Campaign for Calder Valley Electrification

[Eric]

I see the front page of today's T&A has news of a bid to push for electrification of the Calder Valley line.

How long is the line and what sort of money are we talking?

If they can electrify Preston to Blackpool then they certainly should do the Calder Valley line.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co....lectrify_rail_line_into_Bradford_Interchange/

FOUR groups of rail users are behind a major new push for electrification of the rail line running into Bradford Interchange, which would see the end of ageing diesel trains.

The four, including Bradford Rail Users Group (BRUG) and Halifax and District Rail Action Group (HADRAG) have joined together to launch a campaign this week in a bid to revive plans for railway electrification across the north of England, starting with the Calder Valley Line.

The groups, which also include STORM (Oldham and Rochdale rail users group), and Upper Calder Valley Sustainable Transport Group, cover the length of the key strategic route, which links Leeds with Manchester and Preston, via both Bradford and Brighouse.

The grass-roots campaign, called the Electric Railway Charter, is being launched on Thursday in Halifax...

 

[Andyh82]

FOUR groups of rail users are behind a major new push for electrification of the rail line running into Bradford Interchange, which would see the end of ageing diesel trains.

Do they not know that the ageing diesel trains are going anyway?

If they won’t electrify the transpennine, I can’t see the Calder valley being on the cards, despite some user groups making a ‘bid’ for it to happen.

 

[td97]

Exactly, for Calder Valley electrification to happen, the following electrification would have to happen first, given that they have already been announced but with little progress so far/indefinitely deferred:

• Manchester - Stalybridge
• Lostock - Wigan
• Transpennine Route Upgrade

Could be promising for the above schemes though (in terms of available workforce and funding), now that Blackpool is finished and Bolton should be done by autumn.

 

[Domh245]

By my reckoning it is about 52.5 miles from Holbeck Junction to Miles Platting (via Bradford Interchange) which would be the extent that needed electrification. Assuming a very optimistic £1 million/singletrackkm (GW is somewhere around £1.7 million) you would be looking at over £100 million, if not double*. That is assuming that things fall into place in terms of power supply and everything else

*GOBLIN electrification has come in over £170 million for 22 route kilometres, but hasn't been problem free.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Calder Valley was number 1 priority in the northern sparks all party report. Obviously start in the east and work west.

 

[59CosG95]

Calder Valley was number 1 priority in the northern sparks all party report. Obviously start in the east and work west.

And then the question of "Where in the east do you start?" comes to mind. A quick fix, perhaps, would be to electrify east from Neville Hill, through Crossgates, the Garforths and Micklefield, and then splitting in two:

• NE to Church Fenton, Ulleskelf and thence to the ECML at Colton; and
• E to South Milford and thence to the ECML at Hambleton.

The problems here arise with the Dearne Valley Line (i.e. via Sherburn-in-Elmet) and onwards to Selby.
With the DVL, it's a question of "how far down the line you wire", as you'd only hit other electrified lines nr Moorthorpe (ECML Leeds-Doncaster) and at Rotherham (presently being electrified at the wrong voltage and current type for mainline trains).
Selby and the Swing Bridge is going to be a nightmare in and of itself.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Northern Sparks made the assumption that MML and Transpennine were a given so that alters the thinking a bit IMHO.

 

[Ploughman]

By my reckoning it is about 52.5 miles from Holbeck Junction to Miles Platting (via Bradford Interchange) which would be the extent that needed electrification. Assuming a very optimistic £1 million/singletrackkm (GW is somewhere around £1.7 million) you would be looking at over £100 million, if not double*. That is assuming that things fall into place in terms of power supply and everything else

As part of the scheme, I would include the link back to Heaton Lodge,Bradley - Bradley Wood Link and the Greetland - Dryclough link.
This assuming that the Leeds - Huddersfield line is wired previously and these links are include to maintain the current divert routes.

In the T+A article it states a date in the early 2000's for Leeds N West electrification, I am sure it was around 1994 - 95
New stock may have arrived later as the 308's were in use for a while.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In the T+A article it states a date in the early 2000's for Leeds N West electrification, I am sure it was around 1994 - 95
New stock may have arrived later as the 308's were in use for a while.

And I would bet a months salary or more that you are correct sir!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Also if Transpennine upgrade with a chunk of electrification does go ahead they are unlikely to do Calder Valley at same time as a blockade strategy will be used and Calder Valley is a diversionary route. TPE York to Leeds and Selby to Leeds must get sparked up first. Then you can do Leeds to Bradford Interchange imho

 

[59CosG95]

Also if Transpennine upgrade with a chunk of electrification does go ahead they are unlikely to do Calder Valley at same time as a blockade strategy will be used and Calder Valley is a diversionary route. TPE York to Leeds and Selby to Leeds must get sparked up first.

Worth bearing in mind that, assuming HS2 Phase 2 goes ahead, Colton Jct may need to be heftily remodelled...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Worth bearing in mind that, assuming HS2 Phase 2 goes ahead, Colton Jct may need to be heftily remodelled...

Agreed but if you put off forever nowt gets done. Bloody hell, I could be a politician!!

 

[Ianno87]

By my reckoning it is about 52.5 miles from Holbeck Junction to Miles Platting (via Bradford Interchange) which would be the extent that needed electrification. Assuming a very optimistic £1 million/singletrackkm (GW is somewhere around £1.7 million) you would be looking at over £100 million, if not double*. That is assuming that things fall into place in terms of power supply and everything else

*GOBLIN electrification has come in over £170 million for 22 route kilometres, but hasn't been problem free.

I wager that virtually every bridge on the route will need clearence work for OLE, possibly save for 'modern' ones (e.g 2 x Metrolink, New Pudsey). Plus multiple major tunnels (Summit, that one coming into Bradford, and many shorter ones)

 

[thejuggler]

FOUR groups of rail users are behind a major new push for electrification of the rail line running into Bradford Interchange, which would see the end of ageing diesel trains.

Do they not know that the ageing diesel trains are going anyway?
.

Every Caldervale diesel set is ageing. I don't consider a 30 year old 158 young!

I am not aware they are all going any time soon.

 

[furnessvale]

I wager that virtually every bridge on the route will need clearence work for OLE, possibly save for 'modern' ones (e.g 2 x Metrolink, New Pudsey). Plus multiple major tunnels (Summit, that one coming into Bradford, and many shorter ones)

I have no specific information on these particular tunnels, but it is surprising how many major tunnels have not required major rebuilding for OHLE.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I have no specific information on these particular tunnels, but it is surprising how many major tunnels have not required major rebuilding for OHLE.

Track lowering is what usually happens

 

[furnessvale]

Track lowering is what usually happens

Where necessary yes, but in many cases the wires can be accommodated towards the 6ft, and these days by using a rigid bar system.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In my mind Transpennine should be done first then Leeds to Interchange. Then from Bradford into Manchester and then finally to Preston. 2030 at very very best.

 

[47802]

Every Caldervale diesel set is ageing. I don't consider a 30 year old 158 young!

I am not aware they are all going any time soon.

The majority of Calder Valley services particularly through Bradford should go over to 195's so they will be far from ageing. In fact as far as I can see about the only old trains through Bradford will be the Huddersfield's and maybe some extra peak services.

My view is they should bin HS3 or whatever its called and go for electrification and significant capacity improvements on both the main TPE routes and the Calder Valley route, but obviously the TPE route would be done first, it would also include the Bradford - Huddersfield and via Dewsbury route, and also the Wakefield Kirkgate route with at least 1 TPE train per hour routed via Wakefield instead of Dewsbury. Yes it wouldn't dramatically improve headline journey times like HS route but it might be more what's needed I guess the key issue is how much you can improve capacity on these routes without it being ridiculously expensive.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With the best will in the world, routing via Wakefield and Normanton would extend journey times. Besides, that 1tph would be the only electric service using the wires on that route unless you also wire to Castleford and Sheffield via Barnsley... unless you meant the Kirkgate-Castleford-York route which avoids Leeds: one of the biggest markets in the North.

 

[47802]

With the best will in the world, routing via Wakefield and Normanton would extend journey times. Besides, that 1tph would be the only electric service using the wires on that route unless you also wire to Castleford and Sheffield via Barnsley... unless you meant the Kirkgate-Castleford-York route which avoids Leeds: one of the biggest markets in the North.

I suspect some infrastructure improvement significantly could improve journey time, and making it an integral part of the overall route upgrade, and relieve the Dewsbury route.

However if we end up with a new HS3/NPR routed via Bradford then I doubt the Calder Valley would be electrified anytime soon.

 

[Mollman]

I think that it is a good project to do once TP has been electrified. Given that it won't be for another 10 years or so that would allow the 195s on Leeds - Manchester Airport and Chester (if Warrington - Chester were done too) to be replaced by EMUs. This would allow them to replace some 156s / 158s which will be getting to the end of their life. Southport service might have to be bi-mode.

 

[superkev]

Electric trains come into there own on hilly stop start intensive lines like the Calder valley.
I always thought the Calder valley a better bet than the stanedge route.
Don't suppose theres much chance untill bi mode Grayling moves on.
I do hope all that expensively purchased electrification plant now starting to be played up and expertise dosent go to waste till the next time.
K

 

[jayah]

By my reckoning it is about 52.5 miles from Holbeck Junction to Miles Platting (via Bradford Interchange) which would be the extent that needed electrification. Assuming a very optimistic £1 million/singletrackkm (GW is somewhere around £1.7 million) you would be looking at over £100 million, if not double*. That is assuming that things fall into place in terms of power supply and everything else

*GOBLIN electrification has come in over £170 million for 22 route kilometres, but hasn't been problem free.

Stkm stands for single track km. That makes nearly £190m at £1m per stkm and a lot more if reflecting the actual cost. Cardiff Swansea was ditched at £500m and that is a shorter distance.

 

[jayah]

Electric trains come into there own on hilly stop start intensive lines like the Calder valley.
I always thought the Calder valley a better bet than the stanedge route.
Don't suppose theres much chance untill bi mode Grayling moves on.
I do hope all that expensively purchased electrification plant now starting to be played up and expertise dosent go to waste till the next time.
K

It is a pity electrification is being viewed as a panacea when in truth it delivers nothing on a slow pony track like the Calder Valley.

Spend the money on track, signalling and rolling stock if you want to improve the railway.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

None of you have mentioned a key issue: justifying it.

Only the ends (Man Vic to Roachdale, Bradford International to Leeds) will ever get a business case because:

1. Electrifying the middle bit will make GWEP look like pocket change (some of the tunnels are only just big enough to fit DMU through, let alone anything with a pantograph)
2. The middle bit is not heaving with passengers - see 3.
   
3. The middle bit (even post- the current JTI works) is tediously slow, so slow that tilting trains would make no difference at all - you aren't going to fix 2.

So, in summary, very poor "B", huge "C" = sub unity BCR.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

My view is they should bin HS3 or whatever its called and go for electrification and significant capacity improvements on both the main TPE routes and the Calder Valley route ...

There is no formal project called HS3 - what to you think Northern Powerhouse Rail is (and that isn't "high speed" - Liverpool to Manchester to Leeds to Hull and stopping at all three?) Not "high speed", ever.

 

[bluenoxid]

Whilst I definitely understand the points made, I very much lost concentration on Roachdale and Bradford International

 

[adrock1976]

Should if Manchester Victoria - Rochdale and Leeds - Bradford Interchange (possibly continuing to Huddersfield/Mirfield via Halifax and Brighouse) ever gets electrified, would it be possible at a reasonable cost to wire Halifax - Preston via Burnley?

Or would the tunnels between Todmorden (Hall Royd or Milner Royd Junction - unsure which way round they are) and Burnley be too tight for clearances?

 

[jayah]

Should if Manchester Victoria - Rochdale and Leeds - Bradford Interchange (possibly continuing to Huddersfield/Mirfield via Halifax and Brighouse) ever gets electrified, would it be possible at a reasonable cost to wire Halifax - Preston via Burnley?

Or would the tunnels between Todmorden (Hall Royd or Milner Royd Junction - unsure which way round they are) and Burnley be too tight for clearances?

Great Western electrification is heading for £3bn and all UK fare income is only around £10bn per year. The amount spent on fuel and electric traction power is about £300m (each) per year.

It isn't possible or sensible to electrify very much at all.