Caledonian Sleeper - Bargain Berths?

[Tobbes]

Afternoon everyone,

When I was previously working in London, it was possible to book bargain berths on the sleeper. If you were lucky/early, this could be a remarkably good deal of £38/rtn from Euston to Inverness/Fort William/Aberdeen. I presume that this is dead and gone, but (with a case of cabin fever with the current restrictions), I just wanted to check.

Many thanks

Toby

 

[route101]

Afternoon everyone,

When I was previously working in London, it was possible to book bargain berths on the sleeper. If you were lucky/early, this could be a remarkably good deal of £38/rtn from Euston to Inverness/Fort William/Aberdeen. I presume that this is dead and gone, but (with a case of cabin fever with the current restrictions), I just wanted to check.

Many thanks

Toby

Think it stopped before serco took over , may of been before that .

Do think there should be a cheaper fare for berths, Say £50 - £75 one way booked at least a week in advance.

 

[Tobbes]

Many thanks - if nothing else, it would make sense to have some sort of stand-by fare, because (in normal times) there's no point in the berths running empty - and £195/rtn isn't cheap compare with flying, which I'd have thought we want to discourage.

 

[alistairlees]

Think it stopped before serco took over , may of been before that .

Do think there should be a cheaper fare for berths, Say £50 - £75 one way booked at least a week in advance.

Or, to put it another way, you think that taxpayers should subsidise the sleeper more.

 

[Tobbes]

Or, to put it another way, you think that taxpayers should subsidise the sleeper more.

This would only be true if these discounted berths would be filled by full-fare customers, which is why a stand-by system would maximise revenue by only selling off those that would be empty - given the fixed costs, if the fare was greater than the laundry bill (also probably fixed) and the cost of breakfast (probably variable) then it would be revenue positive.

 

[alistairlees]

This would only be true if these discounted berths would be filled by full-fare customers, which is why a stand-by system would maximise revenue by only selling off those that would be empty - given the fixed costs, if the fare was greater than the laundry bill (also probably fixed) and the cost of breakfast (probably variable) then it would be revenue positive.

Or revenue-abstractive, if people who would otherwise have bought full-price tickets bought bargain berths instead.

 

[Tobbes]

Or revenue-abstractive, if people who would otherwise have bought full-price tickets bought bargain berths instead.

Clearly a risk, which is why you would only sell them late - within 2 hours of departure?

 

[Haywain]

a stand-by system would maximise revenue by only selling off those that would be empty

At what point do you decide they 'would be empty'?

 

[Tobbes]

At what point do you decide they 'would be empty'?

See above - not booked with 120 mins to departure? How many are sold in the last 2 hours?

 

[causton]

See above - not booked with 120 mins to departure? How many are sold in the last 2 hours?

Who would actually book one with less than 2 hours to go?

Normally you don't book a sleeper as an impulse decision, it would be part of a plan for a business trip/holiday etc.

So you will go "ok I'll sit on the concourse at Euston at 10pm at night, or at Corrour at 6pm on a winter's evening, waiting for the cheap tickets to be released..."
And then they aren't. Then what do you do?

How many berths remain unsold at this time anyway? And do they get a lot more than that from upgrading people in seats once the train has set off??

 

[Tobbes]

Who would actually book one with less than 2 hours to go?

Normally you don't book a sleeper as an impulse decision, it would be part of a plan for a business trip/holiday etc.

So you will go "ok I'll sit on the concourse at Euston at 10pm at night waiting for the cheap tickets to be released..."
And then they aren't. Then what do you do?

How many berths remain unsold at this time anyway? And do they get a lot more than that from upgrading people in seats once the train has set off??

All good questions for the operator.

What you'd probably tap are backpackers and impulse purchasers. I'd be up for taking a backpack for the weekend to the office on a Thursday and wander up to Euston at 1830 and see if there were some cheap returns going- and if not, spend the weekend doing something else.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

What you'd probably tap are backpackers and impulse purchasers. I'd be up for taking a backpack for the weekend to the office on a Thursday and wander up to Euston at 1830 and see if there were some cheap returns going- and if not, spend the weekend doing something else.

I doubt you would be tapping a very large market. More likely that people plan long distance trips to fit in with friends they might travel with/visit, or go for a specific planned business trip or holiday. They could not risk gambling on possibly not getting there.

 

[Tobbes]

I can only speak of my own experience, but if you were to sell 15 additional berths at £100/rtn that were otherwise empty a week, then you're looking at £6k/month which isn't much but every little bit helps.

 

[JonathanH]

What you'd probably tap are backpackers and impulse purchasers. I'd be up for taking a backpack for the weekend to the office on a Thursday and wander up to Euston at 1830 and see if there were some cheap returns going- and if not, spend the weekend doing something else.

Funnily enough, it is weekends when the sleeper is busiest. There almost certainly isn't going to be capacity for impulse buyers at the weekend.

The times when the sleeper has spare capacity are winter nights early in the week - Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday night. There may be an argument for cheaper fares on these nights but again, funnily enough, it is these nights when it is already cheaper.

Short of people who want to make leaps for class 66s on the Inverness portion, there probably isn't much demand for short notice trips on weeknights.

 

[paul1609]

Many thanks - if nothing else, it would make sense to have some sort of stand-by fare, because (in normal times) there's no point in the berths running empty - and £195/rtn isn't cheap compare with flying, which I'd have thought we want to discourage.

A normal London to Fort William off peak return is £180, the cheapest advance is £50 but your much more likely to pay £75 each way. If you want a cheap overnight fare then theres the seats. I don't understand why you'd expect the berths to undercut the day time rail fare?

 

[philthetube]

Clearly a risk, which is why you would only sell them late - within 2 hours of departure?

Be a big risk buying one of those unless you were prepared to pay full fare to return.

 

[bkhtele]

The old bargain berth were great. If you could predict the nights that are quiet you could sell off the first 6 or so berths at a discount like the airlines sell the first seats then put the price up. None refundable money paid 6 or 12 months in advance, the toc would have the money early & the sleeper would be fuller. Perhaps they do some of this already, it is early days for the new sleeper

 

[alistairlees]

The old bargain berth were great. If you could predict the nights that are quiet you could sell off the first 6 or so berths at a discount like the airlines sell the first seats then put the price up. None refundable money paid 6 or 12 months in advance, the toc would have the money early & the sleeper would be fuller. Perhaps they do some of this already, it is early days for the new sleeper

They already do this, just not at the price points that you want. There is no need to - sales were at record levels (as stated in the Scottish Parliament) before the current crisis. Bargain Berths were a product of their time and reflected very low loadings and rail product that had little management focus as well as being 35 years old. They simply are not required any more.

 

[bkhtele]

Makes sense

 

[route101]

Who would actually book one with less than 2 hours to go?

Normally you don't book a sleeper as an impulse decision, it would be part of a plan for a business trip/holiday etc.

So you will go "ok I'll sit on the concourse at Euston at 10pm at night, or at Corrour at 6pm on a winter's evening, waiting for the cheap tickets to be released..."
And then they aren't. Then what do you do?

How many berths remain unsold at this time anyway? And do they get a lot more than that from upgrading people in seats once the train has set off??

I booked th day before a few times , if i have a few days off and weather is good ,dont plan domestic trips months in advance

 

[causton]

I booked th day before a few times , if i have a few days off and weather is good ,dont plan domestic trips months in advance

So have I. I've even booked on the same day. But waiting till 10pm on the evening to rock up at Euston and only then know if you're actually going?

 

[BigCj34]

I wonder if this is something Seatfrog could cover? Given that exists already and has established itself with various Intercity franchises it could make sense and is not proposing anything radical. It serves a market where upgrading would be nice-to-have where the price is right but can revert to their original purchase otherwise.

It is unlikely to cannibalize existing sales as upgrades are subject to availability on the night, anyone who wants a berth would already have bought one.

 

[paul1609]

I wonder if this is something Seatfrog could cover? Given that exists already and has established itself with various Intercity franchises it could make sense and is not proposing anything radical. It serves a market where upgrading would be nice-to-have where the price is right but can revert to their original purchase otherwise.

It is unlikely to cannibalize existing sales as upgrades are subject to availability on the night, anyone who wants a berth would already have bought one.

Wouldn't work for me if "the seats" is the basic option I'd much rather take the overnight Megabus service to Glasgow,Stirling or Perth have a proper breakfast then a daytime train or coach on in to the highlands.
I'd probably consider the West Highland seats if only it had a through coach, I really don't understand the logic of the majority of the customers having to change at Edinburgh so half a dozen passengers can have a through coach to/ from Aberdeen.

 

[JonathanH]

I really don't understand the logic of the majority of the customers having to change at Edinburgh so half a dozen passengers can have a through coach to/ from Aberdeen.

While I acknowledge that the change of carriage at Edinburgh surpresses demand for the West Highland portion, there are still more seated passengers year round for the Aberdeen portion than the Fort William service. If that wasn't the case and seated bookings increased on the Fort William portion year round they would no doubt switch it over.

 

[BigCj34]

What us the reason for the Edinburgh changeover? Would having three seated carriages on the train make it too long for Euston? The current set up does restrict capacity for through journeys, so the seated carriage from Fort William for instance mighrtonly carry a third of its capacity, relying on bookings up to Edinburgh to fill the rest of the seats (which has become harder as many journey planners do not show the sleeper service anymore).

I am not too sure what relevance having Seatfrog upgrades has to do with people being deterred from booking a seat due to the Edinburgh carriage change. Unless you are talking about having enough potential seated customers to sell a Seatfrog upgrade to.

 

[gazthomas]

What us the reason for the Edinburgh changeover? Would having three seated carriages on the train make it too long for Euston? The current set up does restrict capacity for through journeys, so the seated carriage from Fort William for instance mighrtonly carry a third of its capacity, relying on bookings up to Edinburgh to fill the rest of the seats (which has become harder as many journey planners do not show the sleeper service anymore).

I am not too sure what relevance having Seatfrog upgrades has to do with people being deterred from booking a seat due to the Edinburgh carriage change. Unless you are talking about having enough potential seated customers to sell a Seatfrog upgrade to.

They come from Fort William and go back from Edinburgh

 

[Hadders]

What us the reason for the Edinburgh changeover? Would having three seated carriages on the train make it too long for Euston?

Correct. As I understand the platforms at Euston aren't long enough which is why the seated Fort William portion doesn't go to/from Euston.

 

[Haywain]

Correct. As I understand the platforms at Euston aren't long enough which is why the seated Fort William portion doesn't go to/from Euston.

Plus it has to act as a day coach between Edinburgh and Fort William.

 

[JonathanH]

The combined traffic to Fort William and Aberdeen from London doesn't justify two lounge cars and two seated cars and each "set" is standardised on having six sleeping cars, one lounge car and one seated car.

 

[paul1609]

What us the reason for the Edinburgh changeover? Would having three seated carriages on the train make it too long for Euston? The current set up does restrict capacity for through journeys, so the seated carriage from Fort William for instance mighrtonly carry a third of its capacity, relying on bookings up to Edinburgh to fill the rest of the seats (which has become harder as many journey planners do not show the sleeper service anymore).

I am not too sure what relevance having Seatfrog upgrades has to do with people being deterred from booking a seat due to the Edinburgh carriage change. Unless you are talking about having enough potential seated customers to sell a Seatfrog upgrade to.

I was saying that I don't use the seats as the overnight Megabus service (to Glasgow, Stirling and Perth) is a better experience so theres no chance of me using a seat frog type upgrade to a berth. The only seats I would consider would be a through service to Fort William. I suspect the through coach to Aberdeen has long been as a result of operating convenience rather than meeting customer demand especially in the summer months.