Caledonian Sleeper

[Mag_seven]

On April 03rd the INV-EUS service is timetabled to arrive in Euston at 09:05. The service is using the ECML and appears to reverse in Wembley Yard. Not being overly familiar with the CS operation, can someone explain this move?

In order to get into Euston after coming off the ECML it has to reverse in Wembley Yard - I'm not quite sure what exactly you want explained?

 

[Airline Man]

I’m still none the wiser what the ‘big announcement” was about. I tweeted Caledonian Sleeper but they haven’t replied.

 

[Furrball]

It's being held on the concourse awaiting the late arrival of stock!

 

[BRX]

Am I the only one who finds that (unless to massive excess, which is more passing out than sleeping) alcohol makes me less likely to sleep?

No, you're not the only one.

In the ignorance of youth I once thought it would be a good plan to take a bottle of red wine to drink on the overnight coach from Inverness to London. All it did was provide me with a hangover on top of sleep deprivation.

The drinking wasn't there only mistake there; the other was doing an overnight bus when there's a rail based alternative, something I have never done since. Even less comfortable than the seated sleeper, no joy in the experience whatsoever, and no advantage other than saving a few pounds.

 

[AlbertBeale]

In order to get into Euston after coming off the ECML it has to reverse in Wembley Yard - I'm not quite sure what exactly you want explained?

Maybe the question actually was, how does it get to Wembley Yard (facing the wrong way, so to speak) from the ECML.

I presume the answer is that it "turns right" just before KX, round the loop north of StP to go up the incline onto the NLL? And then quickly leaving the NLL and picking up the WCML by going though the link via South Hampstead; and then the first place it can "pull in" to change ends is Wembley? (Or it could stay on the NLL longer, and join the WCML at Willseden Junction instead of directly at South Hampstead.)

Alternatively, there'd be a route by using the N-W curve just south of Harringay to leave the ECML, on to the Goblin [Barking to Gospel Oak line], continuing on the NLL after Gospel Oak to pick up the WCML at Willseden Junction, and then into Wembley to reverse as before. This might be a tiny bit shorter/quicker perhaps, but someone has referred to a train accessing Euston from the WCML going past Finsbury Park first - which would only be the case if using the NLL incline at StP.

 

[JonathanH]

Alternatively, there'd be a route by using the N-W curve just south of Harringay to leave the ECML, on to the Goblin [Barking to Gospel Oak line], continuing on the NLL after Gospel Oak to pick up the WCML at Willseden Junction, and then into Wembley to reverse as before.

Unfortunately not accessible from the north without a double shunt via Harringay / Ferme Park

 

[BRX]

Are we talking about this curve? I think earlier in the thread someone said the sleeper has been known to use it, but perhaps that's in a northbound direction only.

As I understand it, where the sleeper diversions have a more regular choice of routes, is at what's marked as "Camden Road West Junction" on this map. Coming from the north/east, they can go either way here, either via Hampstead Heath or via South Hampstead. I think I've been on diversions on both. In the latter option, there's quite a long stretch of line that you traverse twice, to get out to Wembley, and then all the way back in again to get to Euston.

 

[norbitonflyer]

On April 03rd the INV-EUS service is timetabled to arrive in Euston at 09:05. The service is using the ECML and appears to reverse in Wembley Yard. Not being overly familiar with the CS operation, can someone explain this move?

If you're querying whjy it can't go to Kings Cross, it's because there is no platform there long enough for it. And after Doncaster there is no route from the ECML to Euston that doesn't require a reversal. (Doncaster - Sheffield - Bedford - Bletchley is of course impractical for a Class 92 as the only wired sections are between Bedford and Kettering, and a short stretch thriough Rotherham (the latter at the wrong voltage)

 

[ashkeba]

If you're querying whjy it can't go to Kings Cross, it's because there is no platform there long enough for it. And after Doncaster there is no route from the ECML to Euston that doesn't require a reversal. (Doncaster - Sheffield - Bedford - Bletchley is of course impractical for a Class 92 as the only wired sections are between Bedford and Kettering, and a short stretch thriough Rotherham (the latter at the wrong voltage)

Surely it would fit in StP HS1 platforms (ECML-CTRL link in and silo curve out to NLL) but I bet the access charges would be phenomenal.

 

[BRX]

Surely it would fit in StP HS1 platforms (ECML-CTRL link in and silo curve out to NLL) but I bet the access charges would be phenomenal.

You'd also be mixing up passengers who did and didn't need to go through passport/customs/security etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd also be mixing up passengers who did and didn't need to go through passport/customs/security etc.

When does the last E* of the day depart? Arrivals can be worked around, security isn't the same issue, and domestic and international passengers already mix in UK airport departure lounges. It's worked around by taking a photo of the domestic passengers as they enter so a sneaky boarding pass swap can be avoided.

 

[Stow]

Could the Sleeper not just get shortened if running to KGX as a diversion?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could the Sleeper not just get shortened if running to KGX as a diversion?

It's been done before, as has running more separate trains. But you don't want to shorten it while it's filling up on most days (as that's chucking revenue away; unlike day trains you can't just "cram 'em in") and operating more trains (e.g. the Glasgow and Edinburgh separately, and the FW/Aberdeen or Inverness separately) is highly costly.

 

[zwk500]

When does the last E* of the day depart? Arrivals can be worked around, security isn't the same issue, and domestic and international passengers already mix in UK airport departure lounges. It's worked around by taking a photo of the domestic passengers as they enter so a sneaky boarding pass swap can be avoided.

The biggest issue is that whilst the ECML/HS1 link is physically present the signalling has not been commissioned. You'd also still need to get the stock from St Pancras to Wembley for servicing.

 

[ashkeba]

The biggest issue is that whilst the ECML/HS1 link is physically present the signalling has not been commissioned. You'd also still need to get the stock from St Pancras to Wembley for servicing.

The Silo Curve back to the North London Line could be used to get to Wembley. Is it commissioned?

I'm sure it won't happen soon but a passenger-centred railway would do it for arrivals instead of taking an hour long detour and reverse. Departure less of a need.

 

[6Z09]

I’m still none the wiser what the ‘big announcement” was about. I tweeted Caledonian Sleeper but they haven’t replied.

New advertising campaign.

 

[Bletchleyite]

New advertising campaign.

A fairly average advertising campaign featuring a woman who looks very much like she wished she'd gone with easyJet instead.

I suppose CS are a constant flow of disappointment

 

[zwk500]

The Silo Curve back to the North London Line could be used to get to Wembley. Is it commissioned?

As far as I know, no. However I don't have 100% confirmation

I'm sure it won't happen soon but a passenger-centred railway would do it for arrivals instead of taking an hour long detour and reverse. Departure less of a need.

Is it passenger centred to spend £millions on links that will be used less than a dozen times a year? You'd also need to manage any security issues at St Pancras - the area is still considered 'airside' and although it isn't anything that hasn't been sorted somewhere else it's still a problem that a temporary solution would be disproportionately costly to implement. It's also politically probably not advisable to do anything that would make Scottish passengers feel like they are arriving in a different sovereign territory.

 

[RT4038]

When does the last E* of the day depart? Arrivals can be worked around, security isn't the same issue, and domestic and international passengers already mix in UK airport departure lounges. It's worked around by taking a photo of the domestic passengers as they enter so a sneaky boarding pass swap can be avoided.

But international passengers at St. Pancras have passed through French immigration at St Pancras. There are no UK airports that do that, so mixing domestic and international passengers at St. Pancras would not be acceptable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But international passengers at St. Pancras have passed through French immigration at St Pancras. There are no UK airports that do that, so mixing domestic and international passengers at St. Pancras would not be acceptable.

Departing ones have. Which is why I asked when the last departure was - I believe it's quite early - well before even the Highlander would be boarding.

Arriving passengers are not the same issue, the airport workaround would work for them.

 

[paul1609]

The biggest issue is that whilst the ECML/HS1 link is physically present the signalling has not been commissioned. You'd also still need to get the stock from St Pancras to Wembley for servicing.

I don't think there are any protocols on as to how train protection works for a train controlled by AWS./TPWS approaching a stationcontrolled by KVB (St Pancras HS). Ashford P3/4 has both systems overlaid so I suspect you'd have to partially resignal St Pancras to include AWS/TPWS for passenger use. I believe one of the freight companies has a special clause in their safety case to allow them to work engineering trains over the link.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Departing ones have. Which is why I asked when the last departure was - I believe it's quite early - well before even the Highlander would be boarding.

Arriving passengers are not the same issue, the airport workaround would work for them.

I think the problem would be that all air passengers (international or domestic) have to have suitable id to travel. That is not a prerequisite of train travel. So for the sleeper to be the equivalent of airside the passengers would need to be carrying their passport or equivalent id.

 

[MotCO]

It's also politically probably not advisable to do anything that would make Scottish passengers feel like they are arriving in a different sovereign territory.

You might not be far from the truth with this comment

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the problem would be that all air passengers (international or domestic) have to have suitable id to travel. That is not a prerequisite of train travel. So for the sleeper to be the equivalent of airside the passengers would need to be carrying their passport or equivalent id.

Nope. At terminals that deal with domestic and international pax together, it is done by taking a photo of domestic passengers as they pass security showing a domestic boarding card. ID has no relevance to it.

 

[ashkeba]

I think the problem would be that all air passengers (international or domestic) have to have suitable id to travel. That is not a prerequisite of train travel. So for the sleeper to be the equivalent of airside the passengers would need to be carrying their passport or equivalent id.

They already cordon bits off to keep arriving and departing passengers apart. It would be possible to keep sleeper passengers apart, especially if they arrived before the first international arrival at 0830. With a few fences, you could channel them straight off the buffer end through the big glass doors. It won't happen for lots of other reasons including the signalling commissioning and track ownership.

 

[Airline Man]

Nope. At terminals that deal with domestic and international pax together, it is done by taking a photo of domestic passengers as they pass security showing a domestic boarding card. ID has no relevance to it.

Officially, you don’t need any ID to travel on a domestic flight, you can call yourself Mickey Mouse if you want to,
doesn‘t make any difference. The reason your photo is taken at security is to ensure at the gate before you board the plane you are the same passenger as the one who checked in. Once past security you share the lounge with both international and domestic passengers. If you swap your domestic boarding pass with an international transit passenger then there is a way that someone could enter the country illegally. The photograph (biometrics) is to ensure that this doesn’t happen.

 

[BRX]

If the target was to allow passengers to get off the train earlier, rather than having to wait for the detour via Wembley, during east coast diversions, wouldn't the most straightforward solution be just to have a brief stop at somewhere like Finsbury Park, with a bit of selective door opening? Maybe it would just cause chaos with people trying to get themselves and their bags down the narrow coridors to the relevant carriage.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Unfortunately not accessible from the north without a double shunt via Harringay / Ferme Park

Unless, presumably, it switched to the Down lines on the way into London...

 

[zwk500]

Unless, presumably, it switched to the Down lines on the way into London...

The signalling to do so doesn't exist. There's also no crossovers to do a move like that anywhere near London. The nearest facing points from the the up to down fast are at Hitchin.

I don't think there are any protocols on as to how train protection works for a train controlled by AWS./TPWS approaching a stationcontrolled by KVB (St Pancras HS). Ashford P3/4 has both systems overlaid so I suspect you'd have to partially resignal St Pancras to include AWS/TPWS for passenger use. I believe one of the freight companies has a special clause in their safety case to allow them to work engineering trains over the link.

The solution there would be to install TPWS, which given its all colour light signing wouldn't be the end of the world.

If the target was to allow passengers to get off the train earlier, rather than having to wait for the detour via Wembley, during east coast diversions, wouldn't the most straightforward solution be just to have a brief stop at somewhere like Finsbury Park, with a bit of selective door opening? Maybe it would just cause chaos with people trying to get themselves and their bags down the narrow coridors to the relevant carriage.

Stopping at Finsbury Parl would be a nightmare as the train would only have half about half its doors on the platform. It'd also block the junctions behind it so trains would need to be routed around it from Alexandra Palace, restricting capacity. Given that much of the train would want to get the early arrival I cam see the train needing to stand for a while to let everybody off.

 

[BRX]

I wonder where's the closest station to London on the ECML that can accommodate the entire train on a platform? Somewhere miles away?