Car driver and passenger drown under Liverpool Railway Road Bridge

[AlterEgo]

The couple have been named as an elderly married pair, Elaine and Philip Marco. No doubt their age has played a part in being unable to escape the tragic situation. Hopefully the coroner will have something to say about the flooding.

 

[modernrail]

I can’t see how Liverpool CC won’t be held partially liable for this. It is a known problem and has been for years. It is clearly an unusual dip and so needs an unusual warning system. We also know we are getting unusually (and now increasingly usual) heavy rain bursts and so sites like this need to be reassessed with that in mind, just as NR are having to do with potential landslip sites.

 

[Deepgreen]

I can’t see how Liverpool CC won’t be held partially liable for this. It is a known problem and has been for years. It is clearly an unusual dip and so needs an unusual warning system. We also know we are getting unusually (and now increasingly usual) heavy rain bursts and so sites like this need to be reassessed with that in mind, just as NR are having to do with potential landslip sites.

As personal responsibility continues to be eroded in the UK, where does this sort of thing stop? Dips under railway bridges are not that unusual, and the combination of an elderly driver (77), flash-flooding and the extreme difficulty/impossibilty of draining such a site in those conditions means that the rarity of the situation is surely to be regarded as an Act of God? I imagine that signs warning of a flood risk and/or even more lighting would have made little or no difference to such a driver attempting to pass the spot. The BBC News photos show lamp posts at regular intervals along the road, and, assuming they were working, reflections would have beeen obvious off the flood surface. Cars today give ever greater feellngs invincibility to their drivers, and can result in that feeling being proved horribly false, as here.

 

[Parham Wood]

Wasn’t there an instance recently where an operator ‘should have known’ that kids play in their freight yard and would naturally climb on the roof of wagons (close to OLE). Said operator was deemed negligent, prosecuted and fined due to their supposed failings?

There was an incident many years back at Allerton electric depot which I think was sort of not in use at the time but the overheads were still energised presumably because the sidings were still used occasionally. Some youngsters got through the paling fence and climbed onto the top of wagon with the foreseeable result. Whether they thought the power was off or were just ignorant of the danger I don't know. The fence had been breached several times by locals and I think NR just got fed up repairing it. They were held liable.

 

[snowball]

Some pictures of previous floods at the site in 2010 in this report.

Liverpool flood deaths: Married couple who died named by police

Elaine and Philip Marco were due to celebrate their 54th anniversary next week, their family says.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Edsmith]

Some pictures of previous floods at the site in 2010 in this report.

Liverpool flood deaths: Married couple who died named by police

Elaine and Philip Marco were due to celebrate their 54th anniversary next week, their family says.

www.bbc.co.uk

It's been a problem since the 1950s according to that article, realistically what can be done other than close the road completely? Dips under bridges like that are always going to be prone to flooding.

 

[stuu]

It's been a problem since the 1950s according to that article, realistically what can be done other than close the road completely? Dips under bridges like that are always going to be prone to flooding.

Dig a big hole under the road surface to use as a tank, then add in a (powerful) pump and a pipe to somewhere the water can flow away to. Expensive and needs maintaining, but that's what exists in other places

 

[73001]

It's been a problem since the 1950s according to that article, realistically what can be done other than close the road completely? Dips under bridges like that are always going to be prone to flooding.

They put a pump system under the Kirkby line near to Aintree. The road flooded there frequently to a depth too deep for cars. Council eventually put a sump and pump system in (different council though).

 

[8A Rail]

You don't need much water to stall a car, so driver misjudging the depth, thinking its a puddle. Car stalls, no immediate panic, maybe phone the AA. Meanwhile water rises and rises to the point the doors can't be opened... easily done, even by the perfect drivers on here

I am also familiar with the location, drove under the bridge many occasion but it is a well known spot to be flooded and has been for many a year. However, I think what you describe above is I 'think' what has happened and the driver decided to make a judgement call as I doubt he would of drove into a flooded area knowing it was higher than the car in the first instance. I suspect the level of the water may of been / was acceptable to drive the car through but got stuck with the result, an unexpected amount of water gush down and raise the levels quicker than he could imagine. We have all seen (via the media clips) what happens when there is 'sudden surge of flood water' it consumes the area in a very short time.

I know in St Helens on Peasley Cross Road which goes under the former railway line between the two St Helens stations, the council have placed warning signs about possible flooding under the bridge along with traffic lights and I think 'barriers' too to prevent vehicles from using it when there is heavy rain. May be Liverpool CC could do the same here (or may should of done already)?

Regardless my thoughts to the deceased family and friends.

 

[modernrail]

As personal responsibility continues to be eroded in the UK, where does this sort of thing stop? Dips under railway bridges are not that unusual, and the combination of an elderly driver (77), flash-flooding and the extreme difficulty/impossibilty of draining such a site in those conditions means that the rarity of the situation is surely to be regarded as an Act of God? I imagine that signs warning of a flood risk and/or even more lighting would have made little or no difference to such a driver attempting to pass the spot. The BBC News photos show lamp posts at regular intervals along the road, and, assuming they were working, reflections would have beeen obvious off the flood surface. Cars today give ever greater feellngs invincibility to their drivers, and can result in that feeling being proved horribly false, as here.

The death of 2 people is a pretty good place to draw a line surely. If the reality is more flash flooding, more regularly with deeper flooding then we need systems and approaches to deal with that. Yes that means much more warning in driving tests but other awareness raising including at the site. The dip at this site is particularly big, so it does feel like it needs a better on-site solution.

 

[urbophile]

As personal responsibility continues to be eroded in the UK, where does this sort of thing stop? Dips under railway bridges are not that unusual, and the combination of an elderly driver (77), flash-flooding and the extreme difficulty/impossibilty of draining such a site in those conditions means that the rarity of the situation is surely to be regarded as an Act of God? I imagine that signs warning of a flood risk and/or even more lighting would have made little or no difference to such a driver attempting to pass the spot. The BBC News photos show lamp posts at regular intervals along the road, and, assuming they were working, reflections would have beeen obvious off the flood surface. Cars today give ever greater feellngs invincibility to their drivers, and can result in that feeling being proved horribly false, as here.

Having seen pictures of the road in flood, yes indeed you can see the surface of the water, but little or no indication of how deep it is. it is a very steep dip so the water is much deeper in the middle. At night, when you assume the road surface is more or less level, it must be very deceptive.

 

[Prime586]

This one was apparently only found because someone noticed the rear lights visible under the water...

I was wondering whetheer the jet of water onto the road could have been track drainage? An hour's very heavy rain onto a significant length of good free-draining ballast could generate a pretty heavy flow.

From looking at the videos on youtube, the water is pouring (at a frankly startling rate) over the low retaining wall on the north side of the road between the railway bridge and the Briardale Road bridge. There are storm drain gullies along Briardale Road either side of the road bridge (the bridge itself doesn't have any, but it is slightly arched to provide drainage to each end), and there are houses filling the gap between the road and railway.

The houses along Briardale Road are a mix of victorian terraces and early 20th century semis. The gutters on the front of the terraces drain into the storm drain gullies on the road over the pavement. On the semis the drainpipes appear to go into gullies on the property that are likely plumbed into the sewers (which was allowed until relatively recently). The rainfall from Briardale Road and the properties on it would be going into either the sewers or the storm drains, so unless the storm drain is breached near the northern end of the bridges, that only leaves the trackside cess as a possible source of the water seen pouring over the retaining wall.

There are storm drain gullies either side of Queens Drive as it dives under the bridges (there are even double grids installed near the railway bridge), but unless there was a very high capacity pump connected to them, there's no way they would have been able to clear the influx of water seen coming over that wall in the videos by gravity alone.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Dig a big hole under the road surface to use as a tank, then add in a (powerful) pump and a pipe to somewhere the water can flow away to. Expensive and needs maintaining, but that's what exists in other places

It's done in other places, and may even be done here, but there will always be the (1 in 100? 1 in 1000? 1 in a million?) flash flood where the ingress of water is greater than the maximum rate of the pump, so it will take time to clear.

Possible lower tech solution would be traffic lights lunked to a float switch, so the lights go to "road closed" when the water level at the lowest point of the dip reaches, say 18 inches/ 50cm.

 

[Prime586]

Possible lower tech solution would be traffic lights lunked to a float switch, so the lights go to "road closed" when the water level at the lowest point of the dip reaches, say 18 inches/ 50cm.

For most modern cars, 50cm is far too deep (see the many youtube videos of cars attempting to cross Rufford Mill Ford before the council closed it, for instance). They have their engine air intakes around the radiator grille area, so the bow wave effect on top of 18 inches of water would submerge the intake.

You have to get to serious offroad 4x4 territory before you find cars with a wading depth of 50cm or greater. Most normal cars and even SUVs have a wading depth of less than 30cm.

 

[norbitonflyer]

For most modern cars, 50cm is far too deep (see the many youtube videos of cars attempting to cross Rufford Mill Ford before the council closed it, for instance). They have their engine air intakes around the radiator grille area, so the bow wave effect on top of 18 inches of water would submerge the intake.

You have to get to serious offroad 4x4 territory before you find cars with a wading depth of 50cm or greater. Most normal cars and even SUVs have a wading depth of less than 30cm.

30cm then - although at 50cm the vehicle might get stranded, but you're not going to drown.

 

[boing_uk]

Those saying "build a tank to store the water": where exactly? The tank will have to be AT LEAST the size of the flooded underpass to store the water.

Grimsby has a few underpasses that also flood, which is due to the inadequacies of the local sewer system. Indeed the pumps for them as specifically set to shut down when the sewers are overwhelmed and the underpasses flood.

Heavy rain = flooding.

Tragic as this is, the fact remains that a driver must take the road as they find it and drive their vehicle with all due regard for the the safety of others and themselves.

The highway authority is under zero obligation to provide ANY warning signs for hazards that a reasonable driver can see.

 

[SargeNpton]

Those saying "build a tank to store the water": where exactly? The tank will have to be AT LEAST the size of the flooded underpass to store the water.

Grimsby has a few underpasses that also flood, which is due to the inadequacies of the local sewer system. Indeed the pumps for them as specifically set to shut down when the sewers are overwhelmed and the underpasses flood.

Heavy rain = flooding.

Tragic as this is, the fact remains that a driver must take the road as they find it and drive their vehicle with all due regard for the the safety of others and themselves.

The highway authority is under zero obligation to provide ANY warning signs for hazards that a reasonable driver can see.

I've seen several warning signs along the lines of Road Liable To Flooding, mostly out of urban areas. Can't see any reason why any vulnerable areas in towns/cities don't have the same.

 

[modernrail]

I've seen several warning signs along the lines of Road Liable To Flooding, mostly out of urban areas. Can't see any reason why any vulnerable areas in towns/cities don't have the same.

Either can I. It is ludicrous to suggest that where you can see a hazard, there is no responsibility on the LA to act. Also, you can’t see the full hazard at spots like this.

The country is covered with triangular signs saying Flood just before dips in roads and with flash flooding on the increase there is absolutely no reason why signs cannot be added in vulnerable locations saying flash flooding location - beware and ideally the sign itself flashing. In the whole of Liverpool there might only be a few such sites so it is hardly a big deal to install some good warning signs.

 

[8A Rail]

For most modern cars, 50cm is far too deep (see the many youtube videos of cars attempting to cross Rufford Mill Ford before the council closed it, for instance). They have their engine air intakes around the radiator grille area, so the bow wave effect on top of 18 inches of water would submerge the intake.

You have to get to serious offroad 4x4 territory before you find cars with a wading depth of 50cm or greater. Most normal cars and even SUVs have a wading depth of less than 30cm.

A good percentage of cars have a floor level around 15cm to 20cm with SUV's etc being higher for obvious reasons and to consider ploughing through water deeper than that is risky at best, so best to avoid is the best tact. However, what you now got to take into consideration and definitely more for the future is 'electric' vehicles were the battery packs tend to be under the floor and although they are well sealed in (I assume), if water comes in contact with the power packs, then I imagine there be considerable consequences if flooded by water, so best option is not to consider driving through as an example, a 20cm flood?

 

[urbophile]

The highway authority is under zero obligation to provide ANY warning signs for hazards that a reasonable driver can see.

I think the point here is that a reasonable driver can't necessarily see. There is poor to non-existent street lighting at this point and it is impossible to guess the depth of water unless you are very familiar with the sharp dip in the road (and even if you are, you might be confused).

 

[Killingworth]

I think the point here is that a reasonable driver can't necessarily see. There is poor to non-existent street lighting at this point and it is impossible to guess the depth of water unless you are very familiar with the sharp dip in the road (and even if you are, you might be confused).

And at the time of this incident heavy rain may have further reduced visibility.

However we still have the issue of being able to leave the car once it's cut out. At what point would you realise that you were going to have to open the door and wade out before discovering the doors wouldn't open and the water levele isn't going to stop rising.? Breaking windows and climbing out would be hard enough for a young person but almost in the dark, soaking wet and over 70 clearly impossible.

 

[Parham Wood]

Installing a pumping system would work but could be prone to clogging up if not maintain regularly.

 

[jon0844]

Can't technology sense flooding and give automatic warnings until such time a solution is found to the flooding problem?

I looked at the photo from 2010 and it's quite terrifying because frankly I'm amazed more people aren't caught out. This isn't like that (now closed) Ford that got famous on YouTube as people took risks (but never a risk of death, just messing up their car), this is a serious danger to all.

 

[Edsmith]

It seems the road is going to remain closed for sometime, I don't know the area but I wonder if it might be closed permanently?

 

[childwallblues]

It seems the road is going to remain closed for sometime, I don't know the area but I wonder if it might be closed permanently?

Not a chance of permanent closure. Any diversion would have to be via a main road and would add miles to any journey. Queens Drive is a main artery around the city. Alternatives each side over the railway Rose Lane and Penny Lane are narrow and have lots of parked cars.
The sad thing is that the couple had lived locally for many years and almost certainly would have used the road on a regular basis.

 

[John Luxton]

It seems the road is going to remain closed for sometime, I don't know the area but I wonder if it might be closed permanently?

Queen's Drive is the ring road. There are two Schools nearby which open next week Liverpool College and St Anthony's Primary, and Dovedale School is only on the other site. Plus in a couple of weeks the Students return to the various halls of residences. I can't see it being left closed as it would cause very serious issues.

 

[8A Rail]

It seems the road is going to remain closed for sometime, I don't know the area but I wonder if it might be closed permanently?

As both John Luxton and Childwall Blues have stated, not a chance of permanent closure. Liverpool CC will have to reopen it asap otherwise come next week, there will be total gridlock in the area and I am not just suggesting at Peak Hour either. Even now, the closure will causing numerous issues with traffic in the area, as the alternative routes to avoid the location are two way road with general parking on most of them.

 

[Edsmith]

As both John Luxton and Childwall Blues have stated, not a chance of permanent closure. Liverpool CC will have to reopen it asap otherwise come next week, there will be total gridlock in the area and I am not just suggesting at Peak Hour either. Even now, the closure will causing numerous issues with traffic in the area, as the alternative routes to avoid the location are two way road with general parking on most of them.

Maybe have a staff presence at the bridge 24/7 ready to close the road at a moments notice in the event of rain and flooding until a permanent solution can be found?

 

[jon0844]

There must be a way to detect heavy rainfall and activate digital signs to close the road.

 

[185]

The driver is liable. They drove into a flood, which is obviously dangerous to do.

I think the courts may disagree with you wrong on this, I see both Liverpool City Council and Network Rail both in the dock in the months to come.

It's 2100 Saturday night, dark.
The lighting in the underpass often doesn't work or is very, very dim.
If you're driving towards Sefton Park (ie Westbound, towards the river) it is pretty dark beyond the bridge.

- The legal test would be, could someone with ordinary vision have easily seen the flood in this unusual, dark, covered location?
- Did the structure's owners, maintainers and associated utilities do enough to prevent this?

I know the diveunder well, and 25 years ago when the drainage was well maintained by LCC it still got a substantial puddle when it rained. In this modern world of councils not doing any maintenance and the water firms denying any responsibility, this happens - and a metre deep flood is to be expected.

Personally, I see a prosecution, possibly by the HSE. We shall wait and see.