Calls for Borders Railway extension to stop at Langholm

[och aye]

Not sure if they are arguing for the plans to skip Newcastleton and go through Langholm instead (which is what the town wanted back when the original line was originally being planned) or they want to get the branch line back?

Still, it seems to me to be one of those "I'll believe it, when I see it!" type of rail campaigns.

Personally, if campaigners can get the line down to Hawick at some point this decade, that will be an achievement.

Calls for Borders Railway extension to stop at Langholm | ITV News

The Langholm & District Rail Group say claims the town has lost thousands of jobs in the last 20 years and would benefit if a station was opened there. | ITV News Border

www.itv.com

Community leaders in Langholm are calling for the town to be considered as the route of extension for the Borders Railway to Carlisle.

The Langholm & District Rail Group say claims the town has lost around 12,000 jobs in the last 20 years and would benefit hugely if a station was opened there.

The original southern stretch of the line, which was closed in 1969, took in Melrose, Hawick and Newcastleton.

 

[hexagon789]

Not sure if they are arguing for the plans to skip Newcastleton and go through Langholm instead (which is what the town wanted back when the original line was originally being planned) or they want to get the branch line back?

Still, it seems to me to be one of those "I'll believe it, when I see it!" type of rail campaigns.

Personally, if campaigners can get the line down to Hawick at some point this decade, that will be an achievement.

Calls for Borders Railway extension to stop at Langholm | ITV News

The Langholm & District Rail Group say claims the town has lost thousands of jobs in the last 20 years and would benefit if a station was opened there. | ITV News Border

www.itv.com

Would be better to build through to Carlisle in my view, with at least Hawick and Melrose getting a station. Does Langholm warrant re-opening or would it be another potential Reston?

 

[och aye]

Would be better to build through to Carlisle in my view, with at least Hawick and Melrose getting a station. Does Langholm warrant re-opening or would it be another potential Reston?

Perhaps if the Langholm branch was reinstated, Northern could serve a Scottish station. Langholm to Leeds anyone?

 

[Journeyman]

I'm still not convinced there's even a remotely good case for going beyond Hawick, and even that's a bit iffy.

 

[hexagon789]

Perhaps if the Langholm branch was reinstated, Northern could serve a Scottish station. Langholm to Leeds anyone?

Perfect excuse for more 195s!

I'm still not convinced there's even a remotely good case for going beyond Hawick, and even that's a bit iffy.

What was the case for the stations on the line that have been re-opened? Was Stow a good case for re-opening given its only served by every second train?

Surely Hawick would be a better case than Stow was?

 

[Bald Rick]

Twelve thousand jobs lost in the past 20 years, in a town with a population of 2,000?

Can anyone else smell something?

 

[adrock1976]

Twelve thousand jobs lost in the past 20 years, in a town with a population of 2,000?

Can anyone else smell something?

Yes.

A whole load of bovine dumps combined with urine.

This is a case where Langholm would be best served by a bus to/from Carlisle or Berwick upon Tweed integrated with the rail fares system if not already so.

 

[47271]

This topic looked familiar to me in that I did a bit of investigating the last time Langholm came up, a lot longer ago than I thought, it turns out November 2015. I see that I got a bit of a pop in for an alternative scheme at the end, I have no recollection of doing that, but I stand by what I said!

The A7 gets to about 850ft at the Borders/D&G boundary between Hawick and Langholm, a distance of 23 miles hemmed in by rivers at either end and hills in the middle, and extremely costly to build a brand new railway through. Langholm to Carlisle is a further 20 miles or so with only Canonbie and Longtown of any significance along the way.

The old Waverley route went to over 1,000ft at Whitrope Summit but in more open countryside. Langholm has a population of just over 2,000 versus Newcastleton's 800 or so on the original line, as the main centres of population neither are going to provide enough traffic to justify the project going beyond Hawick.

By way of comparison, and if we're looking for a project of this scale to keep us busy, the same 43 route miles on existing trackbed would allow reconnection of Aberdeen to Ellon, Peterhead and Fraserburgh, a combined population of around 40,000 within those three towns alone.

 

[PG]

Twelve thousand jobs lost in the past 20 years, in a town with a population of 2,000?

Can anyone else smell something?

I'm struggling to even find an online presence of the Langholm and District rail group in order to ascertain where this 12K figure materialised from? Does the group exist?

 

[Journeyman]

Twelve thousand jobs lost in the past 20 years, in a town with a population of 2,000?

Can anyone else smell something?

Sounds like Peter O'Hanraha-Hanrahan has been covering this story.

 

[backontrack]

Not sure if they are arguing for the plans to skip Newcastleton and go through Langholm instead...

This is basically the infamous 'rail trolley problem', isn't it? You either divert from the original alignment, or you leave a greater population without a service. Langholm's twice the size, but Newcastleton is very significant to the Border Union railway from a historic perspective, and it's therefore quite emotionally charged for the Waverly Route reopening activists - perhaps nearly as much as Hawick is. Also it's much closer to Kielder Forest. But then a routing via Langholm would be quicker, and therefore more competitive.

Talking about the line in these terms sounds dangerously like advocacy to some (mwahaha!!!! i'm going to spend YOUR money on a line that doesn't even go near your house!!! ) so I'll stop it right here. In any case, either option is unlikely, because whether you go via Newcastleton or via Langholm you're still only going to have three stations between Carlisle and Hawick. (But if you have to choose one, then Langholm makes more sense, seeing as there's no obstructionary Caledonian Railway presence anymore.) I think the railway will reach Hawick - perhaps Hawick's residents should be glad the line hasn't made it to Melrose yet, because the incentive to reach Melrose creates a better case for extension as a whole - but then when it does, we'll find that there's little incentive to continue from there. The aforementioned low population density between Hawick and Carlisle is obviously a significant factor too - the geographical watershed is south of Hawick as a whole.

People talk about extending the line southwards in a general sense, but the collective want to go southwards is going to decrease as each new community gets its station. Contrary to popular belief, Carlisle isn't tiny - it's still an important regional centre - but the aftermath of the pandemic is going to disproportionately disincentivise Borders-Carlisle flows comparatively to Borders-Edinburgh flows. That impedance rate (so to speak) is yet to be seen, but it does make a reopened BUR a far more distant prospect (arguably not even a prospect at all). I also doubt that Westminster would look kindly on reopening the stretch between Carlisle and Canonbie given the good PR that a fully-reopened Waverley Route would doubtless give the Scottish Government.

But the fragile state of the union may change things. The Borders Railways is intriguingly politically-charged due to its unique status as a potentially cross-border project - and for the volume of spin it's been able to generate so far. (It's undeniably succeeded, but there's been much wrangling in both the minutiae of its execution and in terms of which political parties get credit.) At Westminster, Dumfriesshire/Clydesdale/Tweeddale is the only Tory safe seat in Scotland, but David Mundell's majority has narrowed significantly. At Holyrood, meanwhile, Mundell's son Oliver has a wafer-thin majority in the Dumfriesshire seat going into this summer's Holyrood elections. So the Scottish Tories might sense an opportunity there. With the possibility of Indyref2 barely being out of the Scottish papers these days, I think it's still one to keep tabs on, even if there are multiple projects in Scotland (Levenmouth/Buchan/Kinross/Kilmacolm/St Andrews) which would be much more worthwhile.

 

[daodao]

Rebuilding the line from Hawick to Carlisle is futile. At some point in the not too distant future, such a line is likely to cross a hard border between the EU and little England. The future for existing railways crossing hard borders is not bright, so reconstructing another one is in LaLa land.

 

[Bald Rick]

Rebuilding the line from Hawick to Carlisle is futile. At some point in the not too distant future, such a line is likely to cross a hard border between the EU and little England.

After Scotland leaves the Union and England rejoins the EU?

As others have said, there is no chance of tis railway happening. The case for the existing Borders railway was rather worse than marginal. The case for extending South is non existent. Well over a billion quid to serve no purpose.

 

[Millisle]

It is said, at least in the rest of Dumfriesshire, that the opinion of Langholmites is that a day out of Langholm is a day wasted. So that would not promise a lot of business.
On the other hand, the town was attached to its railway. At the site of the station there is a small monument set up commemorating the date of the last passenger train, and as part of the Common Riding there is still a parade with band to the station at the former time of arrival of the final train of the day to greet townsfolk returning by it for the festival.
I think the number of jobs lost simply had an accidental extra zero at the end.

 

[geordieblue]

It is said, at least in the rest of Dumfriesshire, that the opinion of Langholmites is that a day out of Langholm is a day wasted. So that would not promise a lot of business.
On the other hand, the town was attached to its railway. At the site of the station there is a small monument set up commemorating the date of the last passenger train, and as part of the Common Riding there is still a parade with band to the station at the former time of arrival of the final train of the day to greet townsfolk returning by it for the festival.
I think the number of jobs lost simply had an accidental extra zero at the end.

Even one extra zero seems slightly out of proportion; a town with 2,000 population is unlikely to even have 1,200 people of working age there anyway, unless literally everybody lost their jobs.

 

[och aye]

It is said, at least in the rest of Dumfriesshire, that the opinion of Langholmites is that a day out of Langholm is a day wasted. So that would not promise a lot of business.
On the other hand, the town was attached to its railway. At the site of the station there is a small monument set up commemorating the date of the last passenger train, and as part of the Common Riding there is still a parade with band to the station at the former time of arrival of the final train of the day to greet townsfolk returning by it for the festival.
I think the number of jobs lost simply had an accidental extra zero at the end.

Wow! Is there anywhere else in the country that marks the passing of their former railway station?

This is basically the infamous 'rail trolley problem', isn't it? You either divert from the original alignment, or you leave a greater population without a service. Langholm's twice the size, but Newcastleton is very significant to the Border Union railway from a historic perspective, and it's therefore quite emotionally charged for the Waverly Route reopening activists - perhaps nearly as much as Hawick is. Also it's much closer to Kielder Forest. But then a routing via Langholm would be quicker, and therefore more competitive.

Talking about the line in these terms sounds dangerously like advocacy to some (mwahaha!!!! i'm going to spend YOUR money on a line that doesn't even go near your house!!! ) so I'll stop it right here. In any case, either option is unlikely, because whether you go via Newcastleton or via Langholm you're still only going to have three stations between Carlisle and Hawick. (But if you have to choose one, then Langholm makes more sense, seeing as there's no obstructionary Caledonian Railway presence anymore.) I think the railway will reach Hawick - perhaps Hawick's residents should be glad the line hasn't made it to Melrose yet, because the incentive to reach Melrose creates a better case for extension as a whole - but then when it does, we'll find that there's little incentive to continue from there. The aforementioned low population density between Hawick and Carlisle is obviously a significant factor too - the geographical watershed is south of Hawick as a whole.

People talk about extending the line southwards in a general sense, but the collective want to go southwards is going to decrease as each new community gets its station. Contrary to popular belief, Carlisle isn't tiny - it's still an important regional centre - but the aftermath of the pandemic is going to disproportionately disincentivise Borders-Carlisle flows comparatively to Borders-Edinburgh flows. That impedance rate (so to speak) is yet to be seen, but it does make a reopened BUR a far more distant prospect (arguably not even a prospect at all). I also doubt that Westminster would look kindly on reopening the stretch between Carlisle and Canonbie given the good PR that a fully-reopened Waverley Route would doubtless give the Scottish Government.

But the fragile state of the union may change things. The Borders Railways is intriguingly politically-charged due to its unique status as a potentially cross-border project - and for the volume of spin it's been able to generate so far. (It's undeniably succeeded, but there's been much wrangling in both the minutiae of its execution and in terms of which political parties get credit.) At Westminster, Dumfriesshire/Clydesdale/Tweeddale is the only Tory safe seat in Scotland, but David Mundell's majority has narrowed significantly. At Holyrood, meanwhile, Mundell's son Oliver has a wafer-thin majority in the Dumfriesshire seat going into this summer's Holyrood elections. So the Scottish Tories might sense an opportunity there. With the possibility of Indyref2 barely being out of the Scottish papers these days, I think it's still one to keep tabs on, even if there are multiple projects in Scotland (Levenmouth/Buchan/Kinross/Kilmacolm/St Andrews) which would be much more worthwhile.

As you allude to, I think "politics" would be the only way for a line from Hawick to Carlisle (including Langholm or not).

Slightly off topic and some slightly hypothetical talk, but I wonder if the Langholm branch had survived, if it would be a reasonably used line today.

 

[Millisle]

Even one extra zero seems slightly out of proportion; a town with 2,000 population is unlikely to even have 1,200 people of working age there anyway, unless literally everybody lost their jobs.

I agree. I suspect it is a generous gross rather than net estimate over 20 years not deducting all jobs created over the same period. In any event Langholm has lost the bulk of its manufacturing, mainly woollens, now.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the number of jobs lost simply had an accidental extra zero at the end.

Even then, if it’s 1,200, there is a question about how they think the railway could help. How many new jobs (net) have been created in Tweedbank / Gala since the Borders line opened?

 

[Millisle]

You misunderstand me. I do not accept their argument at all. It is naive and detached from transport reality. Reopening via Newcastleton is entirely unjustified; the idea of a new line via Mosspaul and Teviothead is frankly nuts.
I was merely reflecting on how things might seem in the small bubble of Langholm.

 

[Bald Rick]

You misunderstand me. I do not accept their argument at all. It is naive and detached from transport reality. Reopening via Newcastleton is entirely unjustified; the idea of a new line via Mosspaul and Teviothead is frankly nuts.
I was merely reflecting on how things might seem in the small bubble of Langholm.

Sorry, I wasn’t arguing; just using your post as a hook for mine!

 

[Millisle]

No worries. I imagine their thinking is fairly diffuse and the mechanics of how a railway would contribute are probably pretty vague. Even getting a line through the town would require a fair amount of demolition. They are well meaning folk led by a well respected retired councillor who have seen their little town go downhill economically over 30 years and just think this would be an idea that would help.