remembered people here using the phrase.

Edit: found it:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/46383.aspx

NRES is not a TOC, it is not run by a TOC.

 

[SickyNicky]

NRES is not a TOC, it is not run by a TOC.

True, but I think it's fair to say that it represents the TOCs.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

True, but I think it's fair to say that it represents the TOCs.

Maybe, but that's not the point that was made, and as the TOCs have no direct control over the site, I think it is quite harsh to say that they have said what the website says.

 

[hounddog]

Maybe, but that's not the point that was made, and as the TOCs have no direct control over the site, I think it is quite harsh to say that they have said what the website says.

NRE is part of ATOC, so anything they say is the view of the TOCs collectively, even if one or two wish it wasn't.

 

[CyrusWuff]

NRE is part of ATOC, so anything they say is the view of the TOCs collectively, even if one or two wish it wasn't.

Following that reasoning, if NRE told you that a ticket routed "Grand Central only" was valid on Virgin Trains East Coast, what would you do when the Train Manager inevitably took exception and asked you to buy a new ticket?

 

[hounddog]

Following that reasoning, if NRE told you that a ticket routed "Grand Central only" was valid on Virgin Trains East Coast, what would you do when the Train Manager inevitably took exception and asked you to buy a new ticket?

Has it hypothetically given me an itinerary for that train with that ticket?

 

[premier01]

This brings back memories when this was one of the first topics I posted back in 2009-

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=25973

At the time it was clear that the correct process for one way excess to 1st Class was:-

FDS-SDS for an anytime ticket.

Exactly as per the NRE website and the FRPP official manual stated this clearly also.

I lost count of the debates had with ticket sales and TOC staff even when producing an endorsed print out from the fares manual.

However this was changed a few years later and reflects the process outlined in the updated fares manual as referred to by CyrusWuff-

SDS + FDS - price paid or if cheaper a new FDS.

This method usually works out a lot more expensive than the previous method or indeed the SOR + FOR / 2 process!

I have done dozens of these transactions since 2009 on many routes and can advise that this ( SOR + FOR / 2 ) is by far the most popular method used by ticket sales and train staff but it was and still is wrong.

It does compare more favourably to the current correct method in most cases howerver.

Interestingly more and more train staff have been using the SDS + FDS method recently!

Frustrating how you can be charged 3 different prices for the same transaction as per a regular journey that I take betwen Preston and Leeds:

1. Current published method in the fares manual- £ 21.40

2. Most popular method halving the SOR and FOR difference-
£ 14.50

3. Previous method as per NRE website- £ 7.60

Interetsing but not surprising that nearly 7 yeats on folk still have the same problems and the NRE website still has the same information

 

[MKB]

In the event, I was charged £6.10 per person for the excess.