Caledonian Sleeper Pricing

[smalle]

I am considering taking the sleeper from London to Glasgow on May 28th.

Looking at the pricing on the Scotrail site for a standard class shared berth, I see GBP 145.80 (107.80 off-peak single + 38 "standard shared supplement"). On the other hand a first class return ticket (with bed icon) for the same train is priced at GBP 118.50 (including the return leg).

Am I missing something here? I assume I can buy the return ticket and simply not use the return leg? Or could I get the return leg refunded?

 

[Ascot]

There's 3 types of ticket routes for the Sleeper.

Any Permitted (this is your basic ticket, travel on any service Virgin, NXEC or ScotRail, no reservations/charges included and you need to buy them [double the price between a single and a return])

Route Cal Sleeper (this is a ScotRail only ticket and it INCLUDES a berth supplement charge, these are cheaper than the Any Permitted as you can only use ScotRail [only a few £10s between a single and a return] )

Route ScotRail (this is a basic ticket but you can only travel on ScotRail services, no reservations/charges are included and you have to buy them separately [only a few £10s between a single and a return])

It works out cheaper to buy Route Cal Sleeper if your just travelling Sleeper as with Any permitted you get the flex to travel on any day/night service and you need to buy the berth reservation as well.

Your Standard class single is the full Any Permitted, and your "bed icon" ticket is the Cal Sleeper ticket. By the way, £118.50 doesn't sound right for an First Open Return with a bed, is that the right fare?

 

[spoony]

I got a £29 single with a bed. I cant wait

 

[jopsuk]

I don't think you'd get very far trying to get a refund, but you can certainly use just the outbound section of a retrn ticket; you won't be "blacklisted" or anything like that for not using the return. As for the price difference, I'm gussing it's to do with quotas. On a 1st class ticket you'll get a berth to yourself. The upper bunk will be folded up and locked away.

 

[smalle]

Thanks for the answers, that cleared up some of the confusion.

Your Standard class single is the full Any Permitted, and your "bed icon" ticket is the Cal Sleeper ticket. By the way, £118.50 doesn't sound right for an First Open Return with a bed, is that the right fare?

It's a "normal" return (not an Open Return). I took a few screen shots from the booking site: http://users.telenet.be/smalle/train/. I don't have much experience booking train tickets in the UK, but I'm quite astonished at how complicated it is compared to booking a flight.

 

[northernbored]

wow thats cheap as a semi walk up ticket

 

[Ascot]

Quite a few are asking about Caledonian Sleeper fares so i'll post this up

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/7551/calsleeperfares.jpg (valid till May, check for advances as they come up really cheap)

Spot the typo you get a cookie

 

[spoony]

Are there no bargin berths left for your dates?

 

[90019]

Spot the typo you get a cookie

Could be the "Railcard get", which should be "Railcards get" or "Railcard gets".

 

[John @ home]

£118.50 doesn't sound right for an First Open Return with a bed, is that the right fare?

The current Fares Manual NFM 02 does not show a return fare of £118.50 for any ticket between London and Glasgow. But it does show a fare for exactly twice that amount, £237:

Origin: LONDON TERMINALS
Destination: GLASGOW CEN/QST
Route: CAL SLEEPER
Ticket Type: SPB - SLEEPER 1ST RTN
Adult Price: GBP 237.00
Restrictions: No restriction text.

It seems likely to me that Scotrail are offering the £237 return ticket but that poor implementation of the booking engine makes it seem that a return is available for half that price. It may well be that the software won't let you complete the purchase unless you buy outward and return legs at the same time.

If I'm right, the cheapest sleepers currently available for a single journey from London to Glasgow on 28 May are £161 First Class, ie. a solo compartment, and £145.80 [£107.80 + £38] Standard, ie. sharing a compartment. smalle, note that an Off Peak Single is £107.80 but an Off Peak Return is £108.80 (Yes - I know the UK rail fares system is mad!). So if you intend to return from Glasgow to London by 27 June buy an Off Peak Return and get the trip back, by day train or night train, for £1!

I'm surprised that I can't get the ScotRail site to offer me any Advance sleeper fares at the moment. Perhaps there's a fault. It might be worth waiting a couple of days to see if the cheaper Advance fares re-appear.

 

[smalle]

Thanks everyone for the answers. I will check again in a few days and if that doesn't work, I'll probably end up booking a flight again...

 

[jon0844]

I know flying isn't always cheap or convenient, but I can say one thing; it's a damn sight easier to work out what you're going to pay than decoding that matrix.

How the hell is Joe Public going to understand that, or even attempt to?!

 

[clagmonster]

The matrix is not what the public will see, it is an extract from a program called Avantix traveller. The public will see something far simpler.

 

[Death]

Interesting how loads of people are asking about Caledonian Sleeper runs...Is it me, or will the end rush for cheaper ALRs mean that sleepers up until the new timetable will all be fully booked-up when I try and book mine? hock:ad:
(Oh well, there's always space in the cab, gangways, spare cabins etc...And given the fact that ALRs can't be booked until three days before travel, they should make some form of provision for ALR users as sleepers are the logical way of doing an overnighter. I'll probabally pack my Chainsaw and a couple of sharp 'n' nasty Blades just in case, though... )

Spot the typo you get a cookie

Could be the "Railcard get", which should be "Railcards get" or "Railcard gets".

Could be, could be...But Ascot'll answer thy response for certain. The Cookie has already been delivered to thy computer!

I know flying isn't always cheap or convenient, but I can say one thing; it's a damn sight easier to work out what you're going to pay than decoding that matrix.

I presume ye havn't ever tried estimating the true cost of a Ryanair flight from the prices displayed in their promotional material, then? hock:

How the hell is Joe Public going to understand that, or even attempt to?!

They won't - No matter what kind of Mathmatics degree or other skills they may possess. I'd suggest that pricing methods on the railway have been deliberateley made as complicated and illogical as possible to prevent passengers from finding the cheapest fares for their journey, eventually forcing them to go for a standard open return just because they don't want to spend another 40 hours probing the NR website! :roll:
(That's my own personal opinion there...Although I'm sure most would agree with me that the new "simplified" fares aren't... )

The matrix is not what the public will see, it is an extract from a program called Avantix traveller. The public will see something far simpler.

I'm sure that Avantix Traveller is what I'm running here for my fares info as well, but I've never seen a display like that in my installation. What kind of version are ye running?

 

[jon0844]

The matrix is not what the public will see, it is an extract from a program called Avantix traveller. The public will see something far simpler.

I understand that, but there are still too many variables. That matrix could actually be considered by some to be an easier way of explaining each combination, but when you book a flight it's date/time and class - job done. Admittedly, the headline prices on a website (e.g. Ryanair) are to be taken with a pinch of salt - but when you go to the actual booking enquiry pages - either Ryanair, BA or a third party best-deal website, it's fairly straight forward. It only gets fiddly if you need to book multiple legs, hotels etc.

Unless you book the ticket through a travel agent, I'd consider it to be far too complicated for most people. In fact, they'd probably continue to question whether they got the best deal, and that alone would put people off.

Another thing that I consider to be far too fiddly is when trying to look at ferry services and the prices for taking a car, different cabins (and not knowing the exact differences between them) etc. With so many private operators, there's often no easy way to check the best prices - or even the best routes! I suppose the railway industry can be happy that it's slightly better than going by boat.

 

[Ascot]

It's self made Excel spreadsheet. Just use the Route Cal Sleeper column as the others are for seated or people who haven't got a clue what train they will end up on. Advance tickets aren't included as they have to be bought in advance anyway. There's Cal Sleeper advance and Route Scotrail advance. Cal Sleeper has included berth, ScotRail is for seated only.

 

[glynn80]

I understand that, but there are still too many variables. That matrix could actually be considered by some to be an easier way of explaining each combination, but when you book a flight it's date/time and class - job done. Admittedly, the headline prices on a website (e.g. Ryanair) are to be taken with a pinch of salt - but when you go to the actual booking enquiry pages - either Ryanair, BA or a third party best-deal website, it's fairly straight forward. It only gets fiddly if you need to book multiple legs, hotels etc.

There are tickets that fulfill that criteria on the National Rail network. The Advance tickets are booking a train for a particular date and time and in a particular class and that is it. Those tickets are however extremely inflexible and give passengers practically no other options if they have missed their booked train service.

With increasingly frequent mainlines it would be a terrible move to shift towards an airline style fixed ticketing system as that would really defeat the object of a turn up and go railway.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

I've been looking at sleeper fares for a possible Fort Bill jaunt. You can only book Sleeper fares online via Scotrail's website, and they don't offer the sleeper only fares. Anyone have an idea what price I'd get charged for Euston - Fort Bill for an adult and a child with a Family Railcard?

 

[jon0844]

I agree that we never want to get rid of the 'turn up and go' system, which should separate trains with planes - but on the Intercity routes, it's already like the airline system anyway. Turn up and get a ticket on the day and you better be rather well off! We now have a railway system where you need to book ahead, just like flying.

I think what we need, well the whole country needs, is a radical overhaul of ticketing and the way things are priced. In Australia, the zones outside of the city extended for miles - meaning a trip to say Cambridge or Peterborough, and the same distance east/south/west would be a single ticket cost - or even further.

Now, I realise things would get confusing with cross overs from other big cities and journeys inbetween - but that's just one idea and possibility. I am sure people have other ideas - but doubt many would keep things as they are today.

We'd also need to consider whether the turn up and go prices become more regulated to stop them being so expensive - and whether individual operators could set rates for their specific trains etc. That then brings into question the whole way of operating the railway, including how the current revenues get split between operators and how this influences the routes that run.

Although I wouldn't renationalise the railway straight away, or possibly at all, I'd really like to move towards a single national railway network - with private operators just running routes. One livery, organised ticket pricing and a centrally managed operation - like London Buses and possibly what they're trying to do in Scotland?

Wishful thinking perhaps - but the current system is too complicated and even the simplification a year or so ago hasn't really changed anything. In fact, it's made some tickets even more illogical and confusing!

 

[glynn80]

I agree that we never want to get rid of the 'turn up and go' system, which should separate trains with planes - but on the Intercity routes, it's already like the airline system anyway. Turn up and get a ticket on the day and you better be rather well off! We now have a railway system where you need to book ahead, just like flying.

While this may be the case in the Peak periods, in the Off Peak times this often isn't the case. Operators are required by government to offer a "high-value product" (the old style Saver), valid on any service outside a pre-defined peak, delivered relatively cheaply. But obviously this imposes large jumps in fare around period boundaries with the majority of peak fares being unregulated.

I think what we need, well the whole country needs, is a radical overhaul of ticketing and the way things are priced. In Australia, the zones outside of the city extended for miles - meaning a trip to say Cambridge or Peterborough, and the same distance east/south/west would be a single ticket cost - or even further.

This method of pricing based on distance is very outdated. Even British Rail before privitisation realised reform was necessary and moved towards a more market based system whereby those lines with higher levels of usage would incur a higher price.

 

[jon0844]

Is it that outdated, or simply a poor way to manage demand and/or usage in a busy city like London and the suburbs? I concur that Brisbane probably has a much lower population, although they had very long trains that had seating like underground trains in many carriages - so plenty of standing room for peak demand*. Sydney meanwhile had 8-car double decker trains, so were also easily capable of transporting lots of people - although dwell times may be bad and I hear they're replacing them with single decker trains possibly.

Anyway, I am sure one day we'll see a major overhaul - especially when any smartcard based payment system goes nationwide, or even Europewide. I was most impressed how they've managed in Hong Kong to allow their Octopus cards to be used for small payments in nearly every shop and even vending machines. I know they wanted to do the same with Oyster cards, but fell foul of banking regulations. Now we have Visa Pay-wave and the like, with most merchants in London having ditched their machines.

I guess we don't like change - but, like the insurance ad says, change happens... !

* and one carriage with around 8-10 wheelchair bays - pretty much the whole length of the train carriage - with fold down seats all along behind them! What do we get as a token gesture? 1 or 2 per train?

 

[clagmonster]

I've been looking at sleeper fares for a possible Fort Bill jaunt. You can only book Sleeper fares online via Scotrail's website, and they don't offer the sleeper only fares. Anyone have an idea what price I'd get charged for Euston - Fort Bill for an adult and a child with a Family Railcard?

All prices below are for the two of you, and I have assumed you want berths.
£208.60 single, £280 return for the walk up ticket.
There are also advance single tickets priced at £47.30 and £66.30.
There are also Bargain berths.

 

[glynn80]

Is it that outdated, or simply a poor way to manage demand and/or usage in a busy city like London and the suburbs? I concur that Brisbane probably has a much lower population, although they had very long trains that had seating like underground trains in many carriages - so plenty of standing room for peak demand*. Sydney meanwhile had 8-car double decker trains, so were also easily capable of transporting lots of people - although dwell times may be bad and I hear they're replacing them with single decker trains possibly.

You are correct in that it is a very poor way to manage demand and that is the major reason it has become an outdated pricing structure to work with.

With regard to your Australia observations, Brisbane with a population of just under 2 million pales in comparison to the commuting power of the Greater London area's 7.5 million population (with many more commuting from a much greater distance). So perhaps the distance pricing model works better/fairer for a transport infrastructure that doesn't suffer from overcrowding issues but for the UK it has been recognised for a long time now that it is not right for us.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the answers, that cleared up some of the confusion.


It's a "normal" return (not an Open Return). I took a few screen shots from the booking site: http://users.telenet.be/smalle/train/. I don't have much experience booking train tickets in the UK, but I'm quite astonished at how complicated it is compared to booking a flight.

That is clearly showing a return at £118.50.

 

[Sleepy]

The screen shot is a First Class Scotrail Return ticket which includes berth and also Zone 1/2 and catering voucher. Code = SPB for those with Advantix. The price appears wrong, child ticket price perhaps or booking engine error as stated earlier ?

 

[RochdalePioneers]

All prices below are for the two of you, and I have assumed you want berths.
£208.60 single, £280 return for the walk up ticket.
There are also advance single tickets priced at £47.30 and £66.30.
There are also Bargain berths.

Thanks for that. I can find no fares at all online aside from normal tickets that you need to pay a supplement on. No advance singles on any day to any destination, and no Route Cal Sleeper inclusive fares. Where do I look?

 

[clagmonster]

This information was take from Avantix traveller.
Having looked on the Scotrail site, it tells me when I try to book tickets that as I have asked for a child ticket, I need to telephone them. What I would do is go down to a booking office, and try to do it there, rather than do it over the telephone. The tickets I have quoted are standard open single/return, route 'Cal sleeper'. It may be cheaper to get an any permitted saver, together with the appropriate supplements.

 

[smalle]

Just to let you all know the outcome of the Scotrail story. I contacted Scotrail Customer Relations who told me that there would be no more Advance tickets because the quota for that train was already full.

I found £148 seriously overpriced for a train ticket (I can go sleep in a more comfortable hotel bed for that price), so I made alternative travel arrangements on Monday. And what do I see today? Advance Single tickets (berth in shared cabin) available again at £52.

O well, better luck next time, I guess.