Can Redhill - Ashford be upgraded into a high speed rail?

[miklcct]

This line is so straight that it seems that running it at 160 km/h is a huge waste. Can this line be upgraded into a high speed rail of 250 km/h?

 

[JonathanH]

This line is so straight that it seems that running it at 160 km/h is a huge waste. Can this line be upgraded into a high speed rail of 250 km/h?

What for? The only services on this route call at most stations.

Redhill to Tonbridge is a backwater with little off-peak custom and a reasonable level of short distance commuting in the peaks.

Ashford and places east have a separate high speed link to London.

The through demand from Redhill to Ashford isn't particularly significant - what services do people use when they get to Redhill? They are all fairly slow in relative terms.

 

[HST43257]

Also note third rail isn't good at high speeds (I think)

 

[PTR 444]

As much the Ashford - Redhill line would be perfect for a London avoiding high speed route (see HS4Air proposal), I do not believe there is sufficient demand to make such an upgrade viable, especially as it will always be quicker to go via Central London*

*Even if it a London bypass line like HS4Air was theoretically quicker, it would most likely have all trains calling at Gatwick and Heathrow as that is where any potential revenue would be.

 

[zwk500]

This line is so straight that it seems that running it at 160 km/h is a huge waste. Can this line be upgraded into a high speed rail of 250 km/h?

Any time you gained would be lost between Redhill and East Croydon as you can't go faster than the train in front. The distance between Redhill and Tonbridge is 22 miles. Tonbridge to Ashford is 25 miles. Raising the sped from 100mph to 150mph saves you 10 minutes, assuming nothing is in the way like a Channel Tunnel Freight, or the all-stations Redhill-Tonbridge stopper on that section. It would cost an absolute fortune to do so as you'd need to resignal and remodel the intermediate stations. And you wouldn't get the full benefit of that as you'd have to slow down approaching Redhill, Tonbridge and Ashford. Even if the rest of the formation is suitable (which I doubt for the full 250km/h).

Also note third rail isn't good at high speeds (I think)

Max 100mph in normal operation, but 90 is far more common as the marginal gains for the extra 10mph cost a lot. Raising the speed beyond 100mph would need conversion to OLE (or self-propelled trains).

 

[JonathanH]

For what it is worth, a 100mph train from Redhill to Tonbridge and Ashford calling at only those stations would be great but it would be moving a lot of fresh air around.

 

[yorksrob]

It's an excellent, fast route, but is still better suited to "Network Express" speeds between Ashford and Tonbridge (then via the Sevenoaks cut-off line) to London.

 

[cle]

It does seem underused - both the Redhill-Tonbridge section (now a sad shuttle), and the four tracks from Tonbridge to Ashford.

But given Windmill and other capacity issues, I can't see how best to use it. It's one of the few routes which has tons of capacity, but everywhere it heads to has restrictions, so it can't be utilized.

Would an express from say Three Bridges/Gatwick - Redhill - Tonbridge - Ashford - Canterbury - Ramsgate or Folkestone-Dover, with only those calls, be worthwhile? Or something fast up via Maidstone? I'm not sure, and definitely not with travel at its current rate, and Gatwick a shell of itself, with BA and Virgin unlikely to return.

 

[HST43257]

Max 100mph in normal operation, but 90 is far more common as the marginal gains for the extra 10mph cost a lot. Raising the speed beyond 100mph would need conversion to OLE (or self-propelled trains).

Yes, I was mainly referring to the OP's ideas of 155mph.

 

[JonathanH]

It does seem underused - both the Redhill-Tonbridge section (now a sad shuttle), and the four tracks from Tonbridge to Ashford.

Not really four tracks - passing loops at Paddock Wood and Headcorn - otherwise two tracks.

Would an express from say Three Bridges/Gatwick - Redhill - Tonbridge - Ashford - Canterbury - Ramsgate or Folkestone-Dover, with only those calls, be worthwhile? Or something fast up via Maidstone? I'm not sure, and definitely not with travel at its current rate, and Gatwick a shell of itself, with BA and Virgin unlikely to return.

No, probably not. I doubt anything is going to go fast via Maidstone, it isn't that sort of line. The problem here is that there isn't really enough economic activity on this route to justify much more than the service that currently runs.

As you say, Brighton / Victoria are out of reach due to capacity issues - west to Reading, the service looks towards Gatwick and Redhill isn't a huge interchange for anything north beyond Croydon that can't be reached by other means.

 

[zwk500]

Would an express from say Three Bridges/Gatwick - Redhill - Tonbridge - Ashford - Canterbury - Ramsgate or Folkestone-Dover, with only those calls, be worthwhile? Or something fast up via Maidstone? I'm not sure, and definitely not with travel at its current rate, and Gatwick a shell of itself, with BA and Virgin unlikely to return.

As you say, Brighton / Victoria are out of reach due to capacity issues - west to Reading, the service looks towards Gatwick and Redhill isn't a huge interchange for anything north beyond Croydon that can't be reached by other means.

Pre-covid there were plans for an Ashford-Gatwick service, but not sure how much that's got behind it at the moment. Redhill on it's own isn't very useful as you say, and the only place the BML reaches that Tonbridge can't is East Croydon, and even then you can change at Edenbridge or use tramlink from Beckenham Junction.

Fundamentally the line has been replaced by HS1 for the function it was really intended for. To upgrade the line in any meaningful way would be wasteful when there's a 300kph line already built.

 

[yorksrob]

No, probably not. I doubt anything is going to go fast via Maidstone, it isn't that sort of line. The problem here is that there isn't really enough economic activity on this route to justify much more than the service that currently runs.

As you say, Brighton / Victoria are out of reach due to capacity issues - west to Reading, the service looks towards Gatwick and Redhill isn't a huge interchange for anything north beyond Croydon that can't be reached by other means.

Fast trains have gone via Maidstone in the past. It's a slower route than Tonbridge but as the County town Maidstone is a bigger draw in itself.

I still think that there will be a market for fast trains to the West End from Ashford and points East, however it won't be a 155mph one.

 

[cle]

Yep I agree with those responses. It's a shame there isn't a huge draw, and especially now with Gatwick on the ropes.

To be clear, I wasn't think about speed upgrades on the Redhill-Ashford stretch, but using the line more as is.

Maidstone isn't really a big draw either, and it'd be too far to Ebbsfleet (and much faster via Ashford) if that exploded in population and activity - like the theme park.

If Gatwick was a true primary airport, I could see the need for Kent to have better access from its main towns and rail hubs. Much faster along there than a car too.

But it seems like the demand wouldn't be there, and likely the same if Brighton was added, or possible path-wise. Brighton-Ashford is a horrible journey, and quicker currently via London.

 

[JonathanH]

Fast trains have gone via Maidstone in the past. It's a slower route than Tonbridge but as the County town Maidstone is a bigger draw in itself.

Maidstone East yes, although they were "fast" in terms of stops, not speed. (I miss the announcements that used to use the word 'fast' when describing stuff like London Bridge then fast to Tonbridge, when what they really mean is non-stop.)

I was referring to Maidstone West which isn't really on the way to anything for a fast service from Redhill and Tonbridge.

 

[yorksrob]

Maidstone East yes, although they were "fast" in terms of stops, not speed. (I miss the announcements that used to use the word 'fast' when describing stuff like London Bridge then fast to Tonbridge, when what they really mean is non-stop.)

I was referring to Maidstone West which isn't really on the way to anything for a fast service from Redhill and Tonbridge.

Yes, the Medway Valley line has always seemed quite sleepy.

 

[D365]

This line is so straight that it seems that running it at 160 km/h is a huge waste. Can this line be upgraded into a high speed rail of 250 km/h?

”Can” it be upgraded? Yes. I don’t think you’re asking the right question here, i.e. whether it would remotely make sense to do so.

 

[Well Hall]

”Can” it be upgraded? Yes. I don’t think you’re asking the right question here, i.e. whether it would remotely make sense to do so.

Maybe as part of a HS3 York/Leeds-Stevenage-Stratford-Lewisham-Sanderstead-Redhill-Brighton/Ashford(Kent)-Hastings.

 

[alf]

I have found it difficult to understand why spending a fortune to resurrect the east west line north of London is deemed worthwhile whilst the existing east west line(Reading to Tonbridge & places east)is treated for almost half its length, as described in post 8, as a “sad shuttle.”

I believe the towns & their hinterland from Reading, Farnborough, Guildford, Reigate, Redhill & Tonbridge & the communities further east are just as populous & busy as the towns on the east west route north of London.

 

[JonathanH]

I have found it difficult to understand why spending a fortune to resurrect the east west line north of London is deemed worthwhile whilst the existing east west line(Reading to Tonbridge & places east)is treated for almost half its length, as described in post 8, as a “sad shuttle.”

I believe the towns & their hinterland from Reading, Farnborough, Guildford, Reigate, Redhill & Tonbridge & the communities further east are just as populous & busy as the towns on the east west route north of London.

With the best will in the world Farnborough, Guildford, Reigate, Redhill and Tonbridge do not have the economic potential of Oxford, Milton Keynes and Cambridge.

I'm any case, looking at Redhill to Ashford you are starting to look at areas that are more sparsely populated.

 

[zwk500]

I have found it difficult to understand why spending a fortune to resurrect the east west line north of London is deemed worthwhile whilst the existing east west line(Reading to Tonbridge & places east)is treated for almost half its length, as described in post 8, as a “sad shuttle.”

I believe the towns & their hinterland from Reading, Farnborough, Guildford, Reigate, Redhill & Tonbridge & the communities further east are just as populous & busy as the towns on the east west route north of London.

Travel patterns north of London are fundamentally different to those south of London. EWR is about enabling housing development along the corridor, and about connecting the big economic centres of Oxford and MK (and to a lesser extent cambridge).
In Sussex and Kent, its London or bust, unless you're on the coast. Redhill-Tonbridge is bisected by the Oxted lines so there's little demand for London via Redhill. Tonbridge - Ashford is already the London line and is constrained by capacity nearer London.

 

[Minstral25]

With the best will in the world Farnborough, Guildford, Reigate, Redhill and Tonbridge do not have the economic potential of Oxford, Milton Keynes and Cambridge.

I'm any case, looking at Redhill to Ashford you are starting to look at areas that are more sparsely populated.

Go up along Maidstone and Strood, then think about connections through to Croydon, Gatwick & Brighton at Redhill. Lot's of potential especially as places like Crawley are going to need urgent regeneration soon.