Car driver and passenger drown under Liverpool Railway Road Bridge

[John Luxton]

Those using rail services out of Liverpool will probably be aware that the Liverpool to Crewe line passes over the Liverpool Ring Road Queen's Drive near Mossley Hill Station.

Construction of what was then known as the Queen's Drive Subway, as it was then known, was undertaken in 1914 and involved some hefty engineering work to pass under the former LNWR mainline.

In 1926 a parallel road bridge was constructed next to the railway bridge.

Over the years this has been a notorious spot for flooding. It is only about three quarters of a mile from where I live.

I went to school near there and it was not unusual after a period of heavy rain for cars to run into the water and get stuck.

Such incidents have happen at least once a year, but nothing serious has happened car usually needs recovering and driver and occupants get a bit wet.

I don't think anyone would have thought there would ever be a fatality.

On Saturday evening - August 26 there was heavy rain around 21:00 which led the road to flood under the railway bridge.

It has just been announced this evening that the driver and passenger of a car were drowned last night

Liverpool flood deaths: Two die after driving car into floodwater

Passers-by fought to free the man and woman during a flash flood but they were later pronounced dead.

www.bbc.co.uk

Two people have died after becoming trapped in their car in a flooded road in Liverpool.
Police said they were called to Queens Drive in the Mossley Hill area at 21:00 BST on Saturday night.
Passers-by fought to help the man and woman who were stuck inside a black Mercedes in deep floodwater.
Emergency workers took them to hospital, but they were pronounced dead.
Met Office data shows that at the time of the incident on Saturday, the recorded rainfall was over 32mm an hour near where the incident happened.

One wonders who might actually be held liable for this Network Rail, City Council, Highways Authority in this litigious age or will it just be an act of God?

 

[AlterEgo]

Tragic. I wonder if the occupants were vulnerable or disabled, perhaps elderly? I'm struggling to see how you would get in so far and unable to get out of the vehicle.

 

[bramling]

Tragic. I wonder if the occupants were vulnerable or disabled, perhaps elderly? I'm struggling to see how you would get in so far and unable to get out of the vehicle.

As a general point, people don’t seem particularly good at assessing how much risk floodwater poses. In my time I’ve encountered a few flooded bridges, as well as swollen fords, and when taking the time to properly assess whether it’s safe (or sensible) to pass through have encountered both impatience and aggression from other road users.

It’s clearly a poor judgement thing, as you wouldn’t rationally drive your expensive car through something that could very easily wreck it, not to mention cause personal harm, yet people do it all the time.

 

[John Luxton]

Tragic. I wonder if the occupants were vulnerable or disabled, perhaps elderly? I'm struggling to see how you would get in so far and unable to get out of the vehicle.

Unless it was particularly deep?

This sort of thing happens at this location so regularly it has become a bit of a joke. I think the worst recorded incident prior to this was some one having to be rescued off the roof of their car by a dinghy. No one I don't think would have seen a tragedy in the making. It is quite unbelievable.

This is a comment from the Liverpool Echo web site:

Eyewitnesses described seeing a car submerged under water in the road on Saturday night.

Rebecca Wilson was traveling along Queens Drive when her taxi nearly went into the water at 9pm on Saturday evening. The 27-year-old said the water was around 15ft high. She believes the flooding may have come about because of a burst pipe.

She said: "We went to turn around the car and all of a sudden it looked like a waterfall coming down from the side of the bridge. As I looked back out of the window I turned to my mates and told them I thought I had just seen red lights under the water and I thought maybe someone had become stuck. I rang the police just to be safe."

Rebecca added: "The water just came out of nowhere and the rain was so heavy that night and a part of me just wished I had turned back and gone home. It was terrifying and I just thought I was seeing things at first and then I saw on the news that there was a car in there this morning.

Two dead after becoming trapped in car in flooded Liverpool road

Police confirm tragic news after car was submerged in heavy flooding in Queens Drive in south Liverpool on Saturday night

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

I don't live far from the location and whilst it did rain last night, I didn't particularly notice it as I was watching the TV, by the time I went to bed it had stopped.

As a general point, people don’t seem particularly good at assessing how much risk floodwater poses. In my time I’ve encountered a few flooded bridges, as well as swollen fords, and when taking the time to properly assess whether it’s safe (or sensible) to pass through have encountered both impatience and aggression from other road users.

It’s clearly a poor judgement thing, as you wouldn’t rationally drive your expensive car through something that could very easily wreck it, not to mention cause personal harm, yet people do it all the time.

I must admit I am very reluctant to drive through flood water. I usually turn around and try and find an alternative route.

If I can't see the kerb edge it is too deep!

 

[Towers]

One wonders who might actually be held liable for this Network Rail, City Council, Highways Authority in this litigious age or will it just be an act of God?

The driver of the car will be held ultimately liable as, sadly, they presumably drove into the water.

 

[snowball]

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[Buzby]

The driver of the car will be held ultimately liable as, sadly, they presumably drove into the water.

How does this differ from, say, a youth who climbs through a fence to cross a railway line perhaps to spray paint a tag on a bridge, and is incinerated by an electrical flash-over, and NR is liable for their stupidity?

 

[Sly Old Fox]

How does this differ from, say, a youth who climbs through a fence to cross a railway line perhaps to spray paint a tag on a bridge, and is incinerated by an electrical flash-over, and NR is liable for their stupidity?

One is on private land and one is on a public highway.

 

[Buzby]

One is on private land and one is on a public highway.

So unsound judgement by the protagonist plays no part in either case?

 

[uglymonkey]

I know this is probabily irrelevant, but I always wondered about electric windows, which get shorted out by the water. At least with an old car you could still wind the window down and get out. ( not saying this was the case here)

 

[Towers]

How does this differ from, say, a youth who climbs through a fence to cross a railway line perhaps to spray paint a tag on a bridge, and is incinerated by an electrical flash-over, and NR is liable for their stupidity?

Because the law very specifically obliges drivers to take full responsibility of where they drive their vehicle. Here, a brief summary would essentially be that the driver should not have entered flood water without knowing the depth or nature of it, and that is about it really. It is of course tragic and nothing changes that, but the issue of liability is what it is really.

 

[Snow1964]

I have heard of people getting stuck in floodwater in dark on country roads, because they misjudged depth in the dark,

Do they not have streetlights in Liverpool.

Not clear to me how anyone cannot spot a flood on a lit road, or how autonomous braking on a high end car decided there wasn't something in the way

 

[John Luxton]

I have heard of people getting stuck in floodwater in dark on country roads, because they misjudged depth in the dark,

Do they not have streetlights in Liverpool.

Not clear to me how anyone cannot spot a flood on a lit road, or how autonomous braking on a high end car decided there wasn't something in the way

There is lighting on approach to the bridge but not actually under it. Actually there are two bridges road and rail with just a few feet between this there is a large area in shadow.

Given the number of times this road has flooded and I mean it is a regular occurrence and has been for decades. It was certainly happening in the 1970s when I was at school nearby I can't understand why Road Liable to Flooding signs have never been placed on the approaches.

 

[Ediswan]

I know this is probabily irrelevant, but I always wondered about electric windows, which get shorted out by the water. At least with an old car you could still wind the window down and get out. ( not saying this was the case here)

Fresh water is not a good conductor. There are numerous videos and photos of submerged cars with their lights still on. We had a parked hire car flooded during Hurricane Fran (US, 1996). Once the water level had dropped, the car started and was driven back to the hire company to be swapped for a dry one.

 

[Edsmith]

If visibility is poor, darkness and heavy rain, it's easy to see how this happened. A similar thing happened in daylight at Wallington near Sutton although fortunately no loss of life on that occasion.

 

[stuu]

You don't need much water to stall a car, so driver misjudging the depth, thinking its a puddle. Car stalls, no immediate panic, maybe phone the AA. Meanwhile water rises and rises to the point the doors can't be opened... easily done, even by the perfect drivers on here

 

[Rescars]

If visibility is poor, darkness and heavy rain, it's easy to see how this happened. A similar thing happened in daylight at Wallington near Sutton although fortunately no loss of life on that occasion.

The Wallington bridge can be particularly misleading, because the the roadway was hollowed out many years ago to make sufficient headroom for double-decker buses. If flooded, it just looks like a low bridge. Local knowledge useful!

 

[Dan G]

It has just been announced this evening that the driver and passenger of a car were drowned last night

Liverpool flood deaths: Two die after driving car into floodwater

Passers-by fought to free the man and woman during a flash flood but they were later pronounced dead.

www.bbc.co.uk

One wonders who might actually be held liable for this Network Rail, City Council, Highways Authority in this litigious age or will it just be an act of God?

The driver is liable. They drove into a flood, which is obviously dangerous to do.

While rare, deaths of occupants of cars driven into floods are not unprecedented in the UK, though it's usually from driving into flooded fords.

How does this differ from, say, a youth who climbs through a fence to cross a railway line perhaps to spray paint a tag on a bridge, and is incinerated by an electrical flash-over, and NR is liable for their stupidity?

They aren't.

 

[randyrippley]

I've driven through there a few times and got a definite feeling of unease, especially at night. It's dark under those bridges

google maps view from the other side

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[Buzby]

They aren't.

Wasn’t there an instance recently where an operator ‘should have known’ that kids play in their freight yard and would naturally climb on the roof of wagons (close to OLE). Said operator was deemed negligent, prosecuted and fined due to their supposed failings?

 

[Grumpy Git]

I live two miles from this spot.

I was driving home at precisely this time on Saturday evening. As I passed the area close to Liverpool Airport I almost had to stop my car as the rain was so heavy, I couldn't actually see the road surface.

 

[Haywain]

Wasn’t there an instance recently where an operator ‘should have known’ that kids play in their freight yard and would naturally climb on the roof of wagons (close to OLE). Said operator was deemed negligent, prosecuted and fined due to their supposed failings?

There have been such cases but liability is not a black and white matter. A business has responsibilities under law to take all appropriate measures to ensure their premises are as safe as possible for both staff and others, but failures in those areas do not absolve intruders of any liability. So if a railway company has allowed the intrusion by failing to maintain perimeter fencing it cannot simply say that intruders shouldn't be there. However, this is drifting way off topic for this thread.

 

[Parjon]

I live two miles from this spot.

I was driving home at precisely this time on Saturday evening. As I passed the area close to Liverpool Airport I almost had to stop my car as the rain was so heavy, I couldn't actually see the road surface.

Indeed, and this particular stretch dips down over a considerable length. Combined with the size of the bridges it can be deceptive just how deep any water actually is there. What is deep may look like surface water. The article states someone else nearly drove into it, and things developed quite rapidly.

I do note that a considerable amount of vegetation appears to have disappeared from next to the railway track leading down to the road in the past six months. I do hope that had nothing to do with it. It's flooded before, but I don't recall it ever that deep. The drainage and road repairs down there also need looking at.

However, this is drifting way off topic for this thread.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[AndrewE]

Fresh water is not a good conductor. There are numerous videos and photos of submerged cars with their lights still on. We had a parked hire car flooded during Hurricane Fran (US, 1996). Once the water level had dropped, the car started and was driven back to the hire company to be swapped for a dry one.

This one was apparently only found because someone noticed the rear lights visible under the water...

I was wondering whetheer the jet of water onto the road could have been track drainage? An hour's very heavy rain onto a significant length of good free-draining ballast could generate a pretty heavy flow.

 

[John Luxton]

It appears that the victims were a local couple according to press reports today. Surprised they were not aware of how often this area floods as most of us who live around here are fully aware of it.

 

[Elecman]

Surprised if it floods historically to a noticeable depth that there isn’t a pumped drainage system installed

 

[Spartacus]

This one was apparently only found because someone noticed the rear lights visible under the water...

I was wondering whetheer the jet of water onto the road could have been track drainage? An hour's very heavy rain onto a significant length of good free-draining ballast could generate a pretty heavy flow.

There's houses between the road and railway, which is where it looks to be coming from in the video I've seen, could just have easily been a blocked drain overflowing with all the rain off the rooftops.

 

[Towers]

There's houses between the road and railway, which is where it looks to be coming from in the video I've seen, could just have easily been a blocked drain overflowing with all the rain off the rooftops.

The houses having paved or tarmac driveways/front gardens would likely contribute to the volume of run-off, too.

 

[Spartacus]

The houses having paved or tarmac driveways/front gardens would likely contribute to the volume of run-off, too.

Most of them around there have back yards and open out onto the street, so I doubt that'd be a huge factor in this case, though it won't help overall of course.

 

[urbophile]

There's houses between the road and railway, which is where it looks to be coming from in the video I've seen, could just have easily been a blocked drain overflowing with all the rain off the rooftops.

There are houses north of the bridges, but not between the two bridges I'm pretty sure. There's not much room for them.

There are houses north of the bridges, but not between the two bridges I'm pretty sure. There's not much room for them.

My mistake,I've just checked Google maps. There are houses on Briardale Road backing onto the railway (must be noisy!) but not immediately between the bridges. I doubt if the flooding was made worse because of them. As others have said, this spot is always prone to flooding, and unlike the usual drizzle the rain was very heavy and prolonged on Saturday night. But the least the council should have done, years ago, is mount clearly visible 'potential flood warning' signs, and improve the street lighting under both bridges.