Can GBR bring XC back up to INTERCITY standard?

[signed]

About catering, what about Vending Machines?

The MU classic-line ICs nowadays in France, and the Normandie Omnéos and (all?) Italian IC have a vending machine area that sells beverages and cold food. Which for the kind of stock and services ran is perfectly adequate.

The Japanese have long had microwave vending machine technology, that could also work here. Roadside frozen reheated pizza vending machine are becoming more and more popular over in France though of course impractical in a train.

 

[The Mercian]

Manchester-Stockport as I posted elsewhere is no great problem. Stockport is a massive P&R for leafy, rich south Manchester and north Cheshire. Sometimes more board there than do at Piccadilly on long distance trains, particularly to Euston but also XC. Thus if Manchester-Stockport is a problem there aren't enough seats generally - something we know to be the case for XC.

Coventry is similar to some extent but it's nowhere near as pronounced.

As a reasonably regular user of Macc-Mcr and also Macc-Brum I take a different view. I long for the day when the express trains, both Avanti and XC, are removed from the whole Mcr-Brum axis and only local and inter/intra regional services run on them. Get the inter city expresses where they belong, on HS2.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The shop/buffet should never have been removed by Arriva. I said it was a pointless mistake when they did it, and nothing has made me change my mind. The luggage racks they replaced them with are useless unless you have an overwhelming urge to have your luggage stolen.

The better solution would have been to reform the trains so the shop/buffet was next to first class (as Virgin WC did) and, if cycling storage was needed, put that in the driving carriage next to first class instead of the first class catering equipment.

you don't really make much money selling tea

The margin on tea and coffee is sky-high.

Tea is less popular these days, but you can get the teabags from Costco for about 20p a bag, if not less. If you can't make money selling it for £2.50 then there's no hope.

Coffee is not that different. At work we have a bean-to-cup machine which is small enough to fit on a trolley. It uses powdered milk rather than fresh milk. It makes a decent enough cup of coffee, certainly no worse than from somewhere like Greggs.

 

[Halish Railway]

The shop/buffet should never have been removed by Arriva. I said it was a pointless mistake when they did it, and nothing has made me change my mind. The luggage racks they replaced them with are useless unless you have an overwhelming urge to have your luggage stolen.

I’ve had experience in the past of travelling back to University on the day before term starts there is physically nowhere else to put large items of luggage. Not too much of a problem if you’re only putting bags of clothes there and trying to keep valuables with you.

Introducing something like Class 805s with their plentiful luggage storage would be ideal given that CrossCountry connects up so many cities with large student populations that will be doing journeys that don’t involve travelling through London.

 

[Zomboid]

Tea is less popular these days, but you can get the teabags from Costco for about 20p a bag, if not less. If you can't make money selling it for £2.50 then there's no hope.

240 Yorkshire tea bags in Sainsbury's are £8.50, that's 3.6p per bag for retail to the general public. The mark up is enormous, even if you're selling to the kinds of deviant who have milk and/or sugar.

The problem I suspect is selling enough of them (or whatever else) an hour to cover the costs of the trolley and it's attendant. Particularly when the train is so rammed they can't actually get through to serve anyone, as is usually the case on XC.

 

[HSTEd]

The problem with these facilities is that there are not enough people on the train to generate enough business to pay for the staff member.

Sure, if everyone on the train wanted the same thing, it would work - but they don't.

You tie up a staff member for hours and hours and only sell a handful of things.

 

[Technologist]

The problem with these facilities is that there are not enough people on the train to generate enough business to pay for the staff member.

Sure, if everyone on the train wanted the same thing, it would work - but they don't.

You tie up a staff member for hours and hours and only sell a handful of things.

We have an automated "shop" in the works canteen where you scan your card, it unlocks the door and then bills you when you take stuff. Works with hot and cold food (fresh sandwiches) and could sell basically everything an onboard shop can.

 

[Snow1964]

About catering, what about Vending Machines?

The MU classic-line ICs nowadays in France, and the Normandie Omnéos and (all?) Italian IC have a vending machine area that sells beverages and cold food. Which for the kind of stock and services ran is perfectly adequate.

The Japanese have long had microwave vending machine technology, that could also work here. Roadside frozen reheated pizza vending machine are becoming more and more popular over in France though of course impractical in a train.

It's also possible to have some form of hybrid shop system, much like local convenience stores. SNCF appears to have gone for glass door chilled cabinets in the new Avelia Horizon bistro cars (see 1min 5 sec in attached video).

Actually if you compare the accommodation and features from whole video with what is fitted to XC fleet then does seem XC really doesn't want to be a long distance operator

 

[Zomboid]

Actually if you compare the accommodation and features from whole video with what is fitted to XC fleet then does seem XC really doesn't want to be a long distance operator

For the most part it isn't. It's a medium distance operator that links a large number of station pairs. You can do Bournemouth to Manchester or Exeter to Newcastle on it, but most people don't.

 

[Killingworth]

This time last year we used the Oslo-Bergen railway. For speed most Norwegians will fly but the one person operated buffet arrangements are good. Of course Norway has lots of state money to support things like railways, and fewer people, but to a tourist it seemed a much better experience than our CrossCountry trains.



The train to Oslo Airport had well stocked self service vending facilities - my picture doesn't show all the standees making it difficult for travellers to get to them! Shades of XC there.

 

[Brubulus]

It's also possible to have some form of hybrid shop system, much like local convenience stores. SNCF appears to have gone for glass door chilled cabinets in the new Avelia Horizon bistro cars (see 1min 5 sec in attached video).

Actually if you compare the accommodation and features from whole video with what is fitted to XC fleet then does seem XC really doesn't want to be a long distance operator

The TGV's have a 2 story dining car. Sadly we are never going to get restaurant cars on UK trains. Vending machines are by far the best way to provide a basic catering service.

Beyond that there are 3 main options.
An "airline style" system where one can order meals online, heated en masse onboard and distributed from a trolley.
A buffet car/galley solution where food is heated individually.
Or the most ambitious solution, which is a partnership with food delivery companies to deliver hot food to the platform, which is then served to the ordering passengers by a trolley attendant.

Secondly a Midland Mainline style free tea and coffee promotion, potentially with extra conditions, could likely lead to an overall increase in revenue given the low marginal cost of tea and coffee.

 

[FGWHST43009]

I’ve had experience in the past of travelling back to University on the day before term starts there is physically nowhere else to put large items of luggage. Not too much of a problem if you’re only putting bags of clothes there and trying to keep valuables with you.

Introducing something like Class 805s with their plentiful luggage storage would be ideal given that CrossCountry connects up so many cities with large student populations that will be doing journeys that don’t involve travelling through London.

I agree, while it's only a few days per year, there are twelve universities on the Edinburgh-Plymouth route alone (ignoring extensions). I specifically aim for workings that are usually booked for double Voyagers when travelling to and from uni. Ideally bi-mode 807s should be procured, although I would personally prefer loco-hauled trains as they're more comfortable. However with no prospect of XC reducing the number of stops acceleration is key, which make multiple units more appropriate with their faster acceleration. Maybe XC could run an express service that only stops at the major stations every 2 hours or so? Ideally if Bristol-Bromsgrove, Northfield fast lines, Birmingham-Derby and Sheffield-South Kirkby junction are electrified on top of existing or planned electrification, then the diesel engines don't need to be powerful enough to reach 125mph, meaning 940hp engines should be fine.

 

[The Ham]

By my maths the existing XC fleet has:
38*4= 152 (7,600 seats)
32*5= 160 (8,384 seats)
Total of 312 coaches providing 15,984 seats

However if we were to convert the 22x's to be 6 coach units and then get 5 x 9 coach 502/1 it would result in:
43*6= 258 (13,392*)
7*9 = 45 (3,235)
Total to 312 coaches providing 17,167 seats

* Coach A 26 seats, 2 x Coach B 62 seats each, 1 of each of coach C and D with 66 seats each and coach E with 42 seats, giving a 6 coach unit capacity of 324 (328 if the insured coach is C or D, but we'll go with the lower value for robustness)

That's no increase in coaches but an increase in seats of 7.4%.

Given last year growth on XC was 15%, then it's likely that there'll be a need for more capacity fairly quickly.

The above would provide a starting point without necessarily needing to significantly increase the number of coaches (and therefore the lease costs).

As, ideally, you'd want an order of 100 or more coaches, you'd possibly order 8 for XC (72 coaches) and lengthen 11 of GWR's 22 units with 5 coaches to be 9 coach units (44 coaches)

You could then have an option for a further 152 coaches (would allow 12 new trains for XC and to lengthen the remaining half of the GWR 802/1 fleet).

Yes that would increase the least costs, however an extra 2 units with 9 coaches would increase the seating capacity by an extra 1,294 seats (an 15.5% increase in seating over the existing fleet, yet only increasing the number of coaches by 5.8%).

Whilst the extra capacity vs the extra coaches may not be that significant, by being able to run more services with a single unit it also reduces staff costs.

As 6 coach unit with 324 seats isn't much of a step down from a pair of 220's with 400 seats, the loss of a rear unit due to lack of staff wouldn't be as keenly felt.

 

[Killingworth]

I agree, while it's only a few days per year, there are twelve universities on the Edinburgh-Plymouth route alone (ignoring extensions).

Only 12?

2 in Edinburgh, 2 in Newcastle, Durham, Darlington (Teesside), 2 in York, 4 in Leeds, 2 in Sheffield, Derby - that's 15 before getting to Birmingham with another 4!

There's a few more from Birmingham to Plymouth so at least 20 in total.

 

[danielnez1]

Only 12?

2 in Edinburgh, 2 in Newcastle, Durham, Darlington (Teesside), 2 in York, 4 in Leeds, 2 in Sheffield, Derby - that's 15 before getting to Birmingham with another 4!

There's a few more from Birmingham to Plymouth so at least 20 in total.

As well as the student loadings, academics do frequently use these services when travelling to other unis too. While agree a lot of people do use XC services for short hops, there is a sizable number who use it for long distance travel.

On a side note, when I got my very first proper job at McDonalds, we were told that the markup on fountain drinks and hot drinks was huge, and that the actual production cost of them meant a restaurant could give them away for free and still make a profit on the food sales alone.

 

[HSTEd]

This time last year we used the Oslo-Bergen railway. For speed most Norwegians will fly but the one person operated buffet arrangements are good. Of course Norway has lots of state money to support things like railways, and fewer people, but to a tourist it seemed a much better experience than our CrossCountry trains.

View attachment 182549 View attachment 182550

The train to Oslo Airport had well stocked self service vending facilities - my picture doesn't show all the standees making it difficult for travellers to get to them! Shades of XC there.
View attachment 182551

The loading gauge advantage in Scandinavia is probably very helpful for this sort of thing, however.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 00:40 ==

On a side note, when I got my very first proper job at McDonalds, we were told that the markup on fountain drinks and hot drinks was huge, and that the actual production cost of them meant a restaurant could give them away for free and still make a profit on the food sales alone.

Postmix fountain type drinks are actually on very tight margins these days, especially for brands like Coca Cola.

They've largely swallowed all the mark up for their end.

 

[danielnez1]

Postmix fountain type drinks are actually on very tight margins these days, especially for brands like Coca Cola.

They've largely swallowed all the mark up for their end.

That was back in 2005. Cost increases might explain why they experimented with their own brand of fizzy drink a while ago. The old MML model would be great for drinks, but I'd settle for hot food to go on XC, especially on a long journey.

 

[Harpo]

I'd settle for hot food to go on XC, especially on a long journey.

I’d settle for a seat.

 

[Zomboid]

The catering offering on XC is fine IMO. Tea & Coffee, crisps, sandwiches, a few things that can be microzapped... If there were enough seats (and suitable luggage storage) that the trolley could actually get through the train then I reckon that'd be sufficient for the vast majority of people who use the service.

Things like buffets and vending machines are all subservient to that - if the train is wedged then nobody is going anywhere to get anything.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Only 12?

2 in Edinburgh, 2 in Newcastle, Durham, Darlington (Teesside), 2 in York, 4 in Leeds, 2 in Sheffield, Derby - that's 15 before getting to Birmingham with another 4!

There's a few more from Birmingham to Plymouth so at least 20 in total.

My bad, I was only thinking of the well known ones. I know there's two in Newcastle which are both fairly big but apart from the well known ones I don't know how big the rest are. I tend to avoid travelling on the weekends when students come home to avoid the busy trains

 

[Class15]

My thoughts on 745s are still that they are superb regional trains as they wouldn’t be acceptable on the ECML/WCML, they are not InterCity sets.

Forgive me but I thought 745s were used on the London to Norwich route?

 

[Trainbike46]

Forgive me but I thought 745s were used on the London to Norwich route?

They are used on the London-Norwich IC service, yes. They are also used on StanEx.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Forgive me but I thought 745s were used on the London to Norwich route?

Paha. Nothing about that service is IC apart from the branding. The whole thing end to end is about ninety minutes and it doesn’t top 100mph.

My thoughts on 745s are still that they are superb regional trains as they wouldn’t be acceptable on the ECML/WCML, they are not InterCity sets.

Completely agree and have said this myself often.

 

[Brubulus]

My thoughts on 745s are still that they are superb regional trains as they wouldn’t be acceptable on the ECML/WCML, they are not InterCity sets.

XC dwell issues are a function of their short forming/overcrowding and stopping patterns more akin to a regional service.

XC will remain a beggars muddle while the fudge around its role on the railway network continues.

745s are better trains for XC than anything else currently on the market, given their low floor and large vestibules. 9 car 745s are a similar length to a 7 car 80x or an 8 car Civity. A 7 car 80x can fit a similar number of people to 2x5 car Voyagers. However an 8 car civity is not particularly space efficient, with 9 cars needed to replicate a similar capacity to a 7 car 80x. On the other hand, 745s are surprisingly space efficient, though I would strongly suspect lease costs for 9 cars of FLIRT is still higher than 7 cars of 80x

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand, 745s are surprisingly space efficient

I'd say very space *inefficient* as the stuff that goes under the floor on high floor units has to go above it. They are basically LHCS in terms of platform length usage, just that what would be in a classic loco is split between the power pods and the electrical cupboards behind the cabs.

 

[edwin_m]

The catering offering on XC is fine IMO. Tea & Coffee, crisps, sandwiches, a few things that can be microzapped... If there were enough seats (and suitable luggage storage) that the trolley could actually get through the train then I reckon that'd be sufficient for the vast majority of people who use the service.

Things like buffets and vending machines are all subservient to that - if the train is wedged then nobody is going anywhere to get anything.

Frequent stops on XC also make it less likely people will set off down the train in search of any sort of fixed catering, due to the risks of losing their seats or having luggage stolen. There may also be an accessibility issue if wheelchair users can't get to the catering, and if a single catering staff member has to leave their post then they either have to lock it up or risk the stock being stolen. So I suggest there's little alternative to a trolley. However, the prices and limited selection make on-train food more of a distress purchase, and if passengers can't be confident it will be provided on the day then it's not even that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However an 8 car civity is not particularly space efficient, with 9 cars needed to replicate a similar capacity to a 7 car 80x.

What is this based on, please? If you're talking about the 397 remember it has a very low density layout with almost all seats facing at tables, and also that the vehicles are 24, not 26, metres long.

Knowing what the interior of 397s looks like I don't think they are any less space efficient than Class 810 which is the only really directly comparable 80x because of the different vehicle lengths.

For a direct comparison with a similar layout:

397 5-car: 264 Std, 22 1st
805 5-car: 274 Std, 25 1st

Difference: 10 more Std, 3 more 1st.

If you consider that there is an extra 10m of furnishable space in the 805 (2m per vehicle, basically an extra half a coach) the number of seats in a comparable layout in the 397 looks pretty favourable to me.

 

[Trainbike46]

I'd say very space *inefficient* as the stuff that goes under the floor on high floor units has to go above it. They are basically LHCS in terms of platform length usage, just that what would be in a classic loco is split between the power pods and the electrical cupboards behind the cabs.

People keep saying that, but the number of seats per metre length of train is not that different from other options. What differs is where the unused space is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People keep saying that, but the number of seats per metre length of train is not that different from other options. What differs is where the unused space is.

This is down to the layout. It isn't right to directly compare very low density seating layouts (e.g. the mostly tables layout of the 397 and 805, the latter using First Class spacing in Standard so there is added behind-seats luggage space, something the FLIRT provides very badly) with a very tight, mostly airline layout as the FLIRTs have. That's why you can directly compare 397 and 805 (they have the same sort of layout) but really the FLIRT has a layout more like a 730/2 or 350/1 which is a lot more dense.

All of them are more generously spaced than Voyagers, but to be honest the Voyager isn't really a good example of very much above the sole bar other than a massive series of errors. You can make one nice by going for a low density layout (e.g. Avanti "Coach D"*) but if you do the capacity is so low you'd get more in a 3-car 170 than a 5-car Voyager.

* The 805/807 basically have that layout throughout, except the end coach which has slightly more airline seats but still on a very generous layout. The extra length and space efficiency has been largely used to provide more comfort rather than more seats.

 

[Trainbike46]

People keep saying that, but the number of seats per metre length of train is not that different from other options. What differs is where the unused space is.

In this post I compared seating densities between various options:

Why are XC allowed to continue?

Some still exist - it is possible to commute from London to Keynsham and back (should anyone need to) on through trains as extra stops are made to provide commuter services to and from Bristol. Unsurprisingly, any Keynsham to London commuters have to change trains unless they work nights! I...

www.railforums.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 13:02 ==

This is down to the layout. It isn't right to directly compare very low density seating layouts (e.g. the mostly tables layout of the 397 and 805, the latter using First Class spacing in Standard so there is added behind-seats luggage space, something the FLIRT provides very badly) with a very tight, mostly airline layout as the FLIRTs have. That's why you can directly compare 397 and 805 (they have the same sort of layout) but really the FLIRT has a layout more like a 730/2 or 350/1 which is a lot more dense.

All of them are more generously spaced than Voyagers, but to be honest the Voyager isn't really a good example of very much above the sole bar other than a massive series of errors. You can make one nice by going for a low density layout (e.g. Avanti "Coach D"*) but if you do the capacity is so low you'd get more in a 3-car 170 than a 5-car Voyager.

* The 805/807 basically have that layout throughout, except the end coach which has slightly more airline seats but still on a very generous layout. The extra length and space efficiency has been largely used to provide more comfort rather than more seats.

To summarise the above post, a theoretical 12-car FLIRT with two powerpacks would have a similar seating density (seats per metre train length) to a 9-car 80x. As you may note, I compared there with GWR and LNER 800/801/802, as well as with the 220/221s. I did not compare to 805 or 397s, as they have a lower density layout but gain extra comfort and luggage space.

Every train has space unused for seating. In a FLIRT this is behind the cabs, and at the powerpacks (if present). 80x lose space at the ends of each carriage where it tapers narrower, which isn't a thing on FLIRTs. 22x seem to lose space just about everywhere.