Caledonian Sleeper

[BRX]

It'll be whatever the issues have been with the Lowlander, but multiplied.

For example the northbound lowlander involves one coaching stock split and one loco attachment. So, broadly, two opportunities for something not to work.

The Highlander northbound involves two coaching stock splits, one coaching stock attachment and three loco attachments. So, broadly, six opportunities for something not to work.

Of course if most of the bugs have been ironed out already on the lowlander, then it should be fine. We'll see. I'm sure it'll all be fine. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Struner]

Indeed

 

[paul1609]

I’m sorry for that

Like I said, they can’t be bothered about their guests. Fawlty Towers on wheels.

In truth it's probably the right business decision by them. The tourist market on the West Highland line southbound sleeper ends when the transit across Ranoch Moor is in the dark.
From experience of doing Garlochead to London I can tell you with some confidence the sleeper goes from being full to having probably single figure passengers within about 2 weeks. There is only a very small regular customer base on this line despite using it for some years I can only tell you of 4 other regulars. There are probably more railway PRIV customers than regulars tbh.

 

[Struner]

I seem to recall that when the Mk5s were introduced onto the Lowlander in April, there were initially delays caused (if I remember correctly) by the train management system failing to recognise that the portions had split (and joined) at Carstairs[…]

You & I know that the portions have been split & joined at Carstairs for quite a while now, but the “TMS” didn’t?

 

[JModulo]

Is the general consensus that most of the teething problems with the Mk5s have been sorted out, or are a number of things still not as they should be? How reliably is the Lowlander working at present?

Generally with the train running its not as bad now, but more so with the actual on board experience. Usual issues with toilets (can't actually remember the last time I seen an accessible toilet working on the sleeper), water issues to rooms. Latest ones are room doors not working, beds falling apart and coach suspension not working. Last 3 times the shower in my room has worked, but no heat atall. Most recent trip they moved me to another room to "resolve" this, which also had no heat.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, one of the issues with the new stock has been the three way split required for the Highlander. The Lowlander only executes a two way split. Perhaps CS are getting practice in for never running the Fort William portion ever again ?.

I doubt it - the FW portion loads well these days. If you were going to can a portion (and this would be a franchise breach, so it isn't happening) the Aberdeen has the lowest loadings these days.

 

[47271]

Generally with the train running its not as bad now, but more so with the actual on board experience. Usual issues with toilets (can't actually remember the last time I seen an accessible toilet working on the sleeper), water issues to rooms. Latest ones are room doors not working, beds falling apart and coach suspension not working. Last 3 times the shower in my room has worked, but no heat atall. Most recent trip they moved me to another room to "resolve" this, which also had no heat.....

Yes, all of these technical problems will carry over onto the Highlander. But as I understand it bad internal design is one of the main lurking issues that Highlander operation will magnify, and this concern may have played a major part in the vote for industrial action.

I believe that dinner service has been a slow and difficult on the Lowlander because of poor kitchen and lounge layout, but precious few meals are ever ordered at that time of night. A busy Inverness lounge can serve 30 or 40 covers early in its journey and it's expected that the current layout won't cope with this influx. It's difficult enough as it is on the old stock.

There are other issues with the layout of pantries, not least the lack of seating for hosts, borderline unworkable on a route with multiple pickups.

The underlying issue here apparently is that the trains were designed with little or no reference to the crews working the old stock.

I'm not saying that these are the only problems, they're just the ones that will become more serious with the very different operating patterns seen on the Highlander.

 

[JModulo]

I believe that dinner service has been a slow and difficult on the Lowlander because of poor kitchen and lounge layout,

The past 5 times I've been on the lowlander, the lounge has been closed.

 

[47271]

The past 5 times I've been on the lowlander, the lounge has been closed.

Well, yes, that's something else that won't improve on the Highlander, but we have to assume that in the long term CS intend to hold on to their staff for long enough that they don't have to shut lounges more often than not...

 

[JModulo]

Well, yes, that's something else that won't improve on the Highlander, but we have to assume that in the long term CS intend to hold on to their staff for long enough that they don't have to shut lounges more often than not...

Managers / Recruitment staff don't seem to want to accept, or even deny the fact that there has been and still is issues with the MK5s.

 

[47271]

Managers / Recruitment staff don't seem to want to accept, or even deny the fact that there has been and still is issues with the MK5s.

I don't imagine they will, since they're the same managers who signed off on designs that haven't worked.

I can just about see an argument that says that industrial action could be driven by staff who are inflexible or resistant to change. But people just leaving their jobs to the extent that trains are running short staffed for months on end, that must be a difficult one to explain away without admitting that there's a problem with the stock.

 

[MrEd]

Yes, all of these technical problems will carry over onto the Highlander. But as I understand it bad internal design is one of the main lurking issues that Highlander operation will magnify, and this concern may have played a major part in the vote for industrial action.

I believe that dinner service has been a slow and difficult on the Lowlander because of poor kitchen and lounge layout, but precious few meals are ever ordered at that time of night. A busy Inverness lounge can serve 30 or 40 covers early in its journey and it's expected that the current layout won't cope with this influx. It's difficult enough as it is on the old stock.

There are other issues with the layout of pantries, not least the lack of seating for hosts, borderline unworkable on a route with multiple pickups.

The underlying issue here apparently is that the trains were designed with little or no reference to the crews working the old stock.

I'm not saying that these are the only problems, they're just the ones that will become more serious with the very different operating patterns seen on the Highlander.

This sounds like a disaster in terms of internal design. Did the designers not observe the difficulties with food service on the Highlander with the old stock, and bear this in mind when designing the Mk5s? Did the designers not understand the challenges at all? No wonder the staff are angered and have come to the very difficult decision to come out on strike; I bet the poor Highland crews do not relish working the Mk5s one bit. That said, the poor design of the lounges may be academic anyway if the staff shortages persist, meaning that they can’t open the lounge.

I’m coming rapidly to the conclusion that this definitely is not CS’ finest hour, and I must say that my enthusiasm for using the service is waning somewhat (though I am still happy to support it from time to time and to give the Mk5s a shot when they are introduced). I do think that the staff that CS do have are doing a brilliant job in the circumstances and are evidently being let down by management at the moment; I love the CS staff and feel they deserve a good deal of recognition for what they do at what is a very difficult time for the service. Clearly the Mk5s still need remedial work and CS need to find and train some more staff pronto (not that that is an easy task at all, with all the training that’s needed combined with the introduction of a new fleet).

Am I right in thinking that all the crew bases are severely short staffed at the moment? I know London and Inverness are seriously short of staff (the Inverness portion lounge is closed half the time these days due to staff shortages it seems, both when the train is worked by London and by Inverness crews) and Fort William might be missing a couple too, but what about the others? I am hearing that the Lowlander lounges are often closed so perhaps those bases are affected too?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't imagine they will, since they're the same managers who signed off on designs that haven't worked.

I can just about see an argument that says that industrial action could be driven by staff who are inflexible or resistant to change. But people just leaving their jobs to the extent that trains are running short staffed for months on end, that must be a difficult one to explain away without admitting that there's a problem with the stock.

My belief is that, after change, if new/replacement staff walk then there must be a problem. I can believe the new design is not realistic beyond what the customer sees (sleeps in). For example, at the site where I work, a new factory building has been built. It has only one shower and that has been put in with the disabled toilet. The ladies and gents toilets are smaller than in the other buildings. The cleaners cupboard is too small to keep equipment and stock in - no more than a sink with an inward opening door that leaves no floor space for anything else !. It is all built down to a price. In the case of the Caledonian sleeper it is then charged out at a rather different price it seems !.

 

[MrEd]

I don't imagine they will, since they're the same managers who signed off on designs that haven't worked.

I can just about see an argument that says that industrial action could be driven by staff who are inflexible or resistant to change. But people just leaving their jobs to the extent that trains are running short staffed for months on end, that must be a difficult one to explain away without admitting that there's a problem with the stock.

I have every sympathy for the striking staff, a number of whom I know personally. They have quite literally been pushed to breaking point, and those that are striking seem to be the brave few who haven’t handed in their notices altogether. The staff that I know are of the view that management simply do not listen to their concerns nor take them seriously, and that the policies and business model developed by management are not achievable in practice. The sleeper staff are certainly not militant in any way, and only strike when the situation really is dire. I hope that like the December 2015 industrial action, this might make CS management wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This sounds like a disaster in terms of internal design. Did the designers not observe the difficulties with food service on the Highlander with the old stock, and bear this in mind when designing the Mk5s? Did the designers not understand the challenges at all? No wonder the staff are angered and have come to the very difficult decision to come out on strike; I bet the poor Highland crews do not relish working the Mk5s one bit. That said, the poor design of the lounges may be academic anyway if the staff shortages persist, meaning that they can’t open the lounge.

I’m coming rapidly to the conclusion that this definitely is not CS’ finest hour, and I must say that my enthusiasm for using the service is waning somewhat (though I am still happy to support it from time to time and to give the Mk5s a shot when they are introduced). I do think that the staff that CS do have are doing a brilliant job in the circumstances and are evidently being let down by management at the moment; I love the CS staff and feel they deserve a good deal of recognition for what they do at what is a very difficult time for the service. Clearly the Mk5s still need remedial work and CS need to find and train some more staff pronto (not that that is an easy task at all, with all the training that’s needed combined with the introduction of a new fleet).

Am I right in thinking that all the crew bases are severely short staffed at the moment? I know London and Inverness are seriously short of staff (the Inverness portion lounge is closed half the time these days due to staff shortages it seems, both when the train is worked by London and by Inverness crews) and Fort William might be missing a couple too, but what about the others? I am hearing that the Lowlander lounges are often closed so perhaps those bases are affected too?

I have seen similar in the IT/IS world. A new computer system is specified with all the extra bells and whistles management can dream of. But no one actually bothers to consider what the existing system does and how to specify that in the new system. I have had the job of altering a new system to work the way the old system did - not very easy as the data structure was not suitable. I doubt the coaches can be easily adapted. Considering the practicalities of how something works is rather boring compared to making it look sexy I am afraid.

 

[haggishunter]

My belief is that, after change, if new/replacement staff walk then there must be a problem.

There’s plenty of businesses in serious staffing problems in the Highlands. Rural businesses that have lost some staff because they’ve left the UK over Brexit and that’s an accelerating problem - then the knock on effect that local staff are leaving less convenient / more remote jobs to take on other jobs vacated by EU citizens. Highland Scotland needs Brexit like a hole in the head!

 

[MrEd]

There’s plenty of businesses in serious staffing problems in the Highlands. Rural businesses that have lost some staff because they’ve left the UK over Brexit and that’s an accelerating problem - then the knock on effect that local staff are leaving less convenient / more remote jobs to take on other jobs vacated by EU citizens. Highland Scotland needs Brexit like a hole in the head!

There is a lot of truth in what you say, and I agree entirely with your last point. However, I do not believe that the current political situation can explain the extreme haste with which a good number of staff (in London as well as in Inverness and the highlands) have left their jobs at CS, which are not badly paid compared with other jobs in hospitality/non-safety-critical jobs on the railway. Admittedly a number of sleeper hosts saw the job simply as a stepping stone to becoming a guard, either with CS, an Intercity TOC or with Scotrail (the latter two roles meaning an end to night shifts and lodging turns as well as better pay with a safety critical grade), and were never going to stick around for long once these better opportunities became available in the industry, but many more this year have left the industry altogether. I cannot help thinking that working on the trains as a customer-facing host/team leader is not very pleasant at the moment.

 

[awsnews]

This sounds like a disaster in terms of internal design. Did the designers not observe the difficulties with food service on the Highlander with the old stock, and bear this in mind when designing the Mk5s? Did the designers not understand the challenges at all? No wonder the staff are angered and have come to the very difficult decision to come out on strike; I bet the poor Highland crews do not relish working the Mk5s one bit. That said, the poor design of the lounges may be academic anyway if the staff shortages persist, meaning that they can’t open the lounge.

Quite often the issue is nothing to do with the designers at all, whist I haven't had experience of procument in the rail industry I have enough in large engineering projects to know that these issues are normally traceable back to the original requirements and resultant specifications which the build was contracted against. I haven't seen anything as to who wrote the requirements for the new stock, i would be somewhat surprised if it was Serco themselves or even Transport Scotland but at the end of the day the designers will have no doubt produced what they were contracted against.

 

[Essexman]

Is it definite that the new stock will be starting before the 20th Oct which is the latest date CS gave me?
I've booked a trip to Fort William w/c 14th as a final run on the old stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it definite that the new stock will be starting before the 20th Oct which is the latest date CS gave me?
I've booked a trip to Fort William w/c 14th as a final run on the old stock.

I might be wrong, but wasn't it concluded upthread that it was unlikely Mk3s would run to FW again now?

 

[Antman]

There’s plenty of businesses in serious staffing problems in the Highlands. Rural businesses that have lost some staff because they’ve left the UK over Brexit and that’s an accelerating problem - then the knock on effect that local staff are leaving less convenient / more remote jobs to take on other jobs vacated by EU citizens. Highland Scotland needs Brexit like a hole in the head!

My experience has been that the lesser paid jobs are taken by non Uk immigrants or English people moving for the way of life. I was surprised just how few indigenous Scots seem to work in the tourist (at least) facing industries. I did wonder whether it was a function of being historically property owning locals stay.... the youth can’t afford to buy a home so leave for work and the void is filled by the transient immigrant population (and those moving with a fat lot of cash for lifestyle...).

I certainly saw more Poles than Scots working in any hotel I have been in... nothing wrong with it. I don’t know if that washes through all industries. But it seems the locals don’t need to or are unwilling to work in a number of lesser paid industries. Like the rest of the UK....

 

[alistairlees]

Is it definite that the new stock will be starting before the 20th Oct which is the latest date CS gave me?
I've booked a trip to Fort William w/c 14th as a final run on the old stock.

Unless things change again this should be on new stock.

 

[side effect]

Im travelling to Inverness that night and hope its the old stock as the seats on the new stock are much more uncomfortable.

 

[jfowkes]

Im travelling to Inverness that night and hope its the old stock as the seats on the new stock are much more uncomfortable.

I got the sleeper to Aberdeen last Wednesday and the seated carriage was out of service so got upgraded to a bunk - hope for that!

 

[Northhighland]

There’s plenty of businesses in serious staffing problems in the Highlands. Rural businesses that have lost some staff because they’ve left the UK over Brexit and that’s an accelerating problem - then the knock on effect that local staff are leaving less convenient / more remote jobs to take on other jobs vacated by EU citizens. Highland Scotland needs Brexit like a hole in the head!

Very accurate post. In reality the Highland's also suffers from Inverness continually growing and sucking people from the rest of the Highland's.

Brexit is a disaster for this part of the world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Brexit is a disaster for this part of the world.

And all the other parts of it too

 

[side effect]

I got the sleeper to Aberdeen last Wednesday and the seated carriage was out of service so got upgraded to a bunk - hope for that!

I just mentioned that to my son, and he said no way. Im not bothered as i will have some sleeping pills as usual.

 

[TimboM]

Is it definite that the new stock will be starting before the 20th Oct which is the latest date CS gave me?
I've booked a trip to Fort William w/c 14th as a final run on the old stock.

You'll be on the Mk5s then...
The last Mk3s/Mk2s left Fort Bill last Friday night on 1B01 to Edinburgh.

 

[bigmoose]

The Lowlander has improved throughout the year, in my experience. Last night’s journey to Euston arrived early (0630), the aircon worked to provide good cooling (though with a couple of rises in temperature during the night) and the shower was properly hot this morning. Lounge car was open too. My 4th journey on the new stock and my best yet. (I was on the inaugural run.)

Well done to the staff on board and the maintenance teams.

 

[VEP3417]

i always wanted to go on the sleeper train to scotland but if theyve got rid of the mk2/3 coaches than that takes some of the interest out of it for me, have they got rid completely or just some sets?