Cambridge guided busway

[CockneySparrow]

In fairness, though, that sort of proves the point that it's been good for bus services. I mean, if it wasn't more profitable to do so, Stagecoach wouldn't have bothered routing services down it.

Whether things might have been even better with it opened as a rail line is a different matter entirely.

If I lived in St Ives I doubt I would use it to catch a train, I would probably drive to Ely and get the train from there or Huntingdon if I was going north or to London

Having said that though I might go to the Oakington market this Saturday, think you can get a through ticket from Ely to St Ives with network card discount

 

[L&Y Robert]

Wasn't one of the reasons for it being a bus way was the government offering a lot of money towards the cost for it to be a trial.

How do construction costs differ between conventional railway, tramway and guided bus-way? Same, or very similar formations, lots of concrete for the bus-way, rather less for the tramway and railway but steel rails as well. Lots of other things to be costed I know, but somebody has done it and indeed will do it again! We used to call it Cost-Benefit Analysis. And how do you price up Political Will?

 

[Squaddie]

Whether things might have been even better with it opened as a rail line is a different matter entirely.

I think most people would probably prefer a frequent local bus service along a busway to an hourly train service along a re-opened railway: not everyone is nostalgic for lost railway lines.

 

[HowardGWR]

I think most people would probably prefer a frequent local bus service along a busway to an hourly train service along a re-opened railway: not everyone is nostalgic for lost railway lines.

Why would a tram / train have to be less frequent than a bus?

 

[HSTEd]

How do construction costs differ between conventional railway, tramway and guided bus-way? Same, or very similar formations, lots of concrete for the bus-way, rather less for the tramway and railway but steel rails as well. Lots of other things to be costed I know, but somebody has done it and indeed will do it again! We used to call it Cost-Benefit Analysis. And how do you price up Political Will?

A busway can handle gradients that rail could never dream of handling though.

Why would a tram / train have to be less frequent than a bus?

Probably because a bus has rather lower minimum operating costs than a train.
A bus can be a dozen metres long or even less, bus drivers are paid rather less than train drivers, buses are cheaper than trains, the list goes on.

 

[Squaddie]

Why would a tram / train have to be less frequent than a bus?

There's no reason why a train would have to be less frequent than a bus but in reality it almost certainly would be.

 

[thegrimeater]

When it was being built I was against it and thought it was a waste of money. I've ridden on it once from St Ives to Cambridge city centre and thought it was fantastic. Very fast, free wifi and comfortable seats.

My fiance goes to Cambridge Regional College from St Ives and loves it as she can be at college from home in less than half an hour.

 

[Squaddie]

Very fast, free wifi and comfortable seats.

Busway 3, Pacer 0.

 

[eastdyke]

Busway 3, Pacer 0.

I traveled Cambridge - Huntingdon Station in the days just after opening. I am not sure if you can still do this on a single bus.

The contrast between the guided and unguided sections was stark.

The unguided section was neither fast nor comfortable.

Busway 2 (1 whole point and 2 half points), Pacer 1 (2 half points).

Nonetheless the guided busway has great flexibility to serve places off the main routes not offered by tracked/wired alternatives.

But in the final reckoning it would come down to the total number of people to be moved per day/hour whatever. Nobody would ever suggest replacing the GEML with a bus route, guided or otherwise! Would they?

 

[Squaddie]

The unguided section was neither fast nor comfortable.

I am not aware of any bus, anywhere, that is as uncomfortable or as noisy as a Pacer.

But in the final reckoning it would come down to the total number of people to be moved per day/hour whatever.

Not entirely, as you'd also have to take into account the number of passengers wishing to make intermediate journeys: there would necessarily be far fewer stops on a railway line than on a busway (guided or otherwise). Transport policy cannot be dictated by rail enthusiasts, who simply want everything to be replaced by trains.

 

[HSTEd]

Now all we need are guided trolleybuses....

 

[HowardGWR]

There's no reason why a train would have to be less frequent than a bus but in reality it almost certainly would be.

Why? Actually, I don't want to be a troll, but the reasons put up by HSTEd above just don't make sense to me. Trams are as frequent as buses, where needed, (Amsterdam, Manchester, just two examples).

 

[HSTEd]

Why? Actually, I don't want to be a troll, but the reasons put up by HSTEd above just don't make sense to me. Trams are as frequent as buses, where needed, (Amsterdam, Manchester, just two examples).

Manchester?
I wasn't aware they ran sixty+ trams per hour over the Metrolink.

The operating costs of a bus are far lower than of a train.
Compare an Optare Solo with a bus driver to a Class 153 (and once DDA comes in, a two car unit) with a train driver and probably a guard.

Which costs more to run?

If you have a certain ticket income available you can run more buses spread over the hour than you can trains.

 

[transmanche]

The operating costs of a bus are far lower than of a train.

And the operating costs of a tram are also lower than that of a train...

 

[HSTEd]

And the operating costs of a tram are also lower than that of a train...

Even a 22m Citadis Compact (the smallest tram I know of) is more expensive to run than a 7.1m Optare Solo.
And the Optare Solo can make climbs the tram could never dream of.

 

[transmanche]

And the Optare Solo can make climbs the tram could never dream of.

I didn't realise Cambridge was well known for its steep hills...

 

[HSTEd]

I didn't realise Cambridge was well known for its steep hills...

No, but I thought we were discussing busways generally at this point, as the person who triggered this line of conversation referenced 'most people' rather than just the denizens of Cambridge specifically.

 

[transmanche]

I wasn't aware they ran sixty+ trams per hour over the Metrolink

Is there any bus route which runes 60+ buses per hour? Or are there some highly selective comparisons being made?

 

[HSTEd]

Is there any bus route which runes 60+ buses per hour? Or are there some highly selective comparisons being made?

I am sitting roughly 100m from it.

Look up the Wilmslow Road bus corridor.

The off peak timetable looks something like:
6bph 42
6bph 43
6bph 142
6bph 143
6bph 147
6bph 85
6bph 86
6bph 111

And probably a few others I've forgotten about.

Then there are the peak extras to consider (where buses just rotate as fast as possible around the 142/143 loop).

 

[transmanche]

I am sitting roughly 100m from it.

Look up the Wilmslow Road bus corridor.

That's not a bus route. That's eight bus routes. Selective comparisons...

However, being as each tram has a much higher capacity than a bus - there's no way you'd need 60 tram services per hour to replace all those buses. Each Metrolink tram carries more than two busloads of passengers - a double tram carries almost five buses worth.

So far from needing 60 tram services an hour, suddenly you only need 12.

 

[OxtedL]

I'm not quite sure what argument HSTEd is trying to pull off, but trams would have been an extremely cunning trick to pull off in Cambridge - to be achieve what the busway has you'd have needed a huge amount of street running right from the outset, which would have been rather expensive and quite complex in a city with that much architectural sensitivity (old buildings, narrow roads, tight corners, etc.). The busway provides a vastly cheaper - and more politically acceptable - solution to the problem of the city centre, whilst also allowing buses to continue from what is now a busy transport corridor to Huntingdon, Peterborough, the lesser served streets of St Ives and a variety of surrounding villages.

Certainly, trying to swing this thread back towards the national rail network, it serves the corridor much better than a heavy rail would have, providing as it does good access to the city centre (from the perspective of those in St Ives and Huntingdon) with a very impressive frequency.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 192 bus service that passes through Stockport town centre has an extremely high frequency of services.

 

[HSTEd]

That's not a bus route. That's eight bus routes. Selective comparisons...

Selective comparisons?
If you want to call that eight bus routes then you are only permitted one tram 'route'.
That drops your maximum down to about six an hour probably.
The number of 142/143s (they are essentially the same route, they differ by a few hundred yards at one end) with the peak extras that are not in the official timetable but do run will likely beat that even in capacity terms.

However, being as each tram has a much higher capacity than a bus - there's no way you'd need 60 tram services per hour to replace all those buses. Each Metrolink tram carries more than two busloads of passengers - a double tram carries almost five buses worth.

Apparently the seated+standing capacity of an M500 is 198, putting a double unit at something just shy of 400.

The capacity of a Double Decker bus is at least 90 and in most cases in rush hour in Manchester easily exceeds 100.
So you are probably looking at at least 15 trams per hour, not 12.

So far from needing 60 tram services an hour, suddenly you only need 12.

And yet, since you claim that they are eight different routes it is only reasonable to assume that the trams must be split over 8 different routes and that people will not use ones on a different route.

Which means you are serving destinations with one tram every 45 minutes.

See how well that goes down?

 

[snowball]

I didn't realise Cambridge was well known for its steep hills...

Castle Hill seems pretty steep if you have to cycle up it. There's also Peas Hill and Market Hill.

In fact Cambridge is said to have been built on seven hills, like Rome. I've no idea what the other four are. There was probably a time when they were the only bits that stuck up out of the fens. Probably by about eighteen inches, except Castle Hill.

 

[HSTEd]

My argument is simple, a guided busway can provide a more frequent service than a heavy rail route can since it has lower operating costs and can thus afford to run more vehicles on the route than heavy or indeed light rail can.

Would the people on the busway rather have 4 or more buses per hour or a single train per hour?
That is the question we must answer.

 

[transmanche]

Selective comparisons?
If you want to call that eight bus routes then you are only permitted one tram 'route'.

Er no...

Apparently the seated+standing capacity of an M500 is 198, putting a double unit at something just shy of 400.

206, according to GMPTE. And of course, the tram is allowed to run crush loaded 'over capacity'.

The capacity of a Double Decker bus is at least 90 and in most cases in rush hour in Manchester easily exceeds 100.

A typical Stagecoach Manchester Enviro 400 11.4m seats 78. I reckon you'd have to have passengers on the roof in order to get 22 extra on board!

So yes, "a double tram carries almost five buses worth".

 

[OxtedL]

My argument is simple, a guided busway can provide a more frequent service than a heavy rail route can since it has lower operating costs and can thus afford to run more vehicles on the route than heavy or indeed light rail can.

That's quite a sensible argument to make. I'm not convinced that Cambridge to St Ives alone would have managed 6 trams an hour whilst maintaining a reasonable ticket price - the population distribution isn't quite right for that. Buses being incrementally cheaper is perhaps indeed the catalyst for the high frequencies that the busway sees.

Would the people on the busway rather have 4 or more buses per hour or a single train per hour?
That is the question we must answer.

It's borderline unconsidered comments like this that sometimes damage your arguments. It's unclear whether you refer to a specific busway or not, for example. The use of overly specific figures in quite general situations is bound to lead to debate, and I think is where most of the controversy against your viewpoint arose.

 

[yorksrob]

My argument is simple, a guided busway can provide a more frequent service than a heavy rail route can since it has lower operating costs and can thus afford to run more vehicles on the route than heavy or indeed light rail can.

Would the people on the busway rather have 4 or more buses per hour or a single train per hour?
That is the question we must answer.

That depends on a number of things.

The route through town can be a benefit, but if you want to directly access the railway network, the stops etc in the City centre might be less than optimal for some. This might even have been exacerbated had there been an option of extending an existing London service along the route. Also, it's not as though these towns wouldn't have already been served by buses into the town centre anyway.

In answer to your rhetorical question, there seem to be plenty of people using the railway around here for short hops (between Wakefield, Normanton and Castleford) in spite of there being more frequent bus services between all of these towns. Some people obviously seem to value the choice of modes.

Sadly I fear all future reopenings might now be scuppered by someone in Whitehall saying "why not put in one of these cheap busway thingy's".

Oh, the joy's of living in England.

 

[Deerfold]

The 192 bus service that passes through Stockport town centre has an extremely high frequency of services.

Though not nearly as high as it used to be (being 120 bph in the peak at one point if I recall correctly and having no significant overnight gaps). It's dropped as fewer companies compete and some buses have been renumbered into similar routes along the same corridor.

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/RouteMaps/192.pdf

 

[harry42]

The downside to guided bus ways....Luton:

Bit off topic but...