Can Train Drivers impose their own speed restrictions?

[dangie]

Apologies if this is in the wrong section.

If visibility should suddenly deteriorate, for example really thick mist or fog or even a blizzard, can train drivers take it upon themselves to slow down?

If not, why not, and if so how much would they need to explain for their actions and would there be any come back?

I’m asking as yesterday I watched a Don Coffey video where he mentioned that if in reduced visibility as long as the signal was green the driver could safely proceed at line speed. There must be occasions where at 100+ mph the visibility time of the signal must be fractions of a second.

 

[Robcuk]

I had to slow down yesterday and brake earlier as the train was slipping on the wet tracks and my sanding light was constantly lit.

Regarding visibility you should be fine as your route knowledge would mean you know where you are but I'd probably drive slightly slower when approaching stations - be silly to have an incident over the sake of a minute or two.

Regarding your example you would be using signals, aws warnings, bridges, points as reference points to your whereabouts.

 

[43066]

Apologies if this is in the wrong section.

If visibility should suddenly deteriorate, for example really thick mist or fog or even a blizzard, can train drivers take it upon themselves to slow down?

If not, why not, and if so how much would they need to explain for their actions and would there be any come back?

I’m asking as yesterday I watched a Don Coffey video where he mentioned that if in reduced visibility as long as the signal was green the driver could safely proceed at line speed. There must be occasions where at 100+ mph the visibility time of the signal must be fractions of a second.

Nothing to prevent a driver slowing down and it might be sensible if they’ve lost situational awareness. That said, continuing at linespeed can actually make things easier in this respect, even in low visibility.

There might be a need to explain the delay but “driving to the conditions” would suffice as an explanation - there would be no “come back” from management.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Nothing to prevent a driver slowing down and it might be sensible if they’ve lost situational awareness. That said, continuing at linespeed can actually make things easier in this respect, even in low visibility.

There might be a need to explain the delay but “driving to the conditions” would suffice as an explanation - there would be no “come back” from management.

And I'm assuming the paths are generous enough to allow for a substantial reduction in speed without the train behind becoming a threat, or would it automatically be notified somehow?

 

[stuu]

And I'm assuming the paths are generous enough to allow for a substantial reduction in speed without the train behind becoming a threat, or would it automatically be notified somehow?

That's what the signalling system is for, the signals behind won't clear until the train has cleared the signal section - it's entirely safe

 

[skyhigh]

And I'm assuming the paths are generous enough to allow for a substantial reduction in speed without the train behind becoming a threat, or would it automatically be notified somehow?

That's what the signalling system is for, to keep trains apart. There is no danger if a train runs more slowly than usual.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That's what the signalling system is for, the signals behind won't clear until the train has cleared the signal section - it's entirely safe

That's what the signalling system is for, to keep trains apart. There is no danger if a train runs more slowly than usual.

Of course! How silly of me to forget something like that
Thanks both.

 

[bahnause]

Sometimes the weather also causes speed restrictions against the will of the driver... I had a fun ride yesterday. I never got anywhere near the line speed on the gradients, too much wheel slip.The WSP software was working overtime, it did an excellent job.

 

[mike57]

In the case of the near miss at South Wingfield in October 2022 the driver of the following train reduced his speed considerably, and in doing so probably avoided an accident. Reading the report it seems like the driver was very unsure as to the exact issues, so took the cautious approach.

 

[Midlands5678]

We are told we can slow down if we feel we need to during low visibility. However that actually destroys what situational awareness you have left and you aren't where you think you are. Many drivers will still drive linespeed in thick fog unless on restrictive aspects.

 

[12LDA28C]

And I'm assuming the paths are generous enough to allow for a substantial reduction in speed without the train behind becoming a threat, or would it automatically be notified somehow?

On busy routes paths are not generous at all and to keep its path a train must travel at line speed - any reduction in speed would lead to late running and knock-on delays. Visual stimuli are not the only way that a driver can maintain awareness of their location, aural cues also play a part such as the train passing over pointwork, changes from CWR to jointed track and so on. It's very rare that a driver has to slow down based purely on poor visibility caused by thick fog or snow, except of course where mandated in the Rule Book due to safety system isolation etc.

 

[dk1]

Yes of course. Not something I would have done very often or would decide to do unless really necessary. Train drivers have a free rein to do anything they feel is required at the time for safety and as long as you put a report in or explain to the signaller and control will get no comeback.

 

[dangie]

Many thanks for the replies everyone.

 

[newtownmgr]

Yes a driver can use his/her route knowledge & experience in times of poor weather & track conditions. There are a couple of locations on routes that i sign that i will be 10 miles or so below line speed due to condition of the track. Even if NR haven’t imposed a temporary speed restriction.

Add to that running on restrictive signals on a couple of stretches we will keep the speed below a certain speed to ensure we keep moving as much as possible instead of stop/starting.

 

[D6130]

Add to that running on restrictive signals on a couple of stretches we will keep the speed below a certain speed to ensure we keep moving as much as possible instead of stop/starting.

When I was a guard at Brighton in the mid-1980s, all the peak hour expresses up the main line from Littlehampton, Worthing, Brighton, Seaford, Eastbourne and Ore were booked non-stop from Haywards heath to East Croydon at very close intervals....often only two minutes apart. Although the line speed was 90 mph, it was the practice of most drivers to cruise along at 50 on double yellows, which kept the train moving, but allowed a safe braking distance in case the train in front had to slow down or stop unexpectedly. On the long straight section between Balcombe Tunnel Junction and Salfords the driver would be able to see the tail lights of the train in front in clear visibility or at night.

 

[Boilinthebag]

Route knowledge is invaluable but there is a rule that refers to this:
TW1 Clause 22 - Poor visibility
The person responsible: driver

If you cannot see signals, block markers or lineside indicators soon enough to react to them during poor visibility, you must reduce the speed of your train as you consider necessary.

 

[ComUtoR]

Route knowledge is invaluable...

My worst/best

Driving a route I know intimately and just counting AWS magnets as I past each signal with barely a nod to each aspect. *Visibility at minimum but route knowledge at maximum. Still going linespeed and in full confidence I'd stop without issue.

but I'd probably drive slightly slower when approaching stations

Stations I find easier. They are pretty much absolute points where I know them inside and out. My braking point is always dialled in and I know the stopping point instinctively. They are generally well lit and have lots of retro reflective markers and people wearing high-vis.

I'm pretty good with route knowledge but precise signal location is difficult and I'm more of a general location; relative to stations. I'm way more defensive than I used to be (I'm getting old). Drivers are very good at adapting to the situation and not caring about anything outside their immediate circumstances. Kinda what makes us; well us.

Everyone home safe - everything else is secondary.





*319s can burn in the depths of hell !!

 

[king_walnut]

In fog I'm usually fine but there was this one time where I genuinely couldn't see a thing. Absolutely nothing at all. Could barely see the LED signals as I passed them.

It was a stopping service down a rural route. I absolutely dropped my speed. I'd rather have a 'please explain' in my pigeon hole for a 4 minute delay than a meeting with management for overshooting a station or having some kind of other incident. The first question they would ask is "If you were driving completely blind as you say then why were you at line speed?"


So to answer the question - yes. The driver can slow down on their own initiative for whatever reason they deem appropriate.

 

[43066]

When I was a guard at Brighton in the mid-1980s, all the peak hour expresses up the main line from Littlehampton, Worthing, Brighton, Seaford, Eastbourne and Ore were booked non-stop from Haywards heath to East Croydon at very close intervals....often only two minutes apart. Although the line speed was 90 mph, it was the practice of most drivers to cruise along at 50 on double yellows, which kept the train moving, but allowed a safe braking distance in case the train in front had to slow down or stop unexpectedly. On the long straight section between Balcombe Tunnel Junction and Salfords the driver would be able to see the tail lights of the train in front in clear visibility or at night.

On four aspects it should be possible to do this pretty comfortably at line speed (or else dropping to the speed at which the unit ahead of you is travelling, as I seem to spend a fair bit of my working day doing!). It’s quite satisfying if you time it right and see the aspect step up to green when you expect it to. Obviously you need to be ready to brake promptly if it doesn’t step up, so best to have half a signal section in hand.

 

[Don Coffey]

You can and you should impose a limit to suite the conditions. Running at line speed in poor visibility is ok as long as you are confident about where you are and those AWS magnets keep pinging but things change if you get cautionary aspects or you are stopping etc. The bottom line is, you don’t do anything reckless or unsafe.

 

[Route115?]

Many years ago I was on a train entering Marylebone tunnel when a steam special was coming out and the visibility dropped to close to zero. I could certainly feel the train rapidly reduce speed. I suppose in steam days that was a daily occurence and not possibly the first time in the driver's career.

 

[Tomnick]

Many years ago I was on a train entering Marylebone tunnel when a steam special was coming out and the visibility dropped to close to zero. I could certainly feel the train rapidly reduce speed. I suppose in steam days that was a daily occurence and not possibly the first time in the driver's career.

I've had that in the tunnels approaching Lime Street. I'd just passed the magnet for the red when the special passed me, and visibility suddenly dropped to as good as zero. I couldn't see *anything* – track, tunnel wall or least of all the signal. All I could do was stop and wait for it to clear.

 

[midland1]

In Southern Railway days the braking distance was worked out from sighting a yellow signal to the next red signal so drivers had to slow down in fog or snow so as not to SPAD to red.

 

[newtownmgr]

In Southern Railway days the braking distance was worked out from sighting a yellow signal to the next red signal so drivers had to slow down in fog or snow so as not to SPAD to red.

Pretty much standard throughout the railway. Signals spaced depending on line speed & braking distance for the heaviest train etc

 

[Gloster]

When I was out as lookout to a signal sighting meeting I was told that the minimum distance was from the point that the driver gets a clear, unobstructed and continuous view of the signal in clear weather. This was nearly forty years ago.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As I understand it you should be able to stop at a red signal from line speed (or the speed to which the train is restricted for other reasons such as brake force) from the point at which you first sight the first caution signal (yellow, double yellow, semaphore, whatever). If you can't, whether because of slippery conditions or because of poor visibility reducing the sighting distance, you should reduce speed.

 

[43066]

As I understand it you should be able to stop at a red signal from line speed (or the speed to which the train is restricted for other reasons such as brake force) from the point at which you first sight the first caution signal (yellow, double yellow, semaphore, whatever). If you can't, whether because of slippery conditions or because of poor visibility reducing the sighting distance, you should reduce speed.

That’s basically it, also known as “service braking distance” (which needs to be achievable for the worst performing train on the route).

 

[louis97]

The Railway Group Standard GKRT0075 states that the signalling braking distance is the distance between the signal exhibiting the first caution aspect and the signal at which the train is required to stop.

 

[Tomnick]

(Sorry, posted in error!)

 

[LowLevel]

I've had that in the tunnels approaching Lime Street. I'd just passed the magnet for the red when the special passed me, and visibility suddenly dropped to as good as zero. I couldn't see *anything* – track, tunnel wall or least of all the signal. All I could do was stop and wait for it to clear.

I remember passing a steam special in Cowburn Tunnel. The driver was most put out because his cab immediately filled with smoke as he had the window open and I had several panicked passengers banging on my door within seconds because the air conditioning had drawn the smoke into the saloon too - oops!