Caledonian Sleeper

[najaB]

So rather than run to Aberdeen (72 miles), you'd have the loco run round (presumably not using the bay platforms, or you'd need another loco)...

Nope. Platforms 1 and 4 both have the ability to run round.

...and then go to Glasgow (something over 80 miles)

There's about 15 miles difference. Which is a few tens of pounds additional cost. If Glasgow is too far, Perth has (I believe) the necessary equipment to service CET tanks. Failing that, I expect that Cadder will.

I'm not seeing how that saves you anything - in fact it costs a whole lot more.

It saves the cost of a second servicing depot.

 

[williamn]

The sleeper has staff on the platform until the last minute, plus the guard at the very end, plus the Euston dispatch staff all along the platform too, plus station staff, that's a lot of staff to not interact with late runners in some way, which is what I find odd.

As you were in the Glasgow portion (at the front of the train as it leaves Euston) then when you spotted these people they would already have had time to walk at least half the length of the train, so would have been on the platform a few minutes before departure, surely?

Yes that’s what I was thinking. Odd. I just kept thinking how crappy it would be to be then and see your train disappearing off without you at near enough midnight!

 

[Falcon1200]

Nope. Platforms 1 and 4 both have the ability to run round.
There's about 15 miles difference. Which is a few tens of pounds additional cost. If Glasgow is too far, Perth has (I believe) the necessary equipment to service CET tanks. Failing that, I expect that Cadder will.

It saves the cost of a second servicing depot.

You would also need staff for the run-round at Dundee, and the train would have limited time to stand in a through platform due to other services. Neither Perth nor Cadder are CS depots, and Perth is not accessible from Dundee without shunt/propelling moves.

 

[williamn]

The Lowlander must be different, because I was on the Highlander to Fort William last night in a club room and was given a menu card to fill out with five choices (porridge, smoothie, bacon roll, Highland breakfast, smoked salmon) - I went for the smoked salmon and poached eggs which was nicely served in the lounge car along with toast and tea.

I think it might have been because there was no club car due to staff sickness and also no room service.

I am loathe to complain because I’m on a flexipass so actually it was a bonus I had booked a club room with it before the deadline for the free upgrades came!

 

[43096]

There's about 15 miles difference. Which is a few tens of pounds additional cost. If Glasgow is too far, Perth has (I believe) the necessary equipment to service CET tanks. Failing that, I expect that Cadder will.

It saves the cost of a second servicing depot.

I take it you're assuming the crew are doing the run-round? Do they currently, or will that need an additional shunter at Dundee (and extra cost)?

The second servicing depot already exists and is needed regardless of the sleeper requirement at Clayhills. There might be a saving on staffing if there's no day shift required without the sleeper, although there may be additional staff needed at Polmadie/Cadder/Perth/Scottish depot bingo if extra vehicles are on depot.

It's still not a great idea - though you will obviously never admit it - the option is really around running it in service to Aberdeen or ditching that portion entirely.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The sleeper has staff on the platform until the last minute, plus the guard at the very end, plus the Euston dispatch staff all along the platform too, plus station staff, that's a lot of staff to not interact with late runners in some way, which is what I find odd.

As you were in the Glasgow portion (at the front of the train as it leaves Euston) then when you spotted these people they would already have had time to walk at least half the length of the train, so would have been on the platform a few minutes before departure, surely?

It's a long walk from the barriers to the front end of the train, and people do usually look for their own carriage by walking along the platform, rather than inside the train. But it does seem odd that none of the dispatch staff gave them a hurry-up

 

[najaB]

You would also need staff for the run-round at Dundee, and the train would have limited time to stand in a through platform due to other services. Neither Perth nor Cadder are CS depots, and Perth is not accessible from Dundee without shunt/propelling moves.

The staff would travel up from Edinburgh. And in the current timetable, platform 1N could be available from 0556 until 0646 if the 1N terminator from Arbroath was either moved to P4 or ran around to the southern end of P1.

 

[MrEd]

I think it might have been because there was no club car due to staff sickness and also no room service.

I am loathe to complain because I’m on a flexipass so actually it was a bonus I had booked a club room with it before the deadline for the free upgrades came!

I see. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[ajrm]

I'd suggest that the Highlander is a Premier Inn Royal Scotsman for many passengers in the summer.
If it can't make it work in a time when domestic tourism has little overseas competition, what chance has it got when holidays abroad are back in full swing?

What's to stop it waiting for longer in Edinburgh before going north?

Capacity for the shunt is one major issue, I suspect. You might get away with a slight delay but you don't want to be holding up all that space at the Waverley in the middle of the morning peak (the Lowlander, on the other hand, is a single portion, in and out).

Which is a pity, because as another poster rightly points out, the timings on the northbound Aberdeen portion are not great. I'd come north on the sleeper a lot more if it didn't kick out in Dundee at 6am or earlier.

 

[Bill57p9]

Capacity for the shunt is one major issue, I suspect. You might get away with a slight delay but you don't want to be holding up all that space at the Waverley in the middle of the morning peak (the Lowlander, on the other hand, is a single portion, in and out).

Which is a pity, because as another poster rightly points out, the timings on the northbound Aberdeen portion are not great. I'd come north on the sleeper a lot more if it didn't kick out in Dundee at 6am or earlier.

Assuming the existing paths for the Fort William and Inverness portions were retained then the Aberdeen portion would "only" tie up platform 19.

In other news, I see that both portions of last nights southbound lowlander spent the night at Waverly before running ECS to Wembley at 0630 this morning. Presumably guests had the journey of a night time before transforming into customers on an early morning LNER.

Both portions are running from Edinburgh again tonight but northbound lowlander appears still to be planned to split.

 

[Grumpy]

You've obviously never used the road from Dalwhinnie towards FW

I have family living by Loch Ness and I use that route (from Dalwhinnie to Spean Bridge) a couple of times a year.
Whilst only a 2 lane road it is used by caravans, coaches, and artics that all crack on. It is a much more pleasant drive than down to Glasgow from Fort William. The only problem I have had was one January when the section from Laggan to Dalwhinnie was blocked by snow so we had to divert via Newtonmore. Although I proposed coach from Dalwhinnie, on reflection coach from Newtonmore or Kingussie might be easier.

It really doesn't make sense at all. Anyone who wants to do that can already take the Lowlander to Glasgow and a bus (or day train) to FW.

Indeed but that would be inferior-necessitating transferring to Queen St or the bus station and in either case not arriving till approx midday, whereas the connecting coach would have you there by early morning. Three hours plus on a bus on the horrible roads from Glasgow to Fort William would be considerably less appealing than just over an hour on the connecting coach.

It just doesn't make any sense. If CS have undercapacity on the Inverness seats, then it would make more sense to order another seated coach from CAF while the jigs presumably still exist, but I doubt they do.

What undercapacity? Simply transfer the FW vehicles to the Inverness service

 

[haggishunter]

Aside from the sleeper aspect, removing the Fort William part of the Highlander under normal circumstances would also reduce the Fort William (and in-between stations to Crianlarich) to Glasgow travel options by a 1/4 and a connecting coach coming in from the East on the A86 is only going to serve Roybridge, Spean Bridge and Fort William (good luck getting a full sized coach back out of Tulloch) and Corrour south has no service at all. Your also removing the one direct train to London for a geographically huge portion of Scotland, whereas Aberdeen has several day trains and flights to London airports. The West Highlands needs improved connectivity not less, removing the Ft Wm portion of the Highlander would be simply vandalism.

If capacity is an issue on the Inverness leg and the Aberdeen portion is really struggling, is there any way of getting paths for the Aberdeen portion to continue to Inverness, giving a sleeper service to 9 more stations and the later arrival time into Inverness might be a first choice for some of the tourist traffic to the Highlands.

 

[D6130]

You would also need staff for the run-round at Dundee, and the train would have limited time to stand in a through platform due to other services. Neither Perth nor Cadder are CS depots, and Perth is not accessible from Dundee without shunt/propelling moves.

Could somebody please remind me what happened with the Aberdeen portion during the Carmont blockage?

 

[JonathanH]

Could somebody please remind me what happened with the Aberdeen portion during the Carmont blockage?

For a lot of the relevant period of the Carmont blockage, neither it nor the Fort William or Glasgow portion weren't scheduled to run in any case due to 'lockdown' restrictions.

Engineering work sometimes leads to the Aberdeen portion terminating at Dundee. In those instances a 73 goes on each end and it goes empty to Polmadie for servicing.

 

[D6130]

For a lot of the relevant period of the Carmont blockage, neither it nor the Fort William or Glasgow portion weren't scheduled to run in any case due to 'lockdown' restrictions.

Thanks.

 

[D1537]

Does anyone know what a 92 and a rake of sleeper stock was doing heading south near Watford Gap yesterday lunchtime? I would have looked at RTT but I was driving on the M1, and then forgot.

 

[cyclebike]

Does anyone know what a 92 and a rake of sleeper stock was doing heading south near Watford Gap yesterday lunchtime? I would have looked at RTT but I was driving on the M1, and then forgot.

I assume something to do with the below...

In other news, I see that both portions of last nights southbound lowlander spent the night at Waverly before running ECS to Wembley at 0630 this morning. Presumably guests had the journey of a night time before transforming into customers on an early morning LNER.

 

[SteveM70]

I haven’t given this any real thought so doubtless I’ll be shot down by those more knowledgable than me, but why not bin the Aberdeen portion, strengthen the Inverness and Fort Bill portions, but run the Inverness up the HML 3 nights a week and via Aberdeen 3 nights a week? That way everywhere currently served keeps a service, plus North East Scotland gets added

 

[Highlandspring]

The staff would travel up from Edinburgh. And in the current timetable, platform 1N could be available from 0556 until 0646 if the 1N terminator from Arbroath was either moved to P4 or ran around to the southern end of P1.

Platform 1N at Dundee is 96m between signals D755 and D746. Neither signal has standing ahead controls. The total length of 4x mk5 coaches and a class 73 loco is 105.76m. Back to the drawing board.

 

[D1537]

I assume something to do with the below...

In other news, I see that both portions of last nights southbound lowlander spent the night at Waverly before running ECS to Wembley at 0630 this morning. Presumably guests had the journey of a night time before transforming into customers on an early morning LNER.

Thank you.

 

[6Z09]

Maybe the marketing needs rethinking more along the lines of a mystery tour?
Will you be kept in anticipation on the platform?
Are you going to be boarding a train or a bus?
What scenic delights can be expected?
Perhaps Queen Street low level in all its glory?
An all night bunk in platform 19 at Waverley, followed by an early morning scramble for seats on the 0540 to Kings Cross?
For Northbound "Guests " an early morning call at 0400, a trek to Edinburgh's historic Market Street to board a luxury coach?
The possibilities are endless!
A truly unique opportunity for travellers, one everyone should try to experience once in a lifetime surely?

 

[BRX]

I haven’t given this any real thought so doubtless I’ll be shot down by those more knowledgable than me, but why not bin the Aberdeen portion, strengthen the Inverness and Fort Bill portions, but run the Inverness up the HML 3 nights a week and via Aberdeen 3 nights a week? That way everywhere currently served keeps a service, plus North East Scotland gets added

Well, no it doesn't - a whole load of places lose 50% of their service.

Could there be a dedicated thread entitled "various ways to run down the caledonian sleeper or abandon it altogether"?

That could also discuss the ideas that involve providing a rail service by putting people on buses instead.

 

[JonathanH]

I haven’t given this any real thought so doubtless I’ll be shot down by those more knowledgable than me, but why not bin the Aberdeen portion, strengthen the Inverness and Fort Bill portions, but run the Inverness up the HML 3 nights a week and via Aberdeen 3 nights a week? That way everywhere currently served keeps a service, plus North East Scotland gets added

That doesn't seem to recognise that there is all week demand on the HML and it takes a long time to get to Inverness via Aberdeen.

 

[SteveM70]

That doesn't seem to recognise that there is all week demand on the HML and it takes a long time to get to Inverness via Aberdeen.

But is there? How much of it is leisure-based travel and therefore by its very nature more flexible than business-driven travel?

 

[norbitonflyer]

But is there? How much of it is leisure-based travel and therefore by its very nature more flexible than business-driven travel?

Who says leisure based travel is more flexible? In my experience, business meetings can be, and are, scheduled around flight/train times, and can be re-scheduled if transport conspires against you on the day. (If it's important that you are there, they will rearrange the meeting so that you can be there)
It's rather more difficult to rearrange school holidays or annual leave. And then there are family events such as weddings and funerals, for which the people travelling to them have little say in their timing.

Last time I got the sleeper to Inverness was to catch a flight for a holiday on Orkney. Little flexibility there.

 

[Meyrick]

Happy customer on Twitter https://twitter.com/iMeyrick/status/1427279346516045825

Message from CS customer services tells them to board a Scotrail service departing 2 hours ahead of the sleeper to Glasgow Queen Street "and from there you will board the sleeper to London Euston". Nope, 1M11 is starting from Waverley...

Easy if you know which websites to check. Less easy if you are a confused tourist. Or can't / don't get to Fort William 2 hours early for the Scotrail service.

Hi, this was me. 1B01 started at Queen St. The new TM and the attendant was there to board it with us. I was even offered a complimentary bacon roll as an apology (although would've preferred the extra 5 hours sleep). For those who did not make the ScotRail connection, a coach left FTW at the same time as the sleeper should've to connect at Queen St.

It then continued to EDB and connected with the other two portions of the highlander and continued to Euston as planned.

Not too happy, but I'm on PRIV so I won't complain.

 

[alangla]

Could there be a dedicated thread entitled "various ways to run down the caledonian sleeper or abandon it altogether"?

To be honest, if it’s a choice between retaining the sleepers or reinstating the cut ScotRail daytime trains then I think the majority view would probably be to fix the daytime services. This might be a hard choice that comes sooner rather than later

 

[najaB]

Platform 1N at Dundee is 96m between signals D755 and D746. Neither signal has standing ahead controls. The total length of 4x mk5 coaches and a class 73 loco is 105.76m. Back to the drawing board.

Then you swap the XC from Platform 4 to 1S. Still gives you nearly 40 minutes on P4, or you drag a 73 on the end and don't bother with the run around..

 

[Highlandspring]

Goodness, you should go for a job in Train Planning.

 

[Merseysider]

In fairness to CS, they’ve just got back to me apologising for the issues I outlined with my journey last week and provided a partial refund (off their own back - I wasn’t compo chasing in my email to them )

I do hope things settle down soon - when everything goes to plan it’s a brilliant journey, but if passengers keep having poor experiences there’ll be a lot of first-and-last-time users.