Caledonian Sleeper

[MrEd]

For joiners at Crewe for Fort William, do they have a chance for a drink in the lounge?

Yes, absolutely (assuming there is a working lounge car in the train, of course). Last time I travelled from Crewe to Fort William, I had a full meal of haggis, neeps and tatties (I’d not had much to eat that day and hadn’t managed to get any dinner beforehand) followed by a cheesecake along with a few drinks. A couple of other passengers sat down and ordered soup and sandwiches. On other occasions when I’ve travelled from London but still been in the lounge at Crewe, I’ve noticed passengers join at Crewe and be served tea and sandwiches (or whatever they want- though bear in mind that on busy nights, many menu items may be sold out) in the lounge. The attendants seem very happy to serve passengers with whatever they want until the train gets to Preston just before 1am, which from experience is the normal chucking-out time (to allow the attendant time to perform the stock-check and cash up before the Edinburgh call, from which point the lounge needs set up for breakfast).

 

[MrEd]

The lounge chucks out about 0100 doesn't it?

Yes, I’m sure (from my own experience) that that’s right. There are instances (admittedly from First Group days) of stag parties/other excitable Friday night groups staying in the lounge all the way from London to Stirling on the Inverness run, but most crews will (understandably) want you to finish your drink, pay up and leave the lounge fairly promptly around Preston (around 1am if on time). Certainly when I’ve had some late nights in there recently, I (and the other folk left in there) have been told to pay and vacate at about 00.50, on the approach to Preston.

 

[theironroad]

You not posting would be a heavy loss to this thread, Bletchleyite didn't attack you personally but instead was commenting on the design concept of the new Mk5 configs.
As for others they may not fully understand the complexities of the sleeper set with regards to the new stock and it's operation and the connectivity and it's internal IT and electrical framework then if i were you i would leave them to speculate to themselves.

I'm not totally sure what happened to annoy Scotrail84 but I'd agree that his not posting would be a loss.

 

[185143]

For joiners at Crewe for Fort William, do they have a chance for a drink in the lounge?

I boarded at Crewe recently, the lounge certainly were still serving but had run out of Haggis. I therefore decided not to bother and returned to my seat.

 

[route101]

What time does the lounge shut in lowlander ?

 

[Bald Rick]

What time does the lounge shut in lowlander ?

It was still going strong at 0100 on my last trip, but then I went to bed!

 

[MrEd]

I boarded at Crewe recently, the lounge certainly were still serving but had run out of Haggis. I therefore decided not to bother and returned to my seat.

Haggis is very often the first hot dish to sell out; I was lucky to get some when I went from Crewe (although that was on a very quiet Monday night). You’ll often need to take pot luck as to what’s left later in the evening, although I think that most of the other hot meals are very nice.

 

[Mag_seven]

Haggis is very often the first hot dish to sell out

You would have thought that they would therefore stock accordingly on the basis of that experience!

 

[Mainliner]

M

What time does the lounge shut in lowlander ?

Southbound, I normally stay in it until about 2am, enjoying a Highland Park or three!

 

[MrEd]

You would have thought that they would therefore stock accordingly on the basis of that experience!

You would, but in practice they don’t. There’s often very limited stock considering how busy the Highlander lounge usually is; the intention is seemingly to be sold out of most items by 1am. I’ve sometimes heard team leaders apologising that they only carry two of each hot meal, but that was admittedly on midweek nights in low season. I like to think that that is not normal, particularly at this time of year.

Sometimes demand in the lounge can be quite unpredictable, particularly now that there is no option to pre-order a meal and the lounge is generally a free-for-all. Sometimes a lounge can be absolutely full but none of the customers want anything more than a cup of tea or a can of juice (as it was for the most part coming south from Inverness last week); at other times, the lounge can be half-full but everyone in there wants a hot dish. Demand for hot meals (for whatever reason) and the likelihood of running out of hot food always strikes me as being greater northbound out of Euston than southbound out of Inverness/Fort William on the Highlander in my experience, but perhaps my experiences aren’t that typical. Perhaps it is just too difficult to predict sales each night, and there are concerns about food wastage. It is for that reason, I think, that all breakfast items now have to be pre-ordered using the order cards. I seem to remember that for the first couple of years under Serco, a stock of bacon rolls was loaded at Edinburgh for the morning (for anyone who happened to be in the lounge and want them); now I believe that only pre-ordered items will be loaded onto the train.

 

[Mingulay]

You would, but in practice they don’t. There’s often very limited stock considering how busy the Highlander lounge usually is; the intention is seemingly to be sold out of most items by 1am. I’ve sometimes heard team leaders apologising that they only carry two of each hot meal, but that was admittedly on midweek nights in low season. I like to think that that is not normal, particularly at this time of year.

Sometimes demand in the lounge can be quite unpredictable, particularly now that there is no option to pre-order a meal and the lounge is generally a free-for-all. Sometimes a lounge can be absolutely full but none of the customers want anything more than a cup of tea or a can of juice (as it was for the most part coming south from Inverness last week); at other times, the lounge can be half-full but everyone in there wants a hot dish. Demand for hot meals (for whatever reason) and the likelihood of running out of hot food always strikes me as being greater northbound out of Euston than southbound out of Inverness/Fort William on the Highlander in my experience, but perhaps my experiences aren’t that typical. Perhaps it is just too difficult to predict sales each night, and there are concerns about food wastage. It is for that reason, I think, that all breakfast items now have to be pre-ordered using the order cards. I seem to remember that for the first couple of years under Serco, a stock of bacon rolls was loaded at Edinburgh for the morning (for anyone who happened to be in the lounge and want them); now I believe that only pre-ordered items will be loaded onto the train.

It's truly a failure of customer service and management and imagination to run out of anything in a catering environment in a known set of circumstances. You board a long haul flight with very limited space for catering but they do it day in day out. No excuse not to have ice as I often found in the bar. If new rolling stock has been designed with insufficient capacity to store and prepare enough food of every offer from start to finish then the design is a failure . Catering should be a highlight of rail travel if not essential on a long journey by train. It's such a token effort to have a lottery of choice. If it's not properly staffed and stocked it's a failure . This is not rocket science to be able to consistently deliver a catering offer. Can't say reading any of this thread would tempt me back on the sleeper now. Once again in the rail industry fails to clear the lowest of hurdles after delays and hype of better things to come. Makes you wonder if anyone in Serco or TS has any idea how to run or procure any rail service. To think Serco are trusted to run prisons! Perhaps passengers should just be locked in their cabins at the start of their journey and released at the end. Catering could be some gruel passed thru a hatch in the cell door by the on board warden . "Lights out " .

 

[Bletchleyite]

For stuff like the haggis, is it not feasible to store it frozen and therefore carry far more on board? Or are Mk2 electrical failures now so bad that they'd defrost?

 

[Essexman]

It's truly a failure of customer service and management and imagination to run out of anything in a catering environment in a known set of circumstances. You board a long haul flight with very limited space for catering but they do it day in day out. No excuse not to have ice as I often found in the bar. If new rolling stock has been designed with insufficient capacity to store and prepare enough food of every offer from start to finish then the design is a failure . Catering should be a highlight of rail travel if not essential on a long journey by train. It's such a token effort to have a lottery of choice. If it's not properly staffed and stocked it's a failure . This is not rocket science to be able to consistently deliver a catering offer. Can't say reading any of this thread would tempt me back on the sleeper now. Once again in the rail industry fails to clear the lowest of hurdles after delays and hype of better things to come. Makes you wonder if anyone in Serco or TS has any idea how to run or procure any rail service. To think Serco are trusted to run prisons! Perhaps passengers should just be locked in their cabins at the start of their journey and released at the end. Catering could be some gruel passed thru a hatch in the cell door by the on board warden . "Lights out " .

To achieve this would mean wasted food and higher prices to pay for it.
It's the same with all buffets, trolleys & restaurants on trains.

And circumstances aren't really known. Demand fluctuates day to day and not necessarily in direct relation to number of bookings on the train.

Maybe they could do better but it's not reasonable to expect the sleeper to carry enough food for every eventuality.

It could be helped if people could pre-book meal so that could be put aside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I mentioned, why can't a freezer (battery powered if necessary) be kept on the train with large stocks of the cooked stuff like haggis? They're just ready meals, freezing them would not affect the quality.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's truly a failure of customer service and management and imagination to run out of anything in a catering environment in a known set of circumstances. You board a long haul flight with very limited space for catering but they do it day in day out. No excuse not to have ice as I often found in the bar. If new rolling stock has been designed with insufficient capacity to store and prepare enough food of every offer from start to finish then the design is a failure . Catering should be a highlight of rail travel if not essential on a long journey by train. It's such a token effort to have a lottery of choice. If it's not properly staffed and stocked it's a failure . This is not rocket science to be able to consistently deliver a catering offer. Can't say reading any of this thread would tempt me back on the sleeper now. Once again in the rail industry fails to clear the lowest of hurdles after delays and hype of better things to come. Makes you wonder if anyone in Serco or TS has any idea how to run or procure any rail service. To think Serco are trusted to run prisons! Perhaps passengers should just be locked in their cabins at the start of their journey and released at the end. Catering could be some gruel passed thru a hatch in the cell door by the on board warden . "Lights out " .

Can't help but agree with most of this. I struggle to believe the quality of service is so poor but at least it confirms that the 'experience' is one that I can certainly do without.

 

[jellybaby]

You board a long haul flight with very limited space for catering but they do it day in day out. ... insufficient capacity to store and prepare enough food of every offer from start to finish

Many long haul flights I've been on run out of food options. I've frequently watched the rows in front being offered a choice of main meal but by the time they get to me there is only one option left.

 

[Mingulay]

To achieve this would mean wasted food and higher prices to pay for it.
It's the same with all buffets, trolleys & restaurants on trains.

And circumstances aren't really known. Demand fluctuates day to day and not necessarily in direct relation to number of bookings on the train.

Maybe they could do better but it's not reasonable to expect the sleeper to carry enough food for every eventuality.

It could be helped if people could pre-book meal so that could be put aside.

On the contrary, I think its entirely reasonable

Its a problem with the rail industry , but the starting point is what is " reasonable " from the customers perspective, not what is convenient or cost effective/cheapest from the operators perspective .

If you advertise a buffet car / lounge , or hotel on wheels, you are charging for it in the fare for that expectation. Its is a reasonable expectation that the passenger will get a meal of their choosing from a very limited choice and served in a short time frame. That's your staring point. So you design the rolling stock and staff it accordingly to provide that service spec. If you pay the fare and you don't get that reasonable service expectation fulfilled , you are issued with a voucher for a cash refund or credit for a future trip £10 min would seem a reasonable refund for a failed catering experience..

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many long haul flights I've been on run out of food options. I've frequently watched the rows in front being offered a choice of main meal but by the time they get to me there is only one option left.

They do however carry one meal per passenger whether the passenger wants it or not. That said, that does result in waste, and the difference is that the passenger has already paid for it in their fare so the waste effectively costs nowt.

 

[Mingulay]

They do however carry one meal per passenger whether the passenger wants it or not. That said, that does result in waste, and the difference is that the passenger has already paid for it in their fare so the waste effectively costs nowt.

Trains, especially with a dedicated buffet/ lounge car should always trump a long haul plane. Much more space and you can re-provision at stops along the way . And you don't have to serve a lot of people at one go. There s no excuse for a consistent and acceptable level of catering on a bespoke new train marketed as a hotel on wheels. None!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trains, especially with a dedicated buffet/ lounge car should always trump a long haul plane. Much more space and you can re-provision at stops along the way . And you don't have to serve a lot of people at one go. There s no excuse for a consistent and acceptable level of catering on a bespoke new train marketed as a hotel on wheels. None!

With that I certainly agree. In any case, talking of haggis, neeps and tatties, that's a perfect frozen or even canned/in a jar ready meal - nobody would ever notice it wasn't fresh when eating it on a train.

I'm not saying serve Tesco Value Canned Bolognaise, those manky canned gristleburgers in gravy you used to get, or whatever - commission something of an appropriate quality in a can/jar/whatever.

As per discussions elsewhere about restaurant cars, it's about designing your menu to produce good results using a freezer, hermetically-sealed long life packaging, boiling water and a microwave. It's really not hard to do - DB have done it for years. Then you can keep large on-board stocks of everything, and if they don't get used just use them next time.

 

[Indigo Soup]

They do however carry one meal per passenger whether the passenger wants it or not. That said, that does result in waste, and the difference is that the passenger has already paid for it in their fare so the waste effectively costs nowt.

Of course, depending on the food offering and how it's stored, it's not a given that anything not used on Monday is wasted - if (as proposed) it can be frozen, or just kept chilled in a usable state, what doesn't get used on Monday may be available for the rest of the week.Passengers will probably understand if you're running out of a few things towards the end of the night, so you don't need to carry one of everything for every passenger just in case. Whilst demand might fluctuate, I'd imagine that it ought to be possible to get a sense of how it varies and plan accordingly - it might well be the case that (say) the down Sunday night/back Thursday night commuter traffic has different habits than the Friday night leisure market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, depending on the food offering and how it's stored, it's not a given that anything not used on Monday is wasted - if (as proposed) it can be frozen, or just kept chilled in a usable state, what doesn't get used on Monday may be available for the rest of the week.Passengers will probably understand if you're running out of a few things towards the end of the night, so you don't need to carry one of everything for every passenger just in case. Whilst demand might fluctuate, I'd imagine that it ought to be possible to get a sense of how it varies and plan accordingly - it might well be the case that (say) the down Sunday night/back Thursday night commuter traffic has different habits than the Friday night leisure market.

Indeed, you'd think it might follow a bit of a pattern. It would also I guess be possible to get an idea by offering a small discount for pre-booking a meal (which would include a lounge car reservation - perhaps it could be that the only way to have a lounge car reservation at certain times was to pre-book a meal per person).

 

[Chrism20]

With the best will in the world items are going to run out on board and forecasting the behaviour of the public is challenging to say the least.

You could go weeks selling one of something every night and then suddenly one night you get a dozen people all wanting it and then your forecasting goes out the window. It’s simply not logistically possible to carry 150 portions of haggis, 150 portions of chicken, 150 portions of risotto and so on.

How is the refrigeration in the new stock? Can the new units be kept running during the daytime in order to allow stock from the previous night to be kept rather than being discarded? Things like this should allow additional stock to be carried as it doesn’t have to be wasted every morning.

I do think there should be the option to order food online before travelling. They could make it that you have to order specific dishes (Jet2 do this and it works pretty well for them). XC also done something similar a couple of years back and although it wasn’t that popular it worked quite well.

 

[InOban]

AIRC CS were claiming to use local 'artisan' suppliers around Inverness to supply the Highlander.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Ridiculously, even pre-booking two meals last year IIRC we couldn't reserve what we wanted (we knew already), we had to take our chances when boarding (at Aviemore)...
We did actually get what we wanted but only just I recall...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ridiculously, even pre-booking two meals last year IIRC we couldn't reserve what we wanted (we knew already), we had to take our chances when boarding (at Aviemore)...
We did actually get what we wanted but only just I recall...

That's extremely poor. What's the point in booking and paying for a meal in advance where you don't know if you'll get it?

 

[Jocques]

I think prebooking is the way to go. It's not exactly unthinkable to have dedicated food loading points, say at Preston and Edinburgh, if there's demand for more food though. The stops in the middle seem to get left out; especially when there's microwavable haggis out there (which sounds rank, admittedly).

Having said that, CS is not a premium service and is not charging a premium price (besides first class). As it is, I'm effectively getting a bed for the night and travel to the other end of Britain for under a hundred quid. I might just get Deliveroo to meet me at Preston station (I would if there weren't ticket barriers!).

 

[jagardner1984]

The obvious thing would surely be for the ticket price to include some sort of voucher for a couple of quid off prebooked food.

That way customers are incentivised to prebook and CS have better management of demand.

Alternatively for certain ticket prices to include a meal when selected at purchase. Some might say having handed over £330, charging me a penny more for a microwaved ready meal and a cuppa is .... bold ... customer service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having said that, CS is not a premium service and is not charging a premium price

Yes, it is.

As it is, I'm effectively getting a bed for the night and travel to the other end of Britain for under a hundred quid.

The only place you'll get it for under a hundred quid is in the seats.

I might just get Deliveroo to meet me at Preston station (I would if there weren't ticket barriers!).

Preston station does not have ticket barriers.

 

[6Z09]

Saw a union circular saying the Rail Gourmet contract with Cakedonian Sleeper is transfering to Newrest.
Could this affect/improve things?