Car v Narrow Gauge........Oops! ( Welshpool and Llanfair Railway )

[Llanigraham]

It isn't just on the "big" railway that level crossing abuse happens. This was yesterday on the Welshpool and Llanfair.
http://www.mywelshpool.co.uk/viewernews/ArticleId/14698

Crew members, 77 passengers and a vehicle driver escaped injury when a car was in collision with a Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway train at the Cyfronydd Station crossing yesterday.

A full investigation into the incident has now been launched and services on the railway are expected to return to normal after being suspended following yesterday’s incident at 11.45am.

A statement from the Light Railway said: “At approximately 11.45am on Thursday a car was in collision with a Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway (W&LLR) train forming the 11.15 service from Welshpool to Llanfair Caereinion, while the train was passing over the level crossing at Cyfronydd station.

“Thankfully the incident resulted in no injuries to the driver of the car, the locomotive crew or the 77 passengers and staff on the train. However the car was significantly damaged in the collision, and damage was also caused to locomotive no 823 Countess.

“Operations on the line were immediately suspended while authorities were informed. Police attended the scene and took statements, while following correct procedure the railway informed the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB), the UK body for rail safety.

“Following consultation with the RAIB, the W&LLR was permitted to resume operations. However the rest of the day’s services were cancelled while stock involved in the incident was returned to Llanfair Caereinion.

“The W&LLR organised road coaches to return the train’s passengers to their station of origin.

“The W&LLR has begun a full investigation into this incident.”

 

[Gareth Marston]

You've really got to be half asleep to not see or hear the train at that spot - not surprised though.

I wear my railway hi viz to walk to work - the amount of cretins that drive over Zebra Crossing when theirs people on it or about to step on in Newtown is unbelievable.

 

[Malcmal]

You've really got to be half asleep to not see or hear the train at that spot - not surprised though.

Not excusing this but I do see a blue sky and full sunshine in the picture. Possibly the driver was dazzled by a low April sun??

I wear my railway hi viz to walk to work - the amount of cretins that drive over Zebra Crossing when theirs people on it or about to step on in Newtown is unbelievable.

Drivers are not obliged to stop until you actually step onto the crossing if I remember correctly. There are times people stand and gossip and LOOK like they want to cross. Obviously I am not disputing the "amount of cretins" comment though

 

[Bletchleyite]

Drivers are not obliged to stop until you actually step onto the crossing if I remember correctly. There are times people stand and gossip and LOOK like they want to cross. Obviously I am not disputing the "amount of cretins" comment though

Though UK convention is to stop if someone looks like they want to cross. Is there a large population from elsewhere in the EU around there, perchance? The convention in other parts of the EU is rather different.

(Looking for a genuine reason rather than "cretins" - I put the tendency to cycle on the right rather than the left on the MK Redways down to something similar)

 

[PaulLothian]

Not excusing this but I do see a blue sky and full sunshine in the picture. Possibly the driver was dazzled by a low April sun??

Probably not, as the sun is fairly high in the sky now at that time of day (40 degrees?). Neither the road not the railway are in line with it.

 

[AM9]

Probably not, as the sun is fairly high in the sky now at that time of day (40 degrees?). Neither the road not the railway are in line with it.

It's strange how some look to sun/dazzle etc., as an excuse for level crossing/pedestrian crossing/traffic lights violations. Do these same bad-driving apologists think that driving blind is acceptable?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Drivers are not obliged to stop until you actually step onto the crossing if I remember correctly. There are times people stand and gossip and LOOK like they want to cross. Obviously I am not disputing the "amount of cretins" comment though

Some around here don't seem to think they have to stop when your on it!

 

[bramling]

It's strange how some look to sun/dazzle etc., as an excuse for level crossing/pedestrian crossing/traffic lights violations. Do these same bad-driving apologists think that driving blind is acceptable?

Given how some, or perhaps I’d go as far as to say many or even most, people drive during fog, I’d say the answer to your question may well be yes.

 

[Llanigraham]

Not excusing this but I do see a blue sky and full sunshine in the picture. Possibly the driver was dazzled by a low April sun??

I very much doubt it, knowing the geography at that crossing.

Oh, and it turns out the old lady hasn't renewed her car tax! Expired on 1st April.

 

[Malcmal]

It's strange how some look to sun/dazzle etc., as an excuse for level crossing/pedestrian crossing/traffic lights violations. Do these same bad-driving apologists think that driving blind is acceptable?

I am not a bad driving apologist thank you very much. BUT if this is an ungated crossing AND the lights were not visible due to the sun then this changes the story a lot. According to people who know the area the angle of sun is wrong so probably this isn't a reason. But anyway, back in your box AM9 aka Mr Shouty

 

[keith1879]

I am not a bad driving apologist thank you very much. BUT if this is an ungated crossing AND the lights were not visible due to the sun then this changes the story a lot. According to people who know the area the angle of sun is wrong so probably this isn't a reason. But anyway, back in your box AM9 aka Mr Shouty

Surely it makes it even worse ....if you are blinded at a level crossing what would you do ....take extra care - wind down the window and listen perhaps? Or just think **** it and drive on regardless.

 

[Malcmal]

Surely it makes it even worse ....if you are blinded at a level crossing what would you do ....take extra care - wind down the window and listen perhaps? Or just think **** it and drive on regardless.

I am not talking about the sun in your face - I am on about it being from behind so you can see clearly but level crossing lights (or traffic lights) can be obliterated by the intense light. It's alright for the likes of you and I who are familiar with railway operations to look down on these people but ungated crossings are always at risk of this. Not everyone is at your level - this person most likely held a valid driving licence so your arguments are better aimed at the DVLA and their testing regime.

 

[keith1879]

Not looking down on anybody - but driving is a major responsibility. There are dozens of possible reasons which might explain why the driver found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time but in the end either the driver of the car has done something wrong - the driver of the train has done something wrong or the crossing is so appallingly unsafe that it should be closed. I doubt the latter for the simple reason that the railway has been running for 50 years or more in preservation and the crossing is still open. So at least one of the drivers is in the wrong.

 

[StoneRoad]

Most of these cases the road driver is at fault, tbh.
I seem to remember a similar case on the Metro, when the on-coming train threaded a school bus, luckily sans kids.
The "excuse" was sunlight dazzling and crossing appeared to be not working ... the later tested out properly.

One of my Driving Test questions concerned signage at level crossings, I think the examiner realised I "knew me onions" after a couple of minutes ...

 

[mallard]

The issue of ambient light making signals hard to read (or even giving the appearance of a different aspect) is a well-known phenomenon on both the roads and the rails. The RAIB report into a collision at Beech Hill Level Crossing in 2012 went into great detail about this issue with rural level crossings and concluded that it was the underlying "causal factor". In that case, the brightness of the "wig wags" was found to below specification and difficult to see at the time. That was a crossing that had existed for well over a century on the national network; so a crossing existing for 50 years on a preserved line is no guarantee that it has been maintained to a modern, safe standard!

Of course, the Ladbroke Grove incident was at least partly believed to have been caused by a similar phenomenon affecting a train driver.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Though UK convention is to stop if someone looks like they want to cross. Is there a large population from elsewhere in the EU around there, perchance? The convention in other parts of the EU is rather different.

(Looking for a genuine reason rather than "cretins" - I put the tendency to cycle on the right rather than the left on the MK Redways down to something similar)

I remember when I used to work in Spain a couple of times a year. No drivers ever stopped at pedestrian crossings until a nun appeared, then they would jam on the anchors. I was never sure if the nuns stepped into the road with faith, or were pushed, but it certainly worked and I never saw one knocked down.

 

[Llanigraham]

This is the approach to the crossing in question:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6...832&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Note, there are NO lights, so discussion about them causing this incident is pointless.

 

[keith1879]

For anyone who actually wants to examine the facts about Cyfronydd Station crossing it can be easily viewed on Google streetview. As you will see there are no lights (obscured by sun or otherwise) but there are some fairly obvious signs. Also it is on a very small road (single track by the look of it). I seriously doubt that there is any explanation for this accident other than inattention on the part of one of the drivers (and my money is on the road user) - but let's wait and see what the report says.

 

[Worf]

I see that they blurred out the car reg in the photos, but not the number on "Countless"

 

[341o2]

I thought that with a level crossing without gates or lights, road users are obliged to stop and check that it is safe to cross. A train is obliged to approach with caution and sound warning of its approach.

The narrow gauge does seem to encourage "it's only a toy train" mentality, the Romney Hythe & Dymchurch have seen a few such collisions, including one train driver fatility

 

[paul1609]

I thought that with a level crossing without gates or lights, road users are obliged to stop and check that it is safe to cross. A train is obliged to approach with caution and sound warning of its approach.

Not down here in Kent, this is the national network, the RHDR is not far away but has a higher standard of crossings! https://www.google.com/maps/@50.98...49.08408&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

 

[SussexMan]

Not down here in Kent, this is the national network, the RHDR is not far away but has a higher standard of crossings!

I don't understand the "Not down here in Kent" comment in respect of the previous post:

I thought that with a level crossing without gates or lights, road users are obliged to stop and check that it is safe to cross. A train is obliged to approach with caution and sound warning of its approach.

The Give Way signs tell me that road users are obliged to Give Way to trains (if necessary that would mean stopping). And yes it is the National Network but low train speeds and the train does sound warning of its approach.

 

[341o2]

The fact that the car driver was uninjured would indicate that the train was travelling slowly, and unless it can be proven that the whistle was not sounded and the loco crew failed to keep a proper lookout, I cannot see any reason why the railway is to blame. If it happened locally, many would be commenting on another elderly driver clearly unfit to have a licence like a recent incident where one opened her door to see more clearly when parking, fell out, the car ran away, hit and killed a pedestrian and ended up on the beach

 

[paul1609]

I don't understand the "Not down here in Kent" comment in respect of the previous post:



The Give Way signs tell me that road users are obliged to Give Way to trains (if necessary that would mean stopping). And yes it is the National Network but low train speeds and the train does sound warning of its approach.

If the road user was obliged to stop and check there were no trains coming the appropriate road sign would be a red stop sign?
That is not the case on any of the uncontrolled crossings that I know of in Kent.

 

[SussexMan]

If the road user was obliged to stop and check there were no trains coming the appropriate road sign would be a red stop sign?
That is not the case on any of the uncontrolled crossings that I know of in Kent.

The Give Way sign indicates that the road user must give way to any trains but does not have to stop before proceeding. So the only thing they aren't required to do is to stop - but they MUST give way.

 

[oscarsmate]

This is the approach to the crossing in question:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6608002,-3.2759933,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shBOHcr6LYiQ6ehRhlb67Sg!2e0!6s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=hBOHcr6LYiQ6ehRhlb67Sg&output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&thumb=2&w=203&h=100&yaw=176.49832&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Note, there are NO lights, so discussion about them causing this incident is pointless.

It would appear there are manual gates on that view so presumably there would have to be a member of staff to operate.

 

[Redonian]

The gates on both sides are closed against the train. If I remember the procedure correctly (in both directions) the fireman gets out and opens both gates. He then stands by the road, signals the loco forwards if there is no road traffic, until the loco reaches him and then gets back on the footplate. The loco is travelling at walking pace. When clear of the crossing it stops in the station when heading towards Welshpool whereupon the guard closes the gates. In the other direction the loco is again moving very slowly and when clear of the crossing it stops so again the guard can close the gates. As has already been mentioned there are no lights controlling the crossing but there are some very obvious signs and road traffic is obliged to give way.

 

[Cowley]

The fact that the car driver was uninjured would indicate that the train was travelling slowly, and unless it can be proven that the whistle was not sounded and the loco crew failed to keep a proper lookout, I cannot see any reason why the railway is to blame. If it happened locally, many would be commenting on another elderly driver clearly unfit to have a licence like a recent incident where one opened her door to see more clearly when parking, fell out, the car ran away, hit and killed a pedestrian and ended up on the beach

Blimey . That’s terrible.

 

[david_g]

There are no longer gates on the crossing at Cyfronydd, it is now an open crossing with 5mph restriction and sound whistle signs on the approach in both directions. There are also mirrors to help the traincrew check for approaching road vehicles. For road vehicles there are the Give Way and other warning signs visible in the Streetview images.

The direction of approach for train and road vehicle in this incident is the best of the four possible combinations for visibility.

 

[Waldgrun]

There are no longer gates on the crossing at Cyfronydd, it is now an open crossing with 5mph restriction and sound whistle signs on the approach in both directions. There are also mirrors to help the traincrew check for approaching road vehicles. For road vehicles there are the Give Way and other warning signs visible in the Streetview images.

The direction of approach for train and road vehicle in this incident is the best of the four possible combinations for visibility.

With regards to Streetview it should be noted that these images date from 2010! About 4-5 years ago a full review of crossings was undertaken after a similar incident at New Drive crossing near Welshpool where a 4x4 vehicle was involved, which resulted in the line having to put barriers at Castle Caereinion station at a cost of well over a Hundred Thousand if I recall correctly, lets hope that this action is not required at Cyfronydd!