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Call to let sleeper trains use the Channel tunnel

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33Hz

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Going to bed in London and waking up in Barcelona could become an option for green-minded travellers under a rail industry proposal to run sleeper trains through the Channel tunnel.

Rail journeys to distant European cities involve a whole day of travelling and changing trains at least once, deterring many who would otherwise prefer a low-carbon electric train to flying.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/static/theme-parks-chessington-zip-world-zoos-adventure/?ilc=nativo

But night trains are being revived in several European countries, including from Paris to Nice and Brussels to Stockholm and Vienna, and rail companies also want international sleepers to serve the UK.

However, to do so economically, they say the stringent safety rules governing the Channel tunnel would need to be relaxed because they currently require very specific and expensive rolling stock.

Anyone have more details about this. The same reporter has in the past twice claimed DB were going to start London services, so I take what he writes with a pinch of salt. I cannot find anything about it from the High Speed Rail Group themselves, but if they are pushing for this then more power to them.
 
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Darandio

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The same reporter has in the past twice claimed DB were going to start London services, so I take what he writes with a pinch of salt. I

But DB did want to start London services, they received certification to use the Channel Tunnel and even sent a unit into St Pancras.
 

33Hz

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Indeed, but it was reported much later that it was back on, when all parties then denied it.
 

edwin_m

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Nothing in principle to stop a sleeper leaving London some time in the evening, getting to the Tunnel before HS1 engineering shutdowns, and the return working arriving in London for the start of the working day. However the stock would need to meet the Tunnel fire regulations, and most importantly anyone boarding the train on the Continent would need to pre-clear British immigration and their baggage undergo security screening (possibly customs as well after Brexit). On past precedent that involves either having the necessary officials and facilities at every boarding station (expnsive) or tipping everyone out at Lille for an hour to be checked and re-boarded (hardly likely to go down well at about 5am!). So if a new network of sleepers emerges on the Continent I suspect the UK's participation will be by connection into a Eurostar at Paris, Lille or Brussels.
 

popeter45

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Nothing in principle to stop a sleeper leaving London some time in the evening, getting to the Tunnel before HS1 engineering shutdowns, and the return working arriving in London for the start of the working day. However the stock would need to meet the Tunnel fire regulations, and most importantly anyone boarding the train on the Continent would need to pre-clear British immigration and their baggage undergo security screening (possibly customs as well after Brexit). On past precedent that involves either having the necessary officials and facilities at every boarding station (expnsive) or tipping everyone out at Lille for an hour to be checked and re-boarded (hardly likely to go down well at about 5am!). So if a new network of sleepers emerges on the Continent I suspect the UK's participation will be by connection into a Eurostar at Paris, Lille or Brussels.
yea i suspect a 8am Lille service for connection with a euro star would fair far better
other far messyier option could be some kind of boarder control Carriage so each portion runs as 4-6 cars + boarder car + 2-3 seated cars till everybody is thru boarder controls then when each portion is coupled together with the boarder car and seated cars left for the returning portion. i suspect impossible and/or far to expensive thou
 

nlogax

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Looking beyond the current unpleasantness has anything changed since Nightstar that would enable Channel Tunnel sleeper services to prosper? And if not, why do some want to ignore the lessons of the past?
 

Ianno87

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yea i suspect a 8am Lille service for connection with a euro star would fair far better
other far messyier option could be some kind of boarder control Carriage so each portion runs as 4-6 cars + boarder car + 2-3 seated cars till everybody is thru boarder controls then when each portion is coupled together with the boarder car and seated cars left for the returning portion. i suspect impossible and/or far to expensive thou

I think the more sensible strategy is for Brussels/Paris to act as sleeper 'hubs' with Eurostar connections.

For one, you can leave London pleasantly mid-evening rather than hanging around St Pancras late at night.
 

Bald Rick

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Oh my goodness not again. We already have an active thread on a similar subject. And several other threads on a roughly annual basis for the last decade.

This is what I had to say 5 years ago.


I did make a mistake though: a London - Barca Sleeper would be at least 15 hours, probably more. If you were ‘going to bed’ in London, you’d be waking up somewhere around Dijon, with another 7-8 hours to go, just in time for a Siesta on arrival.

It’s not going to happen.
 

33Hz

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Oh my goodness not again. We already have an active thread on a similar subject. And several other threads on a roughly annual basis for the last decade.

Indeed. And I am sure I have participated in many of them.

The point is that this has been reported in the Times (and subsequently the Mail) and I was asking if anyone had any concrete info to substantiate what they have written, rather than to have another list of fantasy predictions. Furthermore, with the SoS for Transport stating at the launch of Amsterdam to London Eurostars in St Pancras that the government is actively looking to support services to the whole continent, there may be some credence to it.

If services could be timed to get as far along the LGVs before they close for the night as possible, I don't see why early evening departures can't be accommodated. The problem is political, not technical or logistical.
 

Polarbear

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If, (and it's a very big if) an operator could procure rolling stock that would satisfy Channel Tunnel requirements, that's going to come at a significant cost. Then, you have customs & border controls to account for, which will very much limit the origin/destination stations as they would have to be so equipped.

For me, a better idea would be to have some overnight services that travel between Lille and a selection of European destinations, being accessed by late evening/early morning Eurostar services. Yes, there's the issue of the interchange at Lille unless those overnight services could use Europe station.

A regular overnight services, properly advertised, between Lille and the south of France and another service to somewhere in Germany (Frankfurt possibly) may be workable?
 

33Hz

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If, (and it's a very big if) an operator could procure rolling stock that would satisfy Channel Tunnel requirements, that's going to come at a significant cost.

That's exactly the point of the original story.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Indeed. And I am sure I have participated in many of them.

The point is that this has been reported in the Times (and subsequently the Mail) and I was asking if anyone had any concrete info to substantiate what they have written, rather than to have another list of fantasy predictions. Furthermore, with the SoS for Transport stating at the launch of Amsterdam to London Eurostars in St Pancras that the government is actively looking to support services to the whole continent, there may be some credence to it.

If services could be timed to get as far along the LGVs before they close for the night as possible, I don't see why early evening departures can't be accommodated. The problem is political, not technical or logistical.

You know as well as any of us, what the numerous SoS for Transport have stated over the years versus what we have on the ground here in the UK are two massively different things with the vast chasm of short sightedness lying in between.

If there was any serious intention for continental services, the first thing to do would be to properly connect HS1 with HS2.
 

RT4038

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Indeed. And I am sure I have participated in many of them.

The point is that this has been reported in the Times (and subsequently the Mail) and I was asking if anyone had any concrete info to substantiate what they have written, rather than to have another list of fantasy predictions. Furthermore, with the SoS for Transport stating at the launch of Amsterdam to London Eurostars in St Pancras that the government is actively looking to support services to the whole continent, there may be some credence to it.

If services could be timed to get as far along the LGVs before they close for the night as possible, I don't see why early evening departures can't be accommodated. The problem is political, not technical or logistical.

The SoS for Transport will bump heads with the Home Secretary over immigration issues, and then have to take decisions on relaxation of safety requirements , the active support will likely morph into connecting Eurostar services.
 

Bald Rick

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Indeed. And I am sure I have participated in many of them.

The point is that this has been reported in the Times (and subsequently the Mail) and I was asking if anyone had any concrete info to substantiate what they have written, rather than to have another list of fantasy predictions. Furthermore, with the SoS for Transport stating at the launch of Amsterdam to London Eurostars in St Pancras that the government is actively looking to support services to the whole continent, there may be some credence to it.

If services could be timed to get as far along the LGVs before they close for the night as possible, I don't see why early evening departures can't be accommodated. The problem is political, not technical or logistical.

The last train on the LGV Nord is the 2000 off St Pancras; and a sleeper is unlikely to be travelling at 300kph. As you say, that means early evening departures 1800-1900 - if they can be pathed on HS1 or the LGV Nord (almost certainly not on the former, possibly on the latter). And that means it is departing well before the late evening flights to any prospective european destination. Given the choice of a £100 flight that Evans you can leave later tonight and gets you there tonight, or a £300-£500 Sleeper that gets you there tomorrow late morning, I know what 99% of the travelling public will choose.
 

ianhr

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Furthermore SNCF and RENFE do not seem favourably disposed to overnight trains at the moment. I believe the only remaining overnight train in France is the InterCite Nuit Paris Austerlitz-Toulouse-La Tour de Carol, and in the Iberian Peninsula the Sud Express is currently suspended.(?)
 

Starmill

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I don't really understand the appeal of an extremely expensive overnight sleeping car service on this route, when all it currently has is one rather pricey 'full service' international high speed train operator.

Surely enthusiasm would be far better directed at a low-cost high speed train service that uses the tunnel? The 'no frills' Izy service between Paris and Brussels for example specialises in €20 tickets, and turns off the LGV in order to cut track access costs. Doing that all the way from Calais to Paris may be a little impractical, along with a whole host of other things, but in principle an all standard class service aiming for low costs (minimum crew, catering from vending machines, etc) and £30ish tickets would be much more appealing in principle than a several hundred pounds a night overnight sleeper.
 

RT4038

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I don't really understand the appeal of an extremely expensive overnight sleeping car service on this route, when all it currently has is one rather pricey 'full service' international high speed train operator.

Surely enthusiasm would be far better directed at a low-cost high speed train service that uses the tunnel? The 'no frills' Izy service between Paris and Brussels for example specialises in €20 tickets, and turns off the LGV in order to cut track access costs. Doing that all the way from Calais to Paris may be a little impractical, along with a whole host of other things, but in principle an all standard class service aiming for low costs (minimum crew, catering from vending machines, etc) and £30ish tickets would be much more appealing in principle than a several hundred pounds a night overnight sleeper.

I think that the fixed fee 'per passenger' for travelling through the Channel Tunnel, plus the share of Security and UKBA costs (these don't come for free!) would not be covered by £30ish tickets. Perhaps there are hidden costs which cause Eurostar tickets to be not cheap, which even 'Izy' service would not make much of a dent in?
 

Starmill

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I think that the fixed fee 'per passenger' for travelling through the Channel Tunnel, plus the share of Security and UKBA costs (these don't come for free!) would not be covered by £30ish tickets. Perhaps there are hidden costs which cause Eurostar tickets to be not cheap, which even 'Izy' service would not make much of a dent in?
Eurostar charge £16 to make a booking with loyalty points as a so called 'network fee' (introduced in a few weeks). This implies the variable costs to them of those non-negotiable 'per passenger processed' fees come to about that amount, which would leave £14 left over for all other costs and any profits. Eurostar also used to sell a small number of cheap fixed tickets at £29 although only when booked as part of a return (all Eurostar tickets are now free to amend, at least before 14 days to departure)

So it doesn't seem that £30 singles as a starting offer would necessarily be too cheap, although clearly what we don't know to what extent the £260 Business fares on Eurostar go in cross subsidy of their cheapest standard rates.

A starting price of £35 would still undercut Eurostar and compete with airlines, although I accept that that may still be too thin to cover all operating costs and make a profit, even on a full 1000 seat train. Like Izy, Ouigo and others it wouldn't stay at £35 as the train starts to fill, it would go up to £45 and £55. Those rates would still be competitive against Eurostar at any time but their quietest.

Of course there'd need to be enormous capital to start such an operation up, although far less than for a Sleeper service, and I don't think that will be happening any time soon.

To put it another way, what the environmentally conscious traveller really wants is for the railways to put careful downwards pressure on costs, which is entirely the opposite of what Sleepers do.
 
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4COR

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Furthermore SNCF and RENFE do not seem favourably disposed to overnight trains at the moment. I believe the only remaining overnight train in France is the InterCite Nuit Paris Austerlitz-Toulouse-La Tour de Carol, and in the Iberian Peninsula the Sud Express is currently suspended.(?)

Not quite - there are four in France (Paris - Briancon; Rodez; Portbou and the Toulouse/Latour de Carol. And the French have recently announced the reintroduction of Paris-Tarbes and Paris-Nice (in 2022 IIRC).
 

Bald Rick

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I think that the fixed fee 'per passenger' for travelling through the Channel Tunnel, plus the share of Security and UKBA costs (these don't come for free!) would not be covered by £30ish tickets.

Eurostar charge £16 to make a booking with loyalty points as a so called 'network fee' (introduced in a few weeks). This implies the variable costs to them of those non-negotiable 'per passenger processed' fees come to about that amount,

AIUI the fees Eurostar have to pay to Eurotunnel etc amount to £23 per single trip passenger.

I’m afraid there’s little chance of a low cost rail operator, as the HS1 and LGV access charges are also rather high. It’s not as if Eurostar is making a shed load of money (and certainly not at present).
 

popeter45

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https://www.wired.co.uk/article/night-trains-channel-tunnel

....But carriages aside, the biggest financial concern is access charges, the fees that operators pay to run their trains over rail. As night trains by design travel large distances, those fees are huge — and that’s before considering the fact that the stretch between London and the end of the Channel Tunnel is the most expensive length of track in the world, says Guerra. According to his own calculations, the track access charge for that 159km costs €17,244 (£15,500), more than half of the €30,850 access charge for the entire 1,614km journey between London and Barcelona....

Good article discussing the idea of channel tunnel sleepers and the challenges involved like HS1 access charges
 
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Bald Rick

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Good article discussing the idea of channel tunnel sleepers and the challenges involved like HS1 access charges

The promoter basically sums up all the problems as being a lack of political will.

You could look at it from another perspective, which is that it is rather hard to get political support for a proposal that is expensive, would serve a small market, and requires significant changes to some fundamental elements of government policy.

Or put another way ..

“My Sleeper proposal to Europe would work if only Government(s) would force the infrastructure owner(s) to lower their prices, increase taxes on air transport, either join Schengen or introduce expensive border and security controls at all the stations we want to serve, and provide guarantees on funding so that our backers don’t lose money”

Yet again, it’s an answer looking for a question.
 

Philip Phlopp

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The level of subsidy needed to operate the Caledonian Sleeper is £25m per year, and there's other financial considerations concerning the procurement and leasing of the rolling stock, which puts total public subsidy at around £35m per year.

That's for a relatively uncomplicated service running six nights a week - how does anybody think an international service which will have border controls, will have to meet the safety requirements through the Channel Tunnel, and will need traction + rolling stock which is compatible with the range of destinations being desired, is going to be affordable ?

The comprehensive Britain to continental Europe service being requested here is going to burn well over £100m in subsidies every year.

How is that remotely acceptable value when we've still got semaphore signalling, inaccessible stations and 10,000 stkm in need of electrification to meet our climate change obligations ?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Reportedly, ÖBB is buying new sleeper stock to operate through the Alpine base tunnels now under construction (Semmering, Koralm, Brenner) which have higher fire protection regulations than the old routes.
I don't know how they compare with Eurotunnel regulations (the new Brenner tunnel is longer), but it might result in ET-compatible sleeper stock as standard, at least on some routes.
The new Gotthard tunnel is also longer than ET.
 

James James

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The comprehensive Britain to continental Europe service being requested here is going to burn well over £100m in subsidies every year.

How is that remotely acceptable value when we've still got semaphore signalling, inaccessible stations and 10,000 stkm in need of electrification to meet our climate change obligations ?
You haven't listed subsidies for air service or roads (as well as not taking into account environmental costs which currently aren't factored into transport prices). Not a fair comparison.
 

Bald Rick

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You haven't listed subsidies for air service or roads (as well as not taking into account environmental costs which currently aren't factored into transport prices). Not a fair comparison.

Which London to Europe air services receive subsidy?
 

CW2

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In addition to all the financial and political reasons, there is a capacity / timetabling issue as regards the Channel Tunnel. The tunnel has crossovers at the one third and two thirds distances. Any maintenance required in the tunnel takes place overnight. So the night time timetable needs to account for:
a) All lines open
b) One of the two sections at the UK end closed, with single line working
c) One of the two sections at the French end closed, with single line working
d) One of the UK sections and the adjacent middle section closed, with extended single line working
e) One of the French sections and the adjacent middle section closed, with extended single line working
This can result is a range of departure times varying by as much as an hour or more.
When single line working is on, tunnel capacity is at a premium. Running an additional overnight sleeper service would result in the withdrawal of a passenger or freight shuttle round trip, with attendant revenue loss to Eurotunnel and inconvenience to Shuttle users (passenger or freight).
In my view, the chances of running new sleeper services through the Channel Tunnel is nearly zero.
 

Bald Rick

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No direct subsidy. It's the indirect ones (via taxation, infrastructure, etc.) that are tricky.

Plenty of indirect subsidies to rail services too, via infrastructure (a further £12m for the Caley Sleeper) and (non) taxation...
 

HBP

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Eurostar charge £16 to make a booking with loyalty points as a so called 'network fee' (introduced in a few weeks).

Isn’t that only if you are redeeming points for a free ticket? Using cash & points doesn’t incur the £16 fee.
 
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