Caledonian Sleeper

[route101]

I'm on southbound sleeper tonight from Glasgow and despite booking classic fare I have been given a double room. Worried I'm in wrong room and someone will appear.

 

[The Planner]

Blind date!

 

[Bald Rick]

certainly feel more than a bit uncomfortable by the scale and growth of domestic flying and its obvious climate impact

There hasn’t been a growth in domestic flying. excluding the effects of Covid, it’s been much the same level for over a decade.

 

[popeter45]

I'm on southbound sleeper tonight from Glasgow and despite booking classic fare I have been given a double room. Worried I'm in wrong room and someone will appear.

double as in both bunks or the king size bed?
all classics are both bunks as easier to set all up same each night

i really think they should have not even bothered with the upper bed being able to be folded away, would have avoided that terrible fabric overhang on the wall of the lower bunk that reduces usuable space

 

[route101]

double as in both bunks or the king size bed?
all classics are both bunks as easier to set all up same each night

Double king size bed. End of coach. Hopefully no one joins me in Edinburgh!

Club car is for first class holders untill 1030

 

[popeter45]

Double king size bed. End of coach. Hopefully no one joins me in Edinburgh!

Club car is for first class holders untill 1030

oh nice, if end one i think thats the disabled one?
prob didnt have any disabled passengers book so freed that one up (dont think its sold as a regular double in case later a disable person books and therefore needs it?)

 

[jagardner1984]

There hasn’t been a growth in domestic flying. excluding the effects of Covid, it’s been much the same level for over a decade.

Ryanair Responds To 50% Domestic APD Cut From 1st April With 9 New Domestic UK Routes For Summer ’23 – Ryanair's Corporate Website

Europe’s largest airline group, the parent company of Buzz, Lauda and Malta Air. The Group connects over 240 destinations in 40 countries.

corporate.ryanair.com

A few examples.

A few years ago I took a nearly direct train from Glasgow to Southampton. I think a change at Reading or Brum, I forget. A few years on and the stripped back latest CrossCountry timetable offers one train daily from Glasgow. The off peak return is a cool £208.

And lo and behold today ….

easyJet launches new route from Glasgow Airport | Glasgow Times

The new year-round route to Southampton will take off for the first time this winter.

www.glasgowtimes.co.uk

Loganair Also fly this ex FlyBe route.

The point is the sleeper (or at least an overnight train) opens up journeys by rail that are otherwise at least a full day of travel. But the overall price point can quite easily be 10 times the air fare.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

oh nice, if end one i think thats the disabled one?
prob didnt have any disabled passengers book so freed that one up (dont think its sold as a regular double in case later a disable person books and therefore needs it?)

That's correct; the accessible double has different booking arrangements.

You can tell if it's the accessible double because it won't be en-suite; if it's en-suite it's the normal double suite.

 

[JamieL]

The point is the sleeper (or at least an overnight train) opens up journeys by rail that are otherwise at least a full day of travel. But the overall price point can quite easily be 10 times the air fare.

I think this is the key issue for the future of the railways. If we are serious about reducing emissions to net zero, domestic flying needs to be substantially curtailed. It needs a bold decision - massive environmental taxes on flights where the journey could be done by train in <6 hours for example. Of course, no politicians are going to make such a choice.

 

[jagardner1984]

I think this is the key issue for the future of the railways. If we are serious about reducing emissions to net zero, domestic flying needs to be substantially curtailed. It needs a bold decision - massive environmental taxes on flights where the journey could be done by train in <6 hours for example. Of course, no politicians are going to make such a choice.

The issue being of course there is nothing like the capacity to absorb that demand (25 departures to London airports from Glasgow alone yesterday on 150-200 seat aircraft, a conservative estimate over 3500 people or another 6 every seat filled 11 car Pendolino end to end).

And this country has a chequered history of connecting cities with additional bits of steel rail 1435mm apart.

 

[Trainbike46]

Deleted as went off-topic

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think this is the key issue for the future of the railways. If we are serious about reducing emissions to net zero, domestic flying needs to be substantially curtailed. It needs a bold decision - massive environmental taxes on flights where the journey could be done by train in <6 hours for example. Of course, no politicians are going to make such a choice.

Of course in France (part of Europe) istr they did do something to make rail more favourable over air for journeys long enough.

 

[zwk500]

Of course in France (part of Europe) istr they did do something to make rail more favourable over air for journeys long enough.

Naff all, really. Connecting flights were exempt and so barely any routes were affected.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Naff all, really. Connecting flights were exempt and so barely any routes were affected.

Ah, I take it connecting flights must be a significant part of the service.

 

[zwk500]

Ah, I take it connecting flights must be a significant part of the service.

Yes, after all CDG (like Heathrow) isn't exactly central to Paris, so most people who were going to Paris itself would already be on the TGVs. Equally any attempt to do something similar in the UK would almost certainly not extend to Anglo-Scottish flights, so the Sleeper would still have that competition.

 

[paul1609]

The issue being of course there is nothing like the capacity to absorb that demand (25 departures to London airports from Glasgow alone yesterday on 150-200 seat aircraft, a conservative estimate over 3500 people or another 6 every seat filled 11 car Pendolino end to end).

What you have to take in to account is that several of the London airports are also regional airports for areas with large populations. Gatwick with the Sussex Coast, Stansted with East Anglia, Essex and Kent, Glasgow is also the regional airport for the West Coast of Scotland.
The real journeys lots of people are making by air aren't city centre to city centre. Once you're away from the city centres the rail alternative often isn't that attractive even when compared to road. Even taking a journey where rail has the advantage of high frequency Gatwick Airport to Paisley by rail takes an average of 6 1/2 to 7 hours.

 

[JamieL]

What you have to take in to account is that several of the London airports are also regional airports for areas with large populations. Gatwick with the Sussex Coast, Stansted with East Anglia, Essex and Kent, Glasgow is also the regional airport for the West Coast of Scotland.
The real journeys lots of people are making by air aren't city centre to city centre. Once you're away from the city centres the rail alternative often isn't that attractive even when compared to road. Even taking a journey where rail has the advantage of high frequency Gatwick Airport to Paisley by rail takes an average of 6 1/2 to 7 hours.

And that is why you need to take a dynamic approach to incentivisation - for example taxing flights where the rail journey can be routinely achieved under six hours. Under such a model, flights from London to (e.g.) Aberdeen or Inverness would be fine, but flights to Birmingham or Edinburgh would rightly attract punitive charges. it will never happen of course both due to political will and the capacity issues mentioned above.

 

[zwk500]

And that is why you need to take a dynamic approach to incentivisation - for example taxing flights where the rail journey can be routinely achieved under six hours. Under such a model, flights from London to (e.g.) Aberdeen or Inverness would be fine, but flights to Birmingham or Edinburgh would rightly attract punitive charges. it will never happen of course both due to political will and the capacity issues mentioned above.

Why six? That's well above the level where trains stop being competitive. 4 is usually the boundary (and incidentally was what the original French proposal was), it can go longer for certain journeys/markets/circumstances.

 

[JamieL]

Why six? That's well above the level where trains stop being competitive. 4 is usually the boundary (and incidentally was what the original French proposal was), it can go longer for certain journeys/markets/circumstances.

It was just an example - but it needs to be a fairly bold figure if it is reduce the amount of domestic flying. Four hours for example would mean flights between London and Glasgow would not be included even when the degraded HS2 backbone comes online.

 

[43066]

Why six? That's well above the level where trains stop being competitive. 4 is usually the boundary (and incidentally was what the original French proposal was), it can go longer for certain journeys/markets/circumstances.

Yep. four is about right - of course this is why flying still edges train travel beyond about Newcastle. I suppose London to Scotland arguably isn’t a domestic flight, albeit it’s the sort of distance the French would have had in mind with this restriction - easily doable in less than four hours by TGV (probably nearer two hours).

 

[zwk500]

It was just an example - but it needs to be a fairly bold figure if it is reduce the amount of domestic flying. Four hours for example would mean flights between London and Glasgow would not be included even when the degraded HS2 backbone comes online.

With HS2 Phase 2 in full, London to Glasgow was 3:40, London to Edinburgh 3:48. It would depend exactly what was used to calcualte the travel times etc, or if they move to a distance-based restriction.

Personally, banning flights from the Central Belt and Newcastle would be a retrograde step for economic diversification. I could understand restrictions on flights as far as the M62 corridor.

 

[JamieL]

With HS2 Phase 2 in full, London to Glasgow was 3:40, London to Edinburgh 3:48. It would depend exactly what was used to calcualte the travel times etc, or if they move to a distance-based restriction.

Personally, banning flights from the Central Belt and Newcastle would be a retrograde step for economic diversification. I could understand restrictions on flights as far as the M62 corridor.

Was that with the now cancelled Golborne link? And we know the trains aren't going to tilt so that means slower journeys north of Crewe now. Add onto that the 'reality' of how the trains will actually be operated - stops at Warrington, Wigan, Lancaster, Preston, Oxenholme, Carlisle and others - and it is almost inconceivable the journey to Glasgow will be less than 4 hours.

I do take your point about economic diversification but the flip side is we need to achieve net zero and we aren't going to do that without some 'pain' on domestic flights. Of course there is no willingness to take that pain so it won't happen. We will fly everywhere and continue to degrade the environment kicking the can down the line for the next generation.

 

[zwk500]

Was that with the now cancelled Golborne link? And we know the trains aren't going to tilt so that means slower journeys north of Crewe now. Add onto that the 'reality' of how the trains will actually be operated - stops at Warrington, Wigan, Lancaster, Preston, Oxenholme, Carlisle and others - and it is almost inconceivable the journey to Glasgow will be less than 4 hours.

But the point was that 6 hours is rather a lot longer, the Scottish Central belt is right on the breakeven point between Rail and Air. So banning flights isn't an economically productive measure unless other solutions are in place.

 

[JamieL]

But the point was that 6 hours is rather a lot longer, the Scottish Central belt is right on the breakeven point between Rail and Air. So banning flights isn't an economically productive measure unless other solutions are in place.

Sorry I edited my post concurrent with your posting. The issue is not whether it is economically productive, it is whether it is environmentally necessary IMHO.

 

[zwk500]

Sorry I edited my post concurrent with your posting. The issue is not whether it is economically productive, it is whether it is environmentally necessary IMHO.

You won't benefit the environment by strangling people's lives. You need innovation to get solutions people will actually accept.
Otherwise, by your logic, all airlines should be banned full stop.

 

[JamieL]

You won't benefit the environment by strangling people's lives. You need innovation to get solutions people will actually accept.
Otherwise, by your logic, all airlines should be banned full stop.

If people fly less, it will help the environment. The question is whether it is worth the economic pain. I don't think I suggested banning either - merely incentivisation.

 

[Siemens Trains]

But the point was that 6 hours is rather a lot longer, the Scottish Central belt is right on the breakeven point between Rail and Air. So banning flights isn't an economically productive measure unless other solutions are in place.

Therein lies an advantage of a sleeper train. For those in the land of nod between midnight and 6.30am, the train journey effectively takes about half an hour on the Lowlander. I know people claim HS2 will kill off demand for the Caledonian Sleeper but it seems booked solid most nights at present and of course cheap flights may not be around forever. Given the apparent challenges with lack of rail capacity between Glasgow and London to absorb those who presently fly, perhaps there's justification for running multiple sleeper trains to/from Scotland rather than only the two journeys we have today.

 

[paul1609]

It was just an example - but it needs to be a fairly bold figure if it is reduce the amount of domestic flying. Four hours for example would mean flights between London and Glasgow would not be included even when the degraded HS2 backbone comes online.

Electric planes on the London Glasgow routes will be making rail unviable by the time HS2 is online.

 

[andythebrave]

Electric planes on the London Glasgow routes will be making rail unviable by the time HS2 is online.

I'm not a betting man but even I would wager against that.

 

[zwk500]

Therein lies an advantage of a sleeper train. For those in the land of nod between midnight and 6.30am, the train journey effectively takes about half an hour on the Lowlander. I know people claim HS2 will kill off demand for the Caledonian Sleeper but it seems booked solid most nights at present and of course cheap flights may not be around forever. Given the apparent challenges with lack of rail capacity between Glasgow and London to absorb those who presently fly, perhaps there's justification for running multiple sleeper trains to/from Scotland rather than only the two journeys we have today.

Only if the sleeper fares come down dramatically.