Can an operator restricted fare not be excessed for use on another operator?

Mugby

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On Saturday last, 12th, I boarded an XC service at Sheffield for my journey to Derby. At the seat where I sat, someone had left some used tickets, they were as follows:

2 x Off Peak Day Returns from Wakefield Westgate/Kirkgate to York, priced £13,50 each and endorsed 'Valid only on Northern Trains services'
2 x Off Peak Day Singles from York to Wakefield Westgate, priced £17.60 each, issued on board by Crosscountry Trains just four minutes after departure from York.

Clearly the couple who bought the tickets from Wakefield thought it would be ok to get the XC service to return but were made to purchase two new Singles by the TM.
Presumably, paying the excess amount was not an option?
 
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transportphoto

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The current policies do not allow a situation whereby you can “excess away” an operator specific restriction. The original tickets can be refunded for a fee as unused.
 

plugwash

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The original tickets can be refunded for a fee as unused.
I presume that only applies if the tickets are actually unused though.

It sounds like in the OPs case the passengers in question used their "northern only" tickets on the outbound, but were unable to use them on the return and so had to buy new tickets.
 

island

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I presume that only applies if the tickets are actually unused though.

It sounds like in the OPs case the passengers in question used their "northern only" tickets on the outbound, but were unable to use them on the return and so had to buy new tickets.
The unused return portion would in theory be eligible to be submitted for a refund but the refund value is the difference between the single and the return fare (10p in this instance) with a £10 admin fee, so the passengers would be left owing Northern £9.90 each :lol:
 

Hadders

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Given the passengers left their tickets on the train it's possible they had to purchase a third ticket for their return leg :lol:
 

Mugby

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Given the passengers left their tickets on the train it's possible they had to purchase a third ticket for their return leg :lol:

Yes. I thought that too, I presume they took it for granted the barriers at Wakefield Westgate would be open and unmanned.
 

thedbdiboy

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The reason this is not allowed is because a 'dedicated' ticket allocates 100% of the revenue to the specified operator, and an excess (as opposed to refunding and reissuing) means that although the customer may have paid in total the same price as an interavailable fare the money cannot be redirected. However, the allocations issue becomes 'wooden dollars' under GBR so who knows, maybe it can be changed in future?
 

infobleep

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The other day I overheard a guard excess a Thameslink only ticket to a Southern one. They were training another member of staff too.

Now I know a Thameslink ticket should be valid on a Southern service as it's a brand. The person paid and nothing more was said.

My point is that the system must allow them to excess to another TOC even if it is not meant to be done.
 

_toommm_

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The other day I overheard a guard excess a Thameslink only ticket to a Southern one. They were training another member of staff too.

Now I know a Thameslink ticket should be valid on a Southern service as it's a brand. The person paid and nothing more was said.

My point is that the system must allow them to excess to another TOC even if it is not meant to be done.

(If we forget the argument whether you can/can't limit tickets by the GTR sub-brands), the guard will have an issued an excess, but it wouldn't have been correct. The person may have paid the difference between the two, but it wouldn't have been correct. It's not possible to correctly excess out of a TOC restriction, as all the monies would have gone to the TOC with which the TOC was originally intended for, and there's not currently a way to re-distribute that money if you were able to (correctly) excess out of a TOC restriction.
 

yorkie

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The other day I overheard a guard excess a Thameslink only ticket to a Southern one. They were training another member of staff too.
This sounds of great interest; if anyone knows of any examples of this occurring and/or if anyone is aware of GTR's practices in this area, please send me a conversation message.

To be clear, I believe this act to be unlawful however I do not wish to debate this any further in this thread, but I would be extremely interested to hear from anyone who has evidence of such wrongful acts privately (it's best not discussed on the forum) and would be most grateful for any information that could be useful.

My point is that the system must allow them to excess to another TOC even if it is not meant to be done.
There is nothing physical to stop a member of staff choosing to issue an excess fare for any reason that is in the system, regardless of the rights or wrongs of that action.
 

infobleep

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(If we forget the argument whether you can/can't limit tickets by the GTR sub-brands), the guard will have an issued an excess, but it wouldn't have been correct. The person may have paid the difference between the two, but it wouldn't have been correct. It's not possible to correctly excess out of a TOC restriction, as all the monies would have gone to the TOC with which the TOC was originally intended for, and there's not currently a way to re-distribute that money if you were able to (correctly) excess out of a TOC restriction.

This sounds of great interest; if anyone knows of any examples of this occurring and/or if anyone is aware of GTR's practices in this area, please send me a conversation message.

To be clear, I believe this act to be unlawful however I do not wish to debate this any further in this thread, but I would be extremely interested to hear from anyone who has evidence of such wrongful acts privately (it's best not discussed on the forum) and would be most grateful for any information that could be useful.


There is nothing physical to stop a member of staff choosing to issue an excess fare for any reason that is in the system, regardless of the rights or wrongs of that action.
I've forwarded Yorkie known details. It's been discussed enough publicly in the last.

More broadly, if an operator only ticket was excessed on another operators service, incorrectly of course, how would the TOCs deal with the finances after. Would the company whose staff member had incorrectly excessed ticket keep the excess or would it go to the TOC of the original ticket, or is it simply decided using ORCATs, as if there had been no restriction in the first place.
 

Wallsendmag

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The system , like there's only one lol. There's many things that can be done that are correct. Details of the original ticket aren't sent in the SDCI records so X/S doesn't tie into the original ticket in any way in Lennon or whatever the new system is called.
 

infobleep

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The system , like there's only one lol. There's many things that can be done that are correct. Details of the original ticket aren't sent in the SDCI records so X/S doesn't tie into the original ticket in any way in Lennon or whatever the new system is called.
So the excess is just treated as if it's a standard any permitted ticket in terms of revenue allocation?
 

Jan Mayen

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Presumably excessing Thameslink Only to Southern Only is allowed as it's all GTR. The other Train Operating Companies would only care if they were to lose out financially.
 

infobleep

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Presumably excessing Thameslink Only to Southern Only is allowed as it's all GTR. The other Train Operating Companies would only care if they were to lose out financially.
It's not legal is the option of some, including myself. The TOC may allow it but then a guard issuing a ticket for use on another operator may allow that, even if that isn't legal either.
 

island

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I think it’s always been a bit of an arbitrary restriction but now more than ever it’s pointless.
 

Paul Kelly

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Presumably excessing Thameslink Only to Southern Only is allowed as it's all GTR. The other Train Operating Companies would only care if they were to lose out financially.
The point being alluded to above was that since Thameslink and Southern are the same TOC, the ticket was valid and no excess should be necessary.
 

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