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Call to let sleeper trains use the Channel tunnel

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Chester1

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A few thoughts
1. there's High Speed sleeper services in China- worthwhile given the distances.
2. Spanish sleeper services use Talgo trenhotel sets that are fine at 220km/h, presumably Talgo could easily build newer sets capable of true high speed?
3. The fragmentation of European rail, in particular the rise of separated High Speed operators running as open access or pseudo open access that don't allow through tickets, is as far as I understand one of the big legacies of UK influence in the European Union.

How many high speed sleeper services are there in China? Beijing - Hong Kong is the only true HS sleeper service I am aware of. There are several fast(ish) sleepers and most are very slow. That in a country of 1.4 billion people.

I don't know how many times people need to be told that sleepers from UK to continental Europe would need a big subsidy to take a small share of the market. The former is a political decision but the latter is not. If there were daily services from London to France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Northern Spain and Northern Italy and then were fully filled that would still be a small minority of overall journeys to those countries. The capacity doesn't exist for more than a handful of daily sleeper services (if any) even if the demand and political will did exist. High speed trains cannot compete on distances much higher than 500 miles. Flying is a much more efficient way of travelling very long distances and if people really care about the environment there are much better priorities than reducing flying.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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Flying is a much more efficient way of travelling very long distances and if people really care about the environment there are much better priorities than reducing flying.

I agree - the problem is a sleeper train (locomotive and coaching stock) is comparable in cost to a narrow body aircraft (737 or A320) or a high speed train set (TGV or Velaro). The sleeper can do one journey every 24 hours, a short haul aircraft will easily do three to five sectors across Europe, and a high speed train can come close to, match or beat an aircraft, depending on the circumstances.
 

AlbertBeale

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€219 was quoted, which is appropriately £200. If the flight costs £100 and the sleeper costs £200, what is the percentage increase? 100%...

The flight price quoted was "£100-£130"; comparing each end of that range with the conversion of the Euro price gives a mark-up in the range 50%-100%, as opposed to the suggested 70%-100%. (And that's without any other factors increasing the cost of a flight compared with a rail journey.) That's why I only said "rather less"; meaning not quite as extreme as it sounded; I wasn't trying to imply that the percentage quoted should have been massively different.

(If I'd wanted to score a big point about the percentages, I'd have made the comparison the other way round, whereby the plane fare was 33%-50% less than the train, so the numbers weren't as big!)

Only if one takes the view that a night of sleep in bed on a train is comparable to in a hotel...

Personally, I find it often is! (For a single night. The differences that there are would be more relevant over several nights; but most sleepers are used for just one night.)

No idea, never been there. But in continental Europe, it's either rare, unknown, or totally non existant.

There were showers - and probably still are; I don't know for sure - at London Kings Cross. Funnily enough, I always thought such facilities were more common in places other than the UK. But MarcVD thinks the opposite. Maybe they're rare everywhere, but "the grass is always greener..." etc.

How many high speed sleeper services are there in China? Beijing - Hong Kong is the only true HS sleeper service I am aware of. There are several fast(ish) sleepers and most are very slow. That in a country of 1.4 billion people.

I don't know how many times people need to be told that sleepers from UK to continental Europe would need a big subsidy to take a small share of the market. The former is a political decision but the latter is not. If there were daily services from London to France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Northern Spain and Northern Italy and then were fully filled that would still be a small minority of overall journeys to those countries. The capacity doesn't exist for more than a handful of daily sleeper services (if any) even if the demand and political will did exist. High speed trains cannot compete on distances much higher than 500 miles. Flying is a much more efficient way of travelling very long distances and if people really care about the environment there are much better priorities than reducing flying.

Well, "efficiency" has many meanings and can be measured in many ways...

Re "...if people really care about the environment there are much better priorities than reducing flying..." - the seriousness of the situation is such that no one change will be sufficient; we need to do everything significant that we can. Some changes can make more difference than stopping flying; others less - but that's not an excuse for skipping dealing with the one you most want to hang on to.

"Better" priorities often means priorities that have less effect on the person making the point.
 
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Memma

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I wish we'd seen NightStar trains! If not at least it looks like Brussels is getting a lot more trains when SJ link it to Malmo and OBB to Vienna. It'd be great if it's returned to see the Thello continuing north too! Luckily Brussels avoids the Paris transfer!
 

Bald Rick

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The sleeper can do one journey every 24 hours, a short haul aircraft will easily do three to five sectors across Europe,

More than that. Most Easyjet ‘diagrams’ Ex Luton have 3 return trips (6 sectors) some have 4 (8). I don’t know how many passengers the average Easyjet A320 carries each day, but it will be around 1000.
 

James James

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A320 price: 85 millionEUR (often cheaper with negotiation), 180 seats in the easyjet version.
New Nightjet: around 18 million EUR per set (375 million euros for an order of 8 day and 13 night trains), capacity 260 passengers (seated+berths). Add another 4 million for a Vectron or equivalent to allow travel around most of Europe (although realistically you can just rent locos as needed, and use older ones PLUS those locos can be used for other tasks during the day).

So, hardware wise, there's no huge difference in terms of cost per journey (aircraft is still slightly cheaper over a day, depending on routes operated, but not worlds better - and certainly a night train doesn't cost anywhere near an aicraft). And don't forget that fuel costs are something like 20-30% of an airline's operating costs, so aircraft aren't necessarily cheaper for the same route (there certainly are distortions thanks to aviation fuel not being taxed, flight tickets not being subject to VAT in most of Europe, etc.).
 

James James

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And the CS Mark 5s we’re a little over £2m each. That makes a full train cost around £35m.
CS is going to be a bit atypical pricing wise given the small number of trains, and the UK specialties. (Something for channel tunnel will at least be able to use European gauging and standards, even if there are some extra costs for safety.) The OeBB pricing above is much more representative.

And a full-size CS train has more capacity than an A320.

(But again, this is all a distraction since hardware isn't the biggest issue for airlines.)
 

Philip Phlopp

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always cheaper with negotiation. Typically 50% cheaper.

And the CS Mark 5s we’re a little over £2m each. That makes a full train cost around £35m.

I double checked the average price paid for an A320neo last night (should have posted it, I suppose) and it's $48.5m in 2019 (a 55% discount) which is around £37.5m, add the cost of a new locomotive to the Caledonian Sleeper stock and it's a like-for-like cost comparison.

easyJet had (in 2019, admittedly) a 90.1% load factor, so if their new A320neo is doing five to six sectors (which you suggest may well be rather cautious) on a 186 seat aircraft, they're carrying 838 to 1006 passengers per day.
 

Bald Rick

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CS is going to be a bit atypical pricing wise given the small number of trains, and the UK specialties. (Something for channel tunnel will at least be able to use European gauging and standards, even if there are some extra costs for safety.) The OeBB pricing above is much more representative.

I’m afraid that’s hope over experience.

The ÖBB pricing is €375m for 163 coaches, of which only 26 are sleepers, 39 are couchettes, and the rest are seats. Even if the cost per coach is the same across all types (and sleepers / couchettes are always more expensive), then it is a little over £2m a coach. So yes, it is more representative - it’s the same price as the CS stock.
 
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AlbertBeale

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... flight tickets not being subject to VAT in most of Europe, etc.).

Under EU law, international air travel is the one thing that can't have non-zero VAT applied to it in any member state. Against a general EU presumption of getting rid of zero-rated items, and rules which don't allow any commodity or service in any country to ever revert to zero-rate VAT once it's had any other rate applied, it's an interesting commentary on the alleged eco credentials of the EU that air travel has this special favourable status built in.
 

James James

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Right, plenty of numbers - but none of them actually directly comparable: time to take the gloves off

OeBB 7-car train: for 260 passengers, 14M Euros if we take Bald Rick's numbers. That's 53k per person for the hardware.
(I'd previously estimated 18M per train, but my split across day/night trains was wrong.)
A320: 42M Euros for 180 passengers, that's 233k per person for the hardware.

The aircraft is almost 5x as expensive per person - although the aircraft can be used more than 5x as much. The aicraft wins - but not by anywhere near as much as some are claiming. Admittedly, night trains aren't 100% occupied since people can book a 3-bed room for themselves, but then that passenger also gets charged more. In theory, the seated carriages on sleepers can be reused during the day - although that doesn't seem to be done all that much.

Now for a fair comparison, you'd need the full operating costs. I suspect that maintenance costs are also higher for aircraft (higher standards, needs to be disassembled more regularly than a train, etc.), but don't have numbers on that. And we all know how much more fuel flying uses. I'm not buying that flying is actually cheaper.
 

BigCj34

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https://www.wired.co.uk/article/night-trains-channel-tunnel



Good article discussing the idea of channel tunnel sleepers and the challenges involved like HS1 access charges
Would the access charges be strictly per passenger? Or is it by train, or some other way? If it is the latter a no-thrills service could have lower access charges per passenger by having many more seats. However if it is per passenger, then having more standard premier and business fares recuperates the cost.

I note access charges for HS1 went up significantly this year (19% for international passenger services), not helpful for affordability.

Another point here is the market the sleepers serve. There’s no easy way to put this, but in this country at least the sleeper is the near exclusive preserve of people who have plenty of money; they choose the sleeper as an experience, or to save time, but very rarely because it is cheaper than the alternatives.

It would seem odd in this day and age to be spending significant subsidy - and were talking over £100 per passenger - to enable rich people to save a few hours or have a jolly time.

I know this may be controversial!
Hardly! I know that with the 4-day Canadian service, from Vancouver to Toronto, it is heavily subsidised. The minimum to have a bed, albeit with shower access and all meals, is around £800, and that is the top of a bunk bed without a window. A seat all the way is around £300 with no food and showers.

A very good tourist experience no doubt and not terrible value, but it is still not an economical alternative to airlines, Via Rail are not getting rich and not sure how much better the carbon emissions are when it runs off diesel all the way!
 
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RT4038

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Would the access charges be strictly per passenger? Or is it by train, or some other way? If it is the latter a no-thrills service could have lower access charges per passenger by having many more seats. However if it is per passenger, then having more standard premier and business fares recuperates the cost.

I note access charges for HS1 went up significantly this year (19% for international passenger services), not helpful for affordability.

Have as many business fares as you like, but business travellers are just not going to buy them and use these sleepers. Holidaymakers just won't pay the sort of fares required to make such services viable, unless a real change to the nature of holidays happens - take it all together, so only one lot of fares per year/two years and stay away for 4-8 weeks at a time. Which, funnily enough, is what used to happen years ago!
 

Starmill

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Under EU law, international air travel is the one thing that can't have non-zero VAT applied to it in any member state. Against a general EU presumption of getting rid of zero-rated items, and rules which don't allow any commodity or service in any country to ever revert to zero-rate VAT once it's had any other rate applied, it's an interesting commentary on the alleged eco credentials of the EU that air travel has this special favourable status built in.
Indeed. Although member states may apply their relevant rate to domestic air travel, as long as otherwise compliant. I think the Germans do.
 

Bald Rick

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Right, plenty of numbers - but none of them actually directly comparable: time to take the gloves off

OeBB 7-car train: for 260 passengers, 14M Euros if we take Bald Rick's numbers. That's 53k per person for the hardware.
(I'd previously estimated 18M per train, but my split across day/night trains was wrong.)
A320: 42M Euros for 180 passengers, that's 233k per person for the hardware.

The aircraft is almost 5x as expensive per person - although the aircraft can be used more than 5x as much. The aicraft wins - but not by anywhere near as much as some are claiming. Admittedly, night trains aren't 100% occupied since people can book a 3-bed room for themselves, but then that passenger also gets charged more. In theory, the seated carriages on sleepers can be reused during the day - although that doesn't seem to be done all that much.

Now for a fair comparison, you'd need the full operating costs. I suspect that maintenance costs are also higher for aircraft (higher standards, needs to be disassembled more regularly than a train, etc.), but don't have numbers on that. And we all know how much more fuel flying uses. I'm not buying that flying is actually cheaper.

As you said you don’t have numbers about aircraft operation and maintenance I can help you.

An A320 has 3 standards of check, with increasing levels of intrusion, A being the lightest, C being the intermediate and a ‘Heavy Check’ being the most intrusive, basically strip down the aircraft and rebuild.

The checks required for A and C can be spread around the maintenance cycle to reduce downtime. But, typically, a aircraft will have some form of A check every week or so, such that they are all covered every 600 flying hours (roughly 8 weeks); each ‘part’ A check every week or so will see the aircraft out of service for 6-24 hours, but usually overnight. C checks need to be done every 6000 flying hours - about every 18months. Were the C check to be done all in one go the aircraft would be out for 3 weeks, but again activities are split up throughout the 18 month period. Airlines have discretion as to how this is done so long as the checks are done within flying hours limit.

The Heavy check is done every 6 years, many airlines will combine this with the C Check to save a trip to the workshop. The aircraft will be out for up to 8 weeks spending on the scale of repairs needed, and if a cabin or systems refit is taking place concurrently, but usually less.

The reason I’ve said all this is that it is reasonably close to rolling stock maintenance principles, ie light maintenance, heavy maintenance, overhaul & refurb. Looking at the airbus schedules, I would say they are out of revenue service for less time, and I suspect the maintenance cost on an A320 is cheaper than on a rake of sleeper coaches. It’s also fair to say that because of the higher standards in the airline industry, critical components go wrong much less often, and need less time out for unscheduled repair. (Compare the number of times trains have a complete failure of all traction equipment to airlines having complete engine failure).

What is reasonably certain is that the operational cost of a plane is cheaper, including fuel. The fuel cost of a London - Scotland A320neo will be about £1100. Barcelona would be about £1500.

A London - Glasgow/Edinburgh Sleeper will use electricity, obviously, and it is not easy to estimate how much. I’ve done it two ways and come up with a range of costs between £800-£2000. London to Barcelona (say) would be twice as much, and that’s assuming conventional rather than high speed.

And sleepers need a lot more staff to run and service. All those rooms need cleaning, beds need making, laundry needs washing, etc.

And then there’s track access charges, which are much higher than airlines equivalent (airport landing / terminal processing charges), as there’s a lot less infrastructure to maintain and replace.

There is absolutely no doubt that if you want to shift 500 people from London to, say Barcelona, it would be cheaper in cost terms to use 3 aircraft than two night trains (that would necessarily have a lot of seats), or four ‘sleeper heavy’ night trains. I also suspect it would be cheaper than one day train, but that will be a closer call.

Indeed. Although member states may apply their relevant rate to domestic air travel, as long as otherwise compliant. I think the Germans do.

Many do. The Germans, notably, also charge VAT on train tickets, albeit this has recently been reduced.
 
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