Calmac / Northlink Ferry discussion

[43055]

Bad news, she’s going back to dry dock with no prediction as to when she’ll re-enter service.

From a CalMac Facebook group which is public.

Calmac ferries (Friends) | Facebook

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Further delays...
"I am getting in touch to let you know that MV Caledonian Isles is returning to drydock. Following attendance by divers yesterday and discussions with the manufacturer, the vessel will now be moved to drydock in the next stage of efforts to resolve the ongoing issue with pressure levels in the propulsion system.
Service impact
We had MV Caledonian Isles in the system from Wednesday 25 June. We are unable to confirm a return to service date until the vessel has been docked and inspected.
From that inspection, there are a range of scenarios and outcomes which could see a fix take anything from a few days to significantly longer. To give certainty to communities and customers, we are working at speed to review deployment plans for the next few weeks and will publish any amendments to timetables early next week. We see three phases of deployment plans, detailed below.
We have shared this update with the whole network, but recognise it is most important to Arran.
Phase 1
Between now and 6 July, MV Alfred and MV Glen Sannox will continue to operate Arran’s service with no other changes. Arran will have a single-vessel service with MV Glen Sannox for one day next week – Wednesday 25 June. This is due to MV Alfred requiring an essential day off-service for mandatory MES training.
Phase 2
MV Alfred requires essential maintenance, which has already been delayed once to support network requirements, between 7 and 21 July.
MV Lord of the Isles is due to be off-service for three days between 9 and 11 July for cylinder head works in Oban too.
Therefore, deployment plans to cover all routes for this period are being developed and more information will follow on these next week.
Phase 3
From 22 July until 18 September (when MV Isle of Arran goes to annual overhaul), we will again develop a plan for this period once we have more information available.
Everyone at CalMac is really disappointed we do not have the vessel back in service. I am sorry that Arran continues to experience disruption, particularly on Wednesday 25 June."

 

[mpthomson]

Bad news, she’s going back to dry dock with no prediction as to when she’ll re-enter service.

Apparently not until at least September. Allegedly a bent prop shaft from something I’ve seen but we’ll wait for proper confirmation.

 

[Cloud Strife]

are they simply seeing this as the Scottish government paying the costs of the procurement of the new vessel via the back door and a charter agreement?

Andrew Banks is an excellent businessman, and the charter will have paid off the loans for the ship (and then some) by the time it finally ends. While Pentalina has a smaller capacity, they've added more sailings to cater for that, so it hasn't really had a detrimental effect on Pentland Ferries as a whole. In fact, I'd say that this charter is pretty much securing Pentland Ferries for the next 15-20 years while giving the Scottish Government a real headache about the future of the Stromness-Scrabster route.

Apparently not until at least September. Allegedly a bent prop shaft from something I’ve seen but we’ll wait for proper confirmation.

This is nothing short of a disaster for Arran and CalMac as a whole. The fleet is stretched almost to breaking point now, and one mishap elsewhere on the network is going to cause an untold amount of chaos this summer. It's possible that it's not a big repair, but CalMac surely know what they're looking at and they wouldn't be mentioning September (or later) if it was something minor.

I just wonder if they won't pull the plug on Caley Isles now. Arran doesn't need anything more than Glen Sannox and Alfred from September until June, Glen Rosa might (although I doubt it) be ready for next summer, and the Turkish ships will start to arrive too. At the same time, we don't know who is accepting responsibility for the latest issues, and it might turn out that it's not costing CMAL anything for the repairs.

 

[BayPaul]

Andrew Banks is an excellent businessman, and the charter will have paid off the loans for the ship (and then some) by the time it finally ends. While Pentalina has a smaller capacity, they've added more sailings to cater for that, so it hasn't really had a detrimental effect on Pentland Ferries as a whole. In fact, I'd say that this charter is pretty much securing Pentland Ferries for the next 15-20 years while giving the Scottish Government a real headache about the future of the Stromness-Scrabster route.



This is nothing short of a disaster for Arran and CalMac as a whole. The fleet is stretched almost to breaking point now, and one mishap elsewhere on the network is going to cause an untold amount of chaos this summer. It's possible that it's not a big repair, but CalMac surely know what they're looking at and they wouldn't be mentioning September (or later) if it was something minor.

I just wonder if they won't pull the plug on Caley Isles now. Arran doesn't need anything more than Glen Sannox and Alfred from September until June, Glen Rosa might (although I doubt it) be ready for next summer, and the Turkish ships will start to arrive too. At the same time, we don't know who is accepting responsibility for the latest issues, and it might turn out that it's not costing CMAL anything for the repairs.

The plan is for Caley Islds to become the Mull ship. I bet they wish they never started the repairs now and just ordered a 5th Turkish ship.

 

[Blindtraveler]

What's the betting that someone isn't already on the phone to the Turkish shipyard? Basically saying can we have another couple? I always thought they should have ordered six of those given how versatile they're meant to be
As for Andrew Banks and petland ferries, I would certainly agree that they've got their head screwed on in matters of business. I can see strongness certainly being looked at again when the existing northlink tonnage is replaced, little point. I suspect in doing it now, but one of the biggest objections that will be put up by locals and I should imagine a number of freight customers is the fact that to access PF from the orkney end you have to negotiate the highly weather susceptible Churchill barriers. If PF would be willing to relocate to use the strongness port facilities that might be an option, but again The crossing they currently use is according to them at least far less likely to be cancelled in the event of bad weather. But certainly when you take a look at it from a position of 25 years ago, nobody ever envisaged that. Such a service could operate commercially and sustain itself. It is certainly a talking point

 

[Cloud Strife]

The plan is for Caley Islds to become the Mull ship. I bet they wish they never started the repairs now and just ordered a 5th Turkish ship.

Yeah, it's pretty clear now that the damage has been so severe and difficult to resolve that it didn't make any sense at all to spend so much time on a vessel that's already over 30 years old. She can (and will be) very useful on the Mull run with her huge passenger capacity, but having a fifth Turkish ship would be the less problematic route by far.

What's the betting that someone isn't already on the phone to the Turkish shipyard? Basically saying can we have another couple? I always thought they should have ordered six of those given how versatile they're meant to be

Wouldn't surprise me at all. They're exactly what CalMac needs for most routes: high levels of car capacity, but relatively low passenger capacity. The major sticking point for most routes are car lane capacity, not passenger capacity, with the exception of a few weekends a year for various events.

If PF would be willing to relocate to use the strongness port facilities that might be an option, but again The crossing they currently use is according to them at least far less likely to be cancelled in the event of bad weather. But certainly when you take a look at it from a position of 25 years ago, nobody ever envisaged that. Such a service could operate commercially and sustain itself. It is certainly a talking point

It's certainly an interesting question as to why the Scottish Government keep subsidising Scrabster-Stromness when there's a perfectly good alternative available. Yes, the terminals in Gills Bay and St Margaret's Hope are as basic as they come, but paying for improvements there would be cheaper than building a new ship for Northlink. The only 'but' is that Northlink handle a lot of freight, and Pentland Ferries would probably need another Alfred to be able to handle it.

 

[43055]

I just wonder if they won't pull the plug on Caley Isles now. Arran doesn't need anything more than Glen Sannox and Alfred from September until June, Glen Rosa might (although I doubt it) be ready for next summer, and the Turkish ships will start to arrive too. At the same time, we don't know who is accepting responsibility for the latest issues, and it might turn out that it's not costing CMAL anything for the repairs.

The plan is for the Cal Isles to go on the Oban - Mull route. I do wonder what if they can't solve the issue. Could they keep the Isle of Lewis and then have Hebrides or Clansman on Mull instead?

 

[Cloud Strife]

The plan is for the Cal Isles to go on the Oban - Mull route. I do wonder what if they can't solve the issue. Could they keep the Isle of Lewis and then have Hebrides or Clansman on Mull instead?

It's possible that Hebrides could take on the Mull route along with Clansman, but I'm not sure that CalMac would want to have two large vessels instead of one larger one and one smaller one on such a route, as they would have problems replacing one of them in the event of breakdown. The problem with Mull is that traffic keeps growing, although the gossip suggests that RET is on the way out for non-islanders after the next election and so demand might be suppressed that way.

They'll need a replacement for Isle of Mull which is pretty much being held together with sticky tape at this point, so it's really hard to see what could happen, as it's not really an option to keep Isle of Arran on the Mull route as well.

My crystal ball at this time suggests that CMAL might give up on returning Caley Isles to Arran, with Troon simply becoming the permanent port and abandoning Ardrossan for vehicular traffic. They could easily source a fast passenger-only ferry to handle passengers for Ardrossan, leaving the new Glen twins to handle vehicles only.

 

[Blindtraveler]

There's nothing stopping the Glenn twins accepting foot passengers should they wish to use that port. But as you say, a passenger catamaran or similar from the other would make a deal of sense. I suspect the complete looney bin decision of selling Isla Lewis will also be reversed at this point

On the side topic of PF and northlink at stromness, it would not surprise me if they downgrade this to a freight only service on which discounted fares or whatever as a lifeline, freight operation could be levied and leave the passenger traffic PF, the only issue would be on days when PF could not operate, but the other route could, perhaps need to keep some standby provision for strom nest to carry passengers on these days. Albeit that, I suspect if they did go freight only the ship facilities would be much more basic than currently.

 

[43055]

It's possible that Hebrides could take on the Mull route along with Clansman, but I'm not sure that CalMac would want to have two large vessels instead of one larger one and one smaller one on such a route, as they would have problems replacing one of them in the event of breakdown. The problem with Mull is that traffic keeps growing, although the gossip suggests that RET is on the way out for non-islanders after the next election and so demand might be suppressed that way.

They'll need a replacement for Isle of Mull which is pretty much being held together with sticky tape at this point, so it's really hard to see what could happen, as it's not really an option to keep Isle of Arran on the Mull route as well.

My crystal ball at this time suggests that CMAL might give up on returning Caley Isles to Arran, with Troon simply becoming the permanent port and abandoning Ardrossan for vehicular traffic. They could easily source a fast passenger-only ferry to handle passengers for Ardrossan, leaving the new Glen twins to handle vehicles only.

I believe one of the Hebrides or Clansman is doing Coll/Tiree/Colonsay with the other planned to take over Castlebay from Isle of Lewis. My thoughts being by keeping the Lewis would allow one of the pair to run the Mull route alongside Loch Frisa in place of the Cal Isles.

 

[Indigo Soup]

What's the betting that someone isn't already on the phone to the Turkish shipyard? Basically saying can we have another couple? I always thought they should have ordered six of those given how versatile they're meant to be

FWIW, there was meant to be a common class of six at one point, but that might have been before 801/802 were ordered.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I suspect that by the end of the year they will have rolled back on their decision to sell the Lewis

 

[Grinner]

I suspect that by the end of the year they will have rolled back on their decision to sell the Lewis

In fairness I think this was only ever stated to be the most likely option rather than a firm decision. IoL is too large to be used on most routes, and can't carry certain cargoes due to her enclosed deck. However I agree that given the issues with Caley Isles and Isle of Mull, it probably does make sense to keep IoL on the Barra run, and use either Clansman or Hebrides as the main Mull vessel.

 

[BayPaul]

In fairness I think this was only ever stated to be the most likely option rather than a firm decision. IoL is too large to be used on most routes, and can't carry certain cargoes due to her enclosed deck. However I agree that given the issues with Caley Isles and Isle of Mull, it probably does make sense to keep IoL on the Barra run, and use either Clansman or Hebrides as the main Mull vessel.

I hope they don't do that. Isle of Lewis is really too big for Barra traffic levels, and very inflexible. I would like to see Barra and South Uist ferries combined again, to give a better range of services (i.e both isles served from both Oban and Mallaig), which isn't possible with Isle of Lewis.

Clansman and Hebrides are probably a bit small passenger capacity wise for Mull, they'd be a 1/3 capacity drop, which I suspect would be an issue considering the big tour groups to Iona.

For my mind, if they keep the Lewis, it should be on the Mull run, with a small (and probably fairly cheap) pier extension at Craignure.

 

[Arriva Fan]

I hope they don't do that. Isle of Lewis is really too big for Barra traffic levels, and very inflexible. I would like to see Barra and South Uist ferries combined again, to give a better range of services (i.e both isles served from both Oban and Mallaig), which isn't possible with Isle of Lewis.

Clansman and Hebrides are probably a bit small passenger capacity wise for Mull, they'd be a 1/3 capacity drop, which I suspect would be an issue considering the big tour groups to Iona.

For my mind, if they keep the Lewis, it should be on the Mull run, with a small (and probably fairly cheap) pier extension at Craignure.

The problem with that become, Craignure is not a CMAL Facility. You could end up with a situation similar to Ardrossan, with the Owner not carrying out Infrastructure Improvements.

 

[BayPaul]

The problem with that become, Craignure is not a CMAL Facility. You could end up with a situation similar to Ardrossan, with the Owner not carrying out Infrastructure Improvements.

Good point, and explains why it has never happened before!

 

[Cloud Strife]

The problem with that become, Craignure is not a CMAL Facility. You could end up with a situation similar to Ardrossan, with the Owner not carrying out Infrastructure Improvements.

Craignure is due to be upgraded by Argyll & Bute Council anyway, so it's not a problem. The existing pier is in pretty poor condition (where have we heard this before...?) and needs quite a bit of expensive repair work regardless of what happens, so the council are just going ahead and rebuilding the entire thing.

Generally speaking though, cooperation between CMAL and the council-owned ports isn't a problem. Ardrossan is a problem because of Peel essentially wanting to get the whole thing financed by the public sector while still retaining the wider harbour area, whereas the Scottish Government wisely won't accept such a crap deal when Troon is available for peanuts.

 

[Blindtraveler]

So then. Logic and common sense dictates, which means it will probably never happen Lewis and a smaller vessel running mull, the only requirement of the smaller vessel being to have some outside vehicle deck capacity for the transportation of hazardous goods due to Lewis's fully enclosed vehicle decks, mull and Caledonian isles to insert favoured scrap yard here, what does that leave out of the large vessel fleet that's not about to be replaced in the next 4 years tops

 

[Cloud Strife]

what does that leave out of the large vessel fleet that's not about to be replaced in the next 4 years tops

Isle of Arran will be scrapped too once everything arrives. The problem is that they still need one more major vessel if the Caley Isles doesn't sail again, because Isle of Lewis would be far better off being used on the Oban - Castlebay run due to her (relatively) limited passenger capacity compared to the Caley Isles.

One possibility is that they will order two new vessels to replace Isle of Arran and Lord of the Isles - she also needs replaced, and having two new sisters that can get into ports like Mallaig and Lochboisdale will be incredibly helpful for the future.

It's quite interesting how much depends on whether Caley Isles can actually get back into service or not. If she does get fixed properly and everything is working well, there's no reason why she wouldn't be able to do another 10+ years on the Mull run while still providing cover for the Arran route.

 

[mpthomson]

Isle of Arran will be scrapped too once everything arrives. The problem is that they still need one more major vessel if the Caley Isles doesn't sail again, because Isle of Lewis would be far better off being used on the Oban - Castlebay run due to her (relatively) limited passenger capacity compared to the Caley Isles.

One possibility is that they will order two new vessels to replace Isle of Arran and Lord of the Isles - she also needs replaced, and having two new sisters that can get into ports like Mallaig and Lochboisdale will be incredibly helpful for the future.

It's quite interesting how much depends on whether Caley Isles can actually get back into service or not. If she does get fixed properly and everything is working well, there's no reason why she wouldn't be able to do another 10+ years on the Mull run while still providing cover for the Arran route.

The word ‘If’ is doing a huge amount of heavy lifting there…

 

[BayPaul]

So then. Logic and common sense dictates, which means it will probably never happen Lewis and a smaller vessel running mull, the only requirement of the smaller vessel being to have some outside vehicle deck capacity for the transportation of hazardous goods due to Lewis's fully enclosed vehicle decks, mull and Caledonian isles to insert favoured scrap yard here, what does that leave out of the large vessel fleet that's not about to be replaced in the next 4 years tops

There's no need for the Oban to Mull ship to have an open deck, as hazardous can come in via Lochaline - Fishnish, though obviously Loch Frisia also provides this.

Isle of Arran will be scrapped too once everything arrives. The problem is that they still need one more major vessel if the Caley Isles doesn't sail again, because Isle of Lewis would be far better off being used on the Oban - Castlebay run due to her (relatively) limited passenger capacity compared to the Caley Isles.

One possibility is that they will order two new vessels to replace Isle of Arran and Lord of the Isles - she also needs replaced, and having two new sisters that can get into ports like Mallaig and Lochboisdale will be incredibly helpful for the future.

It's quite interesting how much depends on whether Caley Isles can actually get back into service or not. If she does get fixed properly and everything is working well, there's no reason why she wouldn't be able to do another 10+ years on the Mull run while still providing cover for the Arran route.

They really don't need that many new vessels. Isle of Arran is being replaced by a new Turkish vessel, and Isle of Lewis by Hebrides. LOTI will then be the next due for replacement, with design work already done. Keeping Caledonian Isles (or isle of Lewis if Caley is dead) makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately, by replacing most of their fleet over just a few years, CMAL have put themselves on a difficult path for the future. With 15 large and mid-sized ships in the Calmac fleet, with around 30 year lifespans, they should have a rolling programme, replacing one every 2 years, not this mess!

 

[Cloud Strife]

The word ‘If’ is doing a huge amount of heavy lifting there…

Unfortunately, CMAL are in a pretty dire situation fleet-wise. The small vessels are fine, but the situation with the large vessels is incredibly difficult to deal with. If the Glens had entered service as planned, CMAL would have had some breathing room, but now they're relying on the Turkish vessels entering service without any major issues.

Keeping Caledonian Isles (or isle of Lewis if Caley is dead) makes a lot of sense.

I've looked around, and it seems that Isle of Lewis is more than capable of handling most of the large vessel routes without any problems. The only issue I can see is that she'd be quite low on passenger capacity for Mull, but it's not the end of the world if Caley Isles is indeed headed for the scrapyard.

With 15 large and mid-sized ships in the Calmac fleet, with around 30 year lifespans, they should have a rolling programme, replacing one every 2 years, not this mess!

Honestly, what happened to CalMac from the early 1990s onwards has been nothing short of a disgrace. It's not the fault of the management, it's just a simple lack of investment from all quarters, combined with a failure to modernise the operation to reflect modern realities.

I can give a comparison: I took the Alslinjen service in Denmark from Fynshav to Bøjden last year. The port in Fynshav had nothing more than a ticket machine, with the ticket office being available for use but unmanned. To enter the waiting area for cars, you could drive up and use an electronic tag (same as used on toll motorways or bridges/tunnels), use a credit card, or just scan a QR code on your ticket that you obtained online or from the ticket machine. When you entered the waiting area, you simply queued up as normal, and when the ferry arrived, the entire operation was incredibly slick: it can't have been more than 10 minutes in port. The crew waved most cars straight onto the ferry without checking tickets (as they'd already been checked on entry to the marshalling area) and only a few cars were chosen for a spot check of their ticket as it was possible to join the queue without passing through the entrance to the marshalling area.

In terms of check-in and so on, there's a 15 minute check-in across the board to be guaranteed entry to your chosen ferry. CalMac in comparison is at 30 minutes for vehicles, which really makes no sense for the ferries where advance bookings are normal and specific sailings have to be booked. CalMac are also still relying on staff manually scanning tickets rather than using automatic entry systems, both for vehicles and for foot passengers, even at the most modern ports like Brodick.