Cambridge-Liverpool Street lower fares- history

[jopsuk]

There's a minor fuss being made at the moment over the ticket machines at Cambridge and Cambridge North (the latter especially as there's no ticket office) defaulting to show "Liverpool Street Only" tickets first (being the cheapest) when most going to London want the faster Kings Cross trains (and at the weekend with a railcard there's only 5p difference).

This is about that though. I'm curious as to when the cheaper fares for the slower route started. Currently the tickets say "Liverpool Street only" under "Route", previously in my experience they've said "AGA only", "NXEA only" and "one only"* as far as I can remember. Was there a cheaper fare when WAGN ran both routes? Or in NSE days?

*the chesney hawkes route.

 

[MikeWh]

How long ago was the electrification? IIRC the Foxton to Cambridge section was just a branch line some years back and the only direct trains to London were via Bishops Stortford.

 

[Starmill]

Tickets route Liv St. Only are totally ridiculous. It should either be 'Greater Anglia Only' or 'Via Chesunt' or similar.

How is 'Liv St. Only' even a route? Presumably it means via London Liverpool Street? If so, why doesn't it say that? If not, what does it mean?

Therefore if you buy a Cambridge to London Zones 1-6 ticket (possibly a W SUP OPK DAYTC) and the route restriction is Via London Liverpool Street there is absolutely no reason why this excludes travel via Stevenage or on GTR services. All it means is that your journey has to go via Liverpool Street at some point, which it can do easily via London Kings Cross. It's a completely ridiculous thing to put in the route field.

 

[Hadders]

Another example of RDG simplification, mandated by DfT.

 

[methethpropbut]

Tickets route Liv St. Only are totally ridiculous. It should either be 'Greater Anglia Only' or 'Via Chesunt' or similar.

How is 'Liv St. Only' even a route? Presumably it means via London Liverpool Street? If so, why doesn't it say that? If not, what does it mean?

Therefore if you buy a Cambridge to London Zones 1-6 ticket (possibly a W SUP OPK DAYTC) and the route restriction is Via London Liverpool Street there is absolutely no reason why this excludes travel via Stevenage or on GTR services. All it means is that your journey has to go via Liverpool Street at some point, which it can do easily via London Kings Cross. It's a completely ridiculous thing to put in the route field.

It used to be "Greater Ang Only", even up till this June. I assume they changed it in the September round, the fares seem to have gone up as well (the 15.20 travelcard used to be valid on weekdays after 12:00, now it's weekend-only)

You make a very good point, I'm assuming whoever did this didn't think of that exact scenario :roll: I'm assuming they thought this would be the best, because Joe Public (a) wouldn't even know where Cheshunt is and (b) obviously doesn't know the differences between train companies...

Also does it mean I can't stop short at Tottenham Hale?

 

[Ianno87]

I recall my father in law telling me the Liverpool St route fares were a WAGN initiative. Possibly in response to demand on the Kings Cross route following the success of the half-hourly non-stop service, to offer a cheaper alternative (thus crowding relief)

 

[Ianno87]

How long ago was the electrification? IIRC the Foxton to Cambridge section was just a branch line some years back and the only direct trains to London were via Bishops Stortford.

Stortford-Cambridge in 1987
Royston-Cambridge on 1988 (upon which regular direct Kings Cross-Cambridge trains were reintroduced)
Cambridge-Kings Lynn in 1992

I believe the current half-hourly non-stop service was a WAGN initiative (though BR era services were fairly quick, calling only Stevenage, Royston, etc.)

 

[Hadders]

A geographical routing of 'Bishops Stortford' would be best for passengers as it would allow an excess to 'Any Permitted' if they wished to travel out via one route and return via the other.

Greater Anglia would probably prefer 'Greater Anglia Only' as they cannot be excesses.

 

[Ianno87]

A geographical routing of 'Bishops Stortford' would be best for passengers as it would allow an excess to 'Any Permitted' if they wished to travel out via one route and return via the other.

Greater Anglia would probably prefer 'Greater Anglia Only' as they cannot be excesses.

And presumably Rte Bishops Stortford would require giving a slice of revenue pie to CrossCountry and (to a lesser extent) Overground.

Off-peak, you can get some good (nom-overtaken) journey opportunities via changing at Stansted.

 

[MikeWM]

I agree that the interface on the 'new' ticket machines are somewhat confusing - I almost got caught out the first couple of times and bought the wrong Travelcard, though as I knew what price I should be paying I caught my mistake in time.

As the price difference is just 10p (5p with railcard!) one wonders who would want to buy this ticket deliberately. [Especially the next couple of months when the route is closed every weekend...]


As for 'Liverpool Street Only'... It is probably clearer than 'GA only' for the casual traveller unfamiliar with the UK rail network - and there are a *lot* of those travelling Cambridge->London.

But I have no idea what it actually means!

- Can I only get on trains with destination 'Liverpool Street'?
- Can I get off at Tottenham Hale? (in practical terms yes, as its a Travelcard - but it is 'allowed'?)
- Can I get non-AGA services (eg. XC to Stansted)?
- Can I break journey on the outward leg? (presumably yes as it doesn't explicitly say you can't)
- Can I excess this to an Any Permitted?

Seems like a complete recipe for confusion.

 

[MikeWM]

On the original question, ISTR in the late 90s/early 00s the only routing options were 'Not Via Stansted' and 'Via Stansted'. Which, rather oddly, were the same price.

Not sure when this ended.

I don't remember cheaper fares for WAML services only until 7 or 8 years ago (around the same time FCC introduced Super-Off Peak fares for weekends) - but I may not have been paying close enough attention.


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Edit :

I mean Stansted *Airport*. I can't remember the exact wording on the ticket but it was clear it meant the airport, not Mountfitchet.

Also, I've found a thread on the newsgroup cam.transport discussing NXEA only fares from late 2008. Sounds like they were fairly new at that point.

 

[yorkie]

As for 'Liverpool Street Only'... It is probably clearer than 'GA only' for the casual traveller unfamiliar with the UK rail network - and there are a *lot* of those travelling Cambridge->London.

Is it? I'd have thought a lot of people would interchange at Tottenham Hale which would not be permitted.

But I have no idea what it actually means!

So is it clearer?

- Can I only get on trains with destination 'Liverpool Street'?

No.

- Can I get off at Tottenham Hale? (in practical terms yes, as its a Travelcard - but it is 'allowed'?)

You may finish short of your destination but booking engines are not allowed to offer itineraries*.

Outboundary Travelcards should not have a geographical route restriction of a station within the Zones as this is problematical.

- Can I get non-AGA services (eg. XC to Stansted)?

Yes

- Can I break journey on the outward leg? (presumably yes as it doesn't explicitly say you can't)

Yes

- Can I excess this to an Any Permitted?

In general yes a geographical route restricted fare can be excessed, but if the ticket type is a Travelcard I don't believe there is any provision for any excessing.

Seems like a complete recipe for confusion.

So not clearer then?

* Unless an easement is published

 

[Hadders]

Interesting about excesses. Can a Cambridge-Liverpool Street ticket be excessed to Cambridge-London Terminals to allow someone to travel from Kings Cross? Would this would be an over distance rather than change of route?

Thinking about the history of these tickets there'd have been no point in WAGN having them as they'd have been robbing themselves of revenue so I suspect they were introduced at some point after WAGN was split and the West Anglia route became part of NXEA.

 

[methethpropbut]

As the price difference is just 10p (5p with railcard!) one wonders who would want to buy this ticket deliberately. [Especially the next couple of months when the route is closed every weekend...]

Agree with you on the weekend bit, but on weekdays the price difference is quite a bit! £17.15 for the GA Only - I mean, Liv. St travelcard with no evening peak restrictions, vs £21.40 for Route: Any Permitted with evening peak restrictions.

 

[MikeWM]

Agree with you on the weekend bit, but on weekdays the price difference is quite a bit! £17.15 for the GA Only - I mean, Liv. St travelcard with no evening peak restrictions, vs £21.40 for Route: Any Permitted with evening peak restrictions.

Yes, this is helpful. I used to get this quite a bit when travelling to London on weekdays but haven't done that for a bit - mostly at weekends at the moment.

 

[MikeWM]

So not clearer then?

Not for people with some knowledge of the system, no!

However, I can see the - rather misguided - logic behind the change. There are a *lot* of people doing Cambridge->London who don't know much/anything about the UK railway system. They won't know what a 'GA' service is as opposed to anything else, but they presumably will be able to look at the departure board and work out to get on a 'London Liverpool Street' train rather than 'London *something else*'. Of course that doesn't help them much with working out what a 'Travelcard Zones 1-6' is, or what the peak restrictions are, or... so that usefulness is rather limited...

For myself, however, I'm still not at all sure about whether this is actually a geographical restriction or a very-poorly-worded operator restriction. I don't fancy my chances with one of these on a XC Cambridge->Stansted, for example.

 

[methethpropbut]

A bit of an update: The tickets now say "Route: G ANGLIA- LIV ST". Ticket machines at Cambridge (well, at least one of them!) have a clear pop-up at the purchasing screen notifying users of the two types of tickets available.