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Caledonian Sleeper discussion

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marks87

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I thought they just mix and match depending on general demand? Aberdeen has always had 4 x sleepers from what I remember.

Don't know the coach letters off by heart, but I'm positive this is the Highland Sleeper Formation out of Euston (in order: rear to front)

1 x Mk2 Seated [Aberdeen]
1 x Mk2 Lounge [""]
1 x Mk3 Sleeper (D)
3 (or 2) x Mk3 Sleepers [""]
-----------------------------
1 (or 2) x Mk3 Sleepers [Fort William*]
1 x Mk3 Sleeper (D)
-----------------------------
1 x Mk2 Seated [ Inverness]
1 x Mk2 Lounge
1 x Mk3 Sleeper (D)
5 x Mk3 Sleepers
-----------------------------
1 x Loco [Edinburgh]

The Southbound sleeper is the exact same formation. The potions from Aberdeen and Fort William equate to 8 on arrival at Euston, so form the Inverness portion Northbound.

*1 x Mk2 Lounge & 1 x Mk2 Seated coupled (N/B) and uncoupled (S/B) at Edinburgh
(D) = Accessible berth & Accessible toilet

I'm positive that Inverness is at the rear. It's the first departure from Waverley so having it at the rear avoids unnecessary shunting. The Inverness seats are also coach A which suggest they're at the rear (rather than midway through).

Edit: I see you've edited in the time it took me to reply; I was off looking for evidence to back up my view!
 
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Scotrail84

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I thought they just mix and match depending on general demand? Aberdeen has always had 4 x sleepers from what I remember.

Don't know the coach letters off by heart, but I'm positive this is the Highland Sleeper Formation out of Euston (in order: rear to front)

1 x Mk2 Seated [ Inverness]
1 x Mk2 Lounge
1 x Mk3 Sleeper (D)
5 x Mk3 Sleepers
-----------------------------
1 x Mk2 Seated [Aberdeen]
1 x Mk2 Lounge
1 x Mk3 Sleeper (D)
3 (or 2) x Mk3 Sleepers
-----------------------------
1 (or 2) x Mk3 Sleepers [Fort William*]
1 x Mk3 Sleeper (D)
-----------------------------
1 x Loco [Edinburgh]

The Southbound sleeper is the exact same formation. The potions from Aberdeen and Fort William equate to 8 on arrival at Euston, so form the Inverness portion Northbound.

*1 x Mk2 Lounge & 1 x Mk2 Seated coupled (N/B) and uncoupled (S/B) at Edinburgh
(D) = Accessible berth & Accessible toilet

It must have changed relatively recently then. It certainly used to be a 4/2 split, except in peak tourist season when it was 3/3.

In any case, it makes little practical difference to the formation I posted. The order is Inverness at the back, Aberdeen in the middle and Fort William at the front.


Usual Highlander formation from Euston below.


Buffers

Inverness set

Coach A (seated)

Inverness Lounge

Coach B (1st)

Coach C (1st)

Coach D (1st)

Coach E (std)

Coach F (std)

Coach G (std)

------------------------

Aberdeen Set

Coach H (seated)

Aberdeen lounge

Coach J (1st)

Coach M (std)

Coach N (std)

------------------------

Fort William set

Coach Z (std)

Coach Y (std)

Coach W (1st)

Loco
 
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TimboM

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Usual Highlander formation from Euston below.

[.......]

------------------------

Aberdeen Set

Coach H (seated)

Aberdeen lounge

Coach J (1st)

Coach M (std)

Coach N (std)

------------------------

Fort William set

Coach Z (std)

Coach Y (std)

Coach W (1st)

Loco

Are there not sometimes seasonal variations between how many sleeper cars go to FW vs Aberdeen? e.g. is it sometimes 4 to FW and 2 to Aberdeen (say at height of the tourist season) or always 3 and 3?
 

GW43125

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Are there not sometimes seasonal variations between how many sleeper cars go to FW vs Aberdeen? e.g. is it sometimes 4 to FW and 2 to Aberdeen (say at height of the tourist season) or always 3 and 3?

I've seen 2*FW and 4*ABD but never the other 2&4. I doubt the loadings would warrant it.
 

BRX

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A bit surprising that the Inverness portion is so much larger than the Aberdeen. You'd think there might be more traffic from Aberdeen with it being the larger city, and all the oil people on shift work.
 

marks87

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A bit surprising that the Inverness portion is so much larger than the Aberdeen. You'd think there might be more traffic from Aberdeen with it being the larger city, and all the oil people on shift work.

Historically, Inverness was a full half-set because that's where the heavy maintenance was done when part of the ScotRail franchise. The sets were diagrammed such that every half-set could visit Inverness every 8 days or so.

Now that maintenance has moved to Polmadie, we might see more flexibility.
 

47271

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A bit surprising that the Inverness portion is so much larger than the Aberdeen. You'd think there might be more traffic from Aberdeen with it being the larger city, and all the oil people on shift work.
There's way more demand on the Inverness. Very little tourist traffic to Aberdeen, plus Inverness has fewer daytime train and flight options to choose from.
 

paul1609

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I don't think that is quite accurate to be fair.
Me neither, I only really use the west highland or lowland sleepers but it is nearly always possible to get a berth at short notice. The west highland is sometimes sold out for 1st but the alternative to/from Glasgow Central is pretty lightly loaded in my experiences.
 

Scotrail84

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A bit surprising that the Inverness portion is so much larger than the Aberdeen. You'd think there might be more traffic from Aberdeen with it being the larger city, and all the oil people on shift work.

Inverness is always busier than the Aberdeen, except maybe when the golf is on at St Andrews or Carnoustie.
 

Scotrail84

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Are there not sometimes seasonal variations between how many sleeper cars go to FW vs Aberdeen? e.g. is it sometimes 4 to FW and 2 to Aberdeen (say at height of the tourist season) or always 3 and 3?

Its been 3 and 3 for the last year or so, sometimes 2 and 2 when coaches are removed for maintenance.
 

Bald Rick

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A bit surprising that the Inverness portion is so much larger than the Aberdeen. You'd think there might be more traffic from Aberdeen with it being the larger city, and all the oil people on shift work.

The oil people tend to be earning decent money, and will therefore be more likely to be happy to pay extra for hotels and flights than rolling around on a 'sleeper'.

Perhaps more importantly, one assumes that most of the choppers to / from the rigs go out of Aberdeen airport. With a quick change, if you arrive at ABZ from the rig in the evening at any time before 1930 you can be at Heathrow or Gatwick before the sleeper has got to Montrose. And if you arrive after 2100 you won't make the sleeper.
 

paul1609

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The oil people tend to be earning decent money, and will therefore be more likely to be happy to pay extra for hotels and flights than rolling around on a 'sleeper'.

Perhaps more importantly, one assumes that most of the choppers to / from the rigs go out of Aberdeen airport. With a quick change, if you arrive at ABZ from the rig in the evening at any time before 1930 you can be at Heathrow or Gatwick before the sleeper has got to Montrose. And if you arrive after 2100 you won't make the sleeper.
If you've been on an oil rig for 3 weeks you want to get home as quickly as possible, a night on a sleeper dumping you in Central London at 7 in the morning is far from ideal.
Fact is that currently flights are much cheaper than a single cabin sleeper fare even booked at the last minute.
Thats why I do my weekly commute from Kent to Garelochead with easyjet rather than Serco.
 

TimboM

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Looks like 86401 is hot-footing it from Glasgow to Waverley on a VSTP path having done the Glasgow Lowlander ECS working. Does this mean it's needed last minute to work the Southbound Highlander (again)?

I believe 90043 and 92023 are already at Waverley - I would have thought due to work the EDB portion and Highlander (EDB-EUS) respectively, so not sure if one of these has failed?
 
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47271

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Fact is that currently flights are much cheaper than a single cabin sleeper fare even booked at the last minute.

That may be so, and likewise for oil workers inbound to ABZ, I'd do the same myself if I were them, but it's very much a matter of choice depending on when and where you're going on arrival in the London area, how you perceive your costs, and convenience.

I only mention it because Garelochead (depart at a very convenient 2310 or so!) is an unexpected place to actively avoid the sleeper from, I suspect that it's because you work there and live down south well away from central London?

Conversely, few of us with home lives in Strathspey or Perthshire, or up and down the Highland Main Line generally and working in the middle of London regularly would waste time with flying. Messing around with driving miles to an airport at stupid o'clock, whether Edinburgh, Inverness or Glasgow, shelling out for parking, queuing at security, barging onto Easyjet before dawn with 130 miserable sociopaths, and then enduring whatever overpriced 'Express' takes us in from a horrible airport outside the M25. It's a dismal experience and not as cheap as it looks once you've totted up all of the peripheral costs.

Instead boarding the sleeper at what would be bedtime anyway, a quick Glenfiddich, breakfast at 7, be up and be at The Strand at 8am for £140 on Flexipass is a no brainer.

Different priorities, and maybe this strong demand from intermediate stations is partly why the Inverness section does so well. Each to their own. :)
 
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marks87

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Looks like 86401 is hot-footing it from Glasgow to Waverley on a VSTP path having done the Glasgow Lowlander ECS working. Does this mean it's needed last minute to work the Southbound Highlander (again)?

I believe 90043 and 92023 are already at Waverley - I would have thought due to work the EBN portion and Highlander (EBN-EUS) respectively, so not sure if one of these has failed?

Why would the sleeper be running from Eastbourne? ;)
 

Clansman

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That may be so, and likewise for oil workers inbound to ABZ, I'd do the same myself if I were them, but it's very much a matter of choice depending on when and where you're going on arrival in the London area, how you perceive your costs, and convenience.

I only mention it because Garelochead (depart at a very convenient 2310 or so!) is an unexpected place to actively avoid the sleeper from, I suspect that it's because you work there and live down south well away from central London?

Conversely, few of us with home lives in Strathspey or Perthshire, or up and down the Highland Main Line generally and working in the middle of London regularly would waste time with flying. Messing around with driving miles to an airport at stupid o'clock, whether Edinburgh, Inverness or Glasgow, shelling out for parking, queuing at security, barging onto Easyjet before dawn with 130 miserable sociopaths, and then enduring whatever overpriced 'Express' takes us in from a horrible airport outside the M25. It's a dismal experience and not as cheap as it looks once you've totted up all of the peripheral costs.

Instead boarding the sleeper at what would be bedtime anyway, a quick Glenfiddich, breakfast at 7, be up and be at The Strand at 8am for £140 on Flexipass is a no brainer.

Different priorities, and maybe this strong demand from intermediate stations is partly why the Inverness section does so well. Each to their own. :)

Agree with you 100% here. You've hit the nail on the head there
 
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Scotrail84

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Looks like 86401 is hot-footing it from Glasgow to Waverley on a VSTP path having done the Glasgow Lowlander ECS working. Does this mean it's needed last minute to work the Southbound Highlander (again)?

I believe 90043 and 92023 are already at Waverley - I would have thought due to work the EDB portion and Highlander (EDB-EUS) respectively, so not sure if one of these has failed?

The 86 is taking a duff coach to polmadie
 

paul1609

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That may be so, and likewise for oil workers inbound to ABZ, I'd do the same myself if I were them, but it's very much a matter of choice depending on when and where you're going on arrival in the London area, how you perceive your costs, and convenience.

I only mention it because Garelochead (depart at a very convenient 2310 or so!) is an unexpected place to actively avoid the sleeper from, I suspect that it's because you work there and live down south well away from central London?

Conversely, few of us with home lives in Strathspey or Perthshire, or up and down the Highland Main Line generally and working in the middle of London regularly would waste time with flying. Messing around with driving miles to an airport at stupid o'clock, whether Edinburgh, Inverness or Glasgow, shelling out for parking, queuing at security, barging onto Easyjet before dawn with 130 miserable sociopaths, and then enduring whatever overpriced 'Express' takes us in from a horrible airport outside the M25. It's a dismal experience and not as cheap as it looks once you've totted up all of the peripheral costs.

Instead boarding the sleeper at what would be bedtime anyway, a quick Glenfiddich, breakfast at 7, be up and be at The Strand at 8am for £140 on Flexipass is a no brainer.

Different priorities, and maybe this strong demand from intermediate stations is partly why the Inverness section does so well. Each to their own. :)

Yeah you are right I live in Wittersham, Kent ( overlooking top end of Romney Marsh) and work in Garelochead.
In terms of peripheral costs I use public transport to get to Glasgow Airport=train to Dalmuir and then 757 bus to Glasgow Airport about £15 return.
Security is not really an issue, the worse Ive had this year was probably 10 mins wait at Glasgow normally I just walk straight through.
Return flight on Easyjet would be £80 if I booked it now for tomorrow.
I hire a car from Stanstead for about £12 a day. Petrol for the journey including any running around at the weekend is usually £30 max.
So the total for the weekend is about £170
The Sleeper Alternative would be 2 flexipass tickets at £280 an Anytime single to Rye plusbus £37.70 and a Super Off peak back to St Pancras £35.50
so £350 for a weekend with one less night in my own bed its a no brainer really.
 

BRX

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Yeah you are right I live in Wittersham, Kent ( overlooking top end of Romney Marsh) and work in Garelochead.
In terms of peripheral costs I use public transport to get to Glasgow Airport=train to Dalmuir and then 757 bus to Glasgow Airport about £15 return.
Security is not really an issue, the worse Ive had this year was probably 10 mins wait at Glasgow normally I just walk straight through.
Return flight on Easyjet would be £80 if I booked it now for tomorrow.
I hire a car from Stanstead for about £12 a day. Petrol for the journey including any running around at the weekend is usually £30 max.
So the total for the weekend is about £170
The Sleeper Alternative would be 2 flexipass tickets at £280 an Anytime single to Rye plusbus £37.70 and a Super Off peak back to St Pancras £35.50
so £350 for a weekend with one less night in my own bed its a no brainer really.

Not going to argue about what works best for you personally.

But that whole journey must take 6 or 7 hours at the best of times, so it must be that you are able to leave work mid afternoon and arrive at work midday. For someone not able to do this, the calculation would be different.

It would also of course be different if your commute was in the other direction and you wanted to maximise your time in scotland rather than kent.
 

BRX

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That may be so, and likewise for oil workers inbound to ABZ, I'd do the same myself if I were them, but it's very much a matter of choice depending on when and where you're going on arrival in the London area, how you perceive your costs, and convenience.

I only mention it because Garelochead (depart at a very convenient 2310 or so!) is an unexpected place to actively avoid the sleeper from, I suspect that it's because you work there and live down south well away from central London?

Conversely, few of us with home lives in Strathspey or Perthshire, or up and down the Highland Main Line generally and working in the middle of London regularly would waste time with flying. Messing around with driving miles to an airport at stupid o'clock, whether Edinburgh, Inverness or Glasgow, shelling out for parking, queuing at security, barging onto Easyjet before dawn with 130 miserable sociopaths, and then enduring whatever overpriced 'Express' takes us in from a horrible airport outside the M25. It's a dismal experience and not as cheap as it looks once you've totted up all of the peripheral costs.

Instead boarding the sleeper at what would be bedtime anyway, a quick Glenfiddich, breakfast at 7, be up and be at The Strand at 8am for £140 on Flexipass is a no brainer.

Different priorities, and maybe this strong demand from intermediate stations is partly why the Inverness section does so well. Each to their own. :)

I'd have thought that the population of intermediate towns south of Aberdeen would be much greater than those on the Inverness line, and the same reasons would apply to demand from those places.

I realise that Aberdeen has more alternatives in the form of direct day trains and flights... but this also is an indication of a bigger market that the Aberdeen sleeper could be drawing from.

Given that the population of Aberdeen is about 3 times greater than Inverness (and figures for number of people using each city's train station and airport reflect this - around 3 times as many) and that the population served when taking into account intermediate stops must be more than 3 times as great.... I still find it a little surprising that the Inverness portion is twice the size of the Aberdeen one. I only ever use the Fort William and Inverness sleepers...and have always assumed the Aberdeen one to be busier.
 
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