Cardiff Parkway

[John R]

The issue with park way type stations is that one exists, Bristol Parkway, and that has trains to London, Birmingham and Bristol Temple Meads.

Just think about that for a minute, in respect of Welsh commuters travelling to central Bristol, or even Abbey Wood, which would be a big source of traffic and potential modal shift.

Bristol Parkway (BPW) is no longer in the country, in the way it was in 1972. It's now reached via very busy roads that can be very congested in rush hour. So anyone using it has to allow a lot of additional time for traffic delays. In contrast, journey times to Severn Tunnel Junction (STJ) parking will be very reliable.

Next the cost - £8.90 for a day, which is more than the cost of the journey down into Temple Meads (£5.80 return). So who's going to pay that?

The absurdity of using BPW for Abbey Wood commuters, would be even greater - you're nearly there, and indeed, there is also a lot of employment around BPW and Patchway too.

Finally, STJ also has good links to Gloucester, Cheltenham and the north, so BPW doesn't have a monopoly on good connections there. I'd suggest it would be a lot faster to catch the XC country service from STJ to Gloucester or Cheltenham than to drive over to BPW to do so.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

I've contacted the WG on socials a few times about Cardiff Parkway and get ignored. This has been called in for well over a year, no point having a government who are working against us, we've already got one of those in Westminster.

Might I suggest writing to your MS? Government isn't a social media operation like most businesses and they will give out much less they're than to an MS.

Just think about that for a minute, in respect of Welsh commuters travelling to central Bristol, or even Abbey Wood, which would be a big source of traffic and potential modal shift.

Bristol Parkway (BPW) is no longer in the country, in the way it was in 1972. It's now reached via very busy roads that can be very congested in rush hour. So anyone using it has to allow a lot of additional time for traffic delays. In contrast, journey times to Severn Tunnel Junction (STJ) parking will be very reliable.

Next the cost - £8.90 for a day, which is more than the cost of the journey down into Temple Meads (£5.80 return). So who's going to pay that?

The absurdity of using BPW for Abbey Wood commuters, would be even greater - you're nearly there, and indeed, there is also a lot of employment around BPW and Patchway too.

Finally, STJ also has good links to Gloucester, Cheltenham and the north, so BPW doesn't have a monopoly on good connections there. I'd suggest it would be a lot faster to catch the XC country service from STJ to Gloucester or Cheltenham than to drive over to BPW to do so.

The other thing is that for South Monmouthshire the bus to Bristol is now much worse than it used to be, taking much longer to get into Central Bristol, so there could be a very small shift there.

Newport is now very much commuter belt for Newport so these new stations would not go amis for a lot of people, although probably not enough to

If you want to catch the XC from STJ you can only do it first thing or last thing, it just fills wholes in the TfW services

 

[Topological]

The challenge for STJ as a railhead would be that there are only 2 trains to Bristol per hour, where Parkway has more. I did not find getting into Bristol Parkway that onerous off peak, though did find 55 minutes from Newport to parking a little slow the one time I tried the peak journey.

IF we saw Bristol Temple Meads electrified then maybe there could be a better service along the route that would open up opportunities for a more regular service from STJ. The benefits of such a service (in conjunction with other stations and associated Cardiff benefits) would seem like a sensible motivation for the electrification from Parkway to Temple Meads (and associated chords).

Again I doubt we have the ambition when it comes to infrastructure investment.

 

[WesternBiker]

Just think about that for a minute, in respect of Welsh commuters travelling to central Bristol, or even Abbey Wood, which would be a big source of traffic and potential modal shift.

Bristol Parkway (BPW) is no longer in the country, in the way it was in 1972. It's now reached via very busy roads that can be very congested in rush hour. So anyone using it has to allow a lot of additional time for traffic delays. In contrast, journey times to Severn Tunnel Junction (STJ) parking will be very reliable.

Next the cost - £8.90 for a day, which is more than the cost of the journey down into Temple Meads (£5.80 return). So who's going to pay that?

Indeed. Getting to Bristol Parkway by car in the rush hour can be very slow going. I hadn't realised the cost of parking there now - that's quite a disincentive for a regular commuter.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Well thank goodness Wentloog Freightliner Terminal was built before all this nonsense blew-up!

 

[John R]

though did find 55 minutes from Newport to parking a little slow the one time I tried the peak journey.

But that’s exactly when you need to compare the two options.

 

[The exile]

Indeed. Getting to Bristol Parkway by car in the rush hour can be very slow going. I hadn't realised the cost of parking there now - that's quite a disincentive for a regular commuter.

If you’re using Bristol Parkway as a railhead for central Bristol coming from South Wales - why not use Portway P&R instead - AFAIK it’s free. If you’re going to London, I doubt the cost of parking is much of a disincentive.

 

[jayah]

The 1800 space car park is presumably for the Business Park and the Railway Station?

As lovley as building a Business Park next to a railway station is, it’s fanciful to imagine that everyone will travel to/from it by rail.

It is window dressing.
The business park is out of town, car dependent, sprawl, a sizeable greenfield land grab, cannibalising the city centre, with a railway station added purely for a bit of greenwashing. Good on them for calling it out.

 

[Last Hurrah]

To summarise -:
April ‘22 : Cardiff Council approved the plans
- Welsh Government then called in the plans
July ‘23 : Planning Enquiry to see if plans complied with rules to protect the Environment
September ‘23 : Planning Inspector submitted Report
October ‘23 : Change in Welsh Government planning policy which “merited” looking again at the plans
January ‘24 : Planning Hearing

Do we know if/when Planning Inspector submitted his report ?

March ‘24 : Ken Skates (former Transport Minister 2017-2021) replaced Lee Waters as Transport Minister

How long does TM need to “consider” the report to make a decision

 

[The exile]

To summarise -:
April ‘22 : Cardiff Council approved the plans
- Welsh Government then called in the plans
July ‘23 : Planning Enquiry to see if plans complied with rules to protect the Environment
September ‘23 : Planning Inspector submitted Report
October ‘23 : Change in Welsh Government planning policy which “merited” looking again at the plans
January ‘24 : Planning Hearing

Do we know if/when Planning Inspector submitted his report ?

March ‘24 : Ken Skates (former Transport Minister 2017-2021) replaced Lee Waters as Transport Minister

How long does TM need to “consider” the report to make a decision

Don’t know the answer - but it seems comparable with what’s (not) going on just over the Severn in Portishead.

 

[Dr Day]

Don’t know the answer - but it seems comparable with what’s (not) going on just over the Severn in Portishead.

I thought Cardiff Parkway was being funded by a developer whereas Portishead is being funded by central and local government? But clearly both have had extensive planning issues, which is still only part of the process to actually getting something built and getting trains to stop there.

 

[The exile]

I thought Cardiff Parkway was being funded by a developer whereas Portishead is being funded by central and local government? But clearly both have had extensive planning issues, which is still only part of the process to actually getting something built and getting trains to stop there.

The point being made was the length of time public authorities are taking to make decisions, much of the content of which seems to replicate what has already been approved.

 

[Dr Day]

The point being made was the length of time public authorities are taking to make decisions, much of the content of which seems to replicate what has already been approved.

Indeed, but saying ‘we will allow you to build a station if you want to (with your own money)’ and ‘we are going to provide £200m and agree to subsidise a train service’ are slightly different things.

 

[Bob Price]

Exactly, it takes years to get a station open these days. Look at Portway Park and Ride and Reading Green Park. It's easy to announce a station, much harder to build.

 

[CardiffKid]

Slight update from Welsh FMQs on Tuesday...

Vaughan Gething
Will the First Minister make a statement on the proposed Cardiff Parkway development in St Mellons?

First Minister
The Cardiff parkway planning application is under active consideration and a decision will be issued in due course.

Vaughan Gething
Thank you for the reply. I welcome what you have said repeatedly, as First Minister, about the need to grow the economy. Cardiff parkway is a transport and economic development proposal in the east of my constituency. This proposal is endorsed in the Burns report; has a joint section 106 agreement; again endorsed by Natural Resources Wales on environmental mitigation; and it is privately funded, with the Welsh Government as a minority joint venture partner. We all understand the transport budget does not have the spare capital to deliver this proposal.

Cardiff Council approved the planning proposal in April 2022. It was called in by Welsh Ministers in November 2022. Two planning inspectorate inquiries have now taken place, in September 2023 and February 2024. Can the First Minister give us an update on which Minister will now determine this matter? And when can we expect a decision on whether this proposal will be approved?

First Minister
Well, thanks very much. It's obviously not appropriate for me to comment on a live planning case, but what I can tell you is that now that my new Cabinet's in place, a Cabinet Secretary will be allocated to the case in the next week, so that they can be working towards a decision on this matter. But I can't provide any further comment on the merits of this proposal, in order to avoid prejudicing the final decision.

Joel James
First Minister, as we've just heard, even though Cardiff parkway has been privately funded, there's an intention that the proposed Cardiff Crossrail development will eventually connect to it, which is being built by Cardiff Council with the help of Transport for Wales. However, as you will know, Transport for Wales made a loss of nearly £300 million last year and required additional funding from this Government of about £125 million. Its flagship south Wales metro project is also currently £260 million over budget. I think it would be safe to say that public confidence in Transport for Wales is at an all-time low, especially where I come from, but I would be interested to know, First Minister, if an assessment has been made of the actual likelihood of Cardiff Crossrail linking up with Cardiff parkway, and what impact it would have on the parkway development, should it fail to do so. Thank you.

First Minister
Thanks. Again, I think it's important for me not to be drawn into any planning issues, but the Cardiff parkway proposal is for a new station at St Mellons. I don't accept your proposition that Transport for Wales is not performing well. In fact, it's the best performing rail service in Wales. Of course, what we do know is that we have invested vast sums of money, and over the next few months, you will see significant new investment going into and transforming the rail services in Wales.

Lee Waters
Thank you, First Minister. Putting aside the planning issues, this project—Cardiff parkway—was initially proposed to be entirely led by the private sector, and a new railway station funded by the private sector. My understanding is that the last costs were at £120 million. That's before COVID, so we anticipate that that will be significantly more. Is it still the Welsh Government's understanding that those costs will entirely be met by the private developers, and if not, where would that gap funding come from? And could she also confirm whether or not Transport for Wales have looked at alternative railway station models? The four-line mainline model put forward by the developers is arguably over the top, and a local walk-up station, like the one being developed up the railway line at Magor, is arguably more appropriate. Is Transport for Wales actively developing that proposal so that the people of east Cardiff can have a railway option regardless of whether this proposal goes through?

First Minister
Thanks very much. Well, I'm certainly not making any economic commitments to this programme. Our budget is very stretched, and we have to work out exactly what the priorities are. Speaking more generally about transport in the area, Transport for Wales are carrying out work to develop new railway stations east of Cardiff that have the potential to enable thousands of journeys by public transport. These stations would be able to make use of the planned enhancements of the south Wales main line relief line, which was recommended by Lord Burns. Since he made those recommendations in 2021, the Welsh Government has invested to develop the proposal through Transport for Wales, along with a £2.7 million investment by the UK Government. But what I can tell you is the massive difference in terms of co-operation between the Welsh Government and the UK Government since Labour has come to power. I know that Ken Skates has had significant and constant discussions with the Minister responsible, the relationship has transformed, and they understand that there needs to be more investment in terms of rail infrastructure in Wales.

Plenary 17/09/2024 - Welsh Parliament

The Welsh Parliament is the democratically elected body that represents the interests of Wales and its people.

record.senedd.wales

 

[Meerkat]

I don't accept your proposition that Transport for Wales is not performing well. In fact, it's the best performing rail service in Wales.

That made me chortle.
I‘m not ugly - I’m the most handsome man in my living room!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

That made me chortle.
I‘m not ugly - I’m the most handsome man in my living room!

Actually quite a few TOCs operate in Wales. As well as TfW, there's Avanti, GWR and Cross Country. The quote is right. Of the four, TfW is the best performing.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that our forum rules do require, when referring to anything you read/heard from an external source, the following please:

• A hyperlink to the source (if at all possible; if there is absolutely no hyperlink available, then details of the source can suffice)
• A quote from the source, which must be enclosed in quote tags (using the quote button within the formatting tools on the forum software; note that quotation marks aren't sufficient)
• Some unique content, in the form of a relevant comment of your own

Thanks

 

[Last Hurrah]

Another couple of months have passed and still no decision . .

 

[Thechopperguy]

Well thank goodness Wentloog Freightliner Terminal was built before all this nonsense blew-up!

That's not as busy as it could be either

Exactly. It was always absurd to imagine that a few stations on the main line would remove the need for the M4 relief road.

I believe the plan is for 3 stations between Cardiff & Newport - that's all well and good. However every TOC has a train plan which basically says we will run x amount of trains and stop them at x amount of stations. Both train plans from Great Western and TfW are currently full, so as it stands the stations may be built but no trains can actually stop

 

[Smwrff]

I have a radical idea.... Update the TOC Plan!!

 

[Thechopperguy]

I have a radical idea.... Update the TOC Plan!!

Too much like common sense for the railways these days

 

[Elecman]

New station to be built under the auspices of aTfW and which TOC operate services that will pass the new srstion(TfL) so I don’t think there will be a problem with them being instructed to stop there

 

[Smwrff]

To be clear - Cardiff Parkway is bring promoted by private sector - it is only the 'Metro East' stations that are being promoted by TfW. However, it is inconceivable that TfW would then initiate new services from Cardiff to Bristol TM and from Maesteg to Cheltenham that stopped only at its 5 new stations but not at Cardiff Parkway.
Similarly TfW will want its Ebbw line services stopping there.

The only service operators that will need to be persuaded to stop there are the mainline services operated by GWR, Crosscountry, etc. I think TfW will probably stop its Marches services here though.

ps - a note for the thread title - Cardiff East (at Newport Rd/Rover Way) and Cardiff Parway (at St Mellons) are two separate stations

 

[CardiffKid]

Station approval delay indefensible - council leader​

Delays in approving a new mainline station into Cardiff have been described as "inexplicable" and "indefensible" by the city's council leader.

Cardiff's Labour council granted planning permission for Cardiff Parkway station and business park in St Mellons in April 2022, with the decision called in for a Welsh government review by that October.

In a letter to First Minister Eluned Morgan, the council's leader Huw Thomas said the community had been left in "limbo".

The Welsh government said its consultation was ongoing and First Minister Eluned Morgan said she will make a decision about the project "as soon as possible".

Cardiff Parkway would bring a mainline station to the St Mellons area of eastern Cardiff, with developers also proposing to build a business park alongside.

Campaigners had questioned the scale of the business park, which they claimed could put local biodiversity at risk.

Asked about the delay in December in the Senedd, the first minister agreed the application "had taken far too long" and hoped to make a decision "in the next few weeks".

But a further exercise by the government's planning department to seek reassurances about the building of the railway station means a final decision has been delayed again.

In his letter to the first minister, which was first reported by media website BusinessLive, Thomas said: "The near three-year delay this project has endured is as inexplicable as it is indefensible.

"It is an affront to local decision-making; it has left a poor and marginalised community in limbo; it flies in the face of ambitions to grow the economy, and it portrays Wales in an extremely unfavourable light to would-be investors.

"You have a historic opportunity to right this wrong and to set a new direction which is bold and ambitious. I would urge you to seize the moment."

Thomas urged Morgan to announce her decision before the end of January and called for the project to be "front and centre" of a planned investment summit being organised by the Welsh government later this year.

Cardiff Parkway Developments, which is overseeing the project, hopes to build a four platform railway station and a business park.

Its original agreement with Cardiff council means the railway station must be built during the first phase of construction.

However, the Welsh government's planning team has sought further reassurances that this remains the case.

The Welsh government has a minority stake in the organisation, with Investec and the Roberts family.

A government spokesperson said: "Consultation is ongoing with organisations and individuals about the development.

"A decision will be made following consideration of the representations received."

In a statement to BBC Wales the Roberts family said it expected the latest planning requirement to be "straightforward", with papers due to be filed by 15 January.

"We hope this means we're near the end of the long call-in process, and can move on to the next steps of preparing for delivery."

Cardiff Parkway planning delay indefensible, says council leader

Cardiff council's leader calls for the first minister to end uncertainty over the proposed station.

www.bbc.com

 

[CapitalStar378]

Completely agree with Huw Thomas, I can't imagine there is any good reason for this to be delayed for so long. This is a huge project for east Cardiff and south Wales.

There's a danger that the costs will have risen so much in the interim that the developer will no longer be willing to build the station, even if Eluned Morgan gives a thumbs up in a few weeks.

 

[Cdiff]

Welsh government has approved planning for Cardiff Parkway. Hopefully they’ll get it up and running fairly quickly.

 

[Snow1964]

BBC article on Welsh Government approval of Cardiff Parkway

The developers behind Cardiff Parkway had been waiting for a decision after the original planning application was called in for review by the Welsh government in October 2022.

Eluned Morgan confirmed that she was granting planning permission in a letter sent to Cardiff Parkway Developments, which is overseeing the project in the St Mellons area of the city.

Cardiff Parkway will include a railway station with four platforms and a business park.

Developers had hoped the staion would be operational by 2024, but the planning process was dogged by delays.

Plans were approved by Cardiff council in April 2022, but the broader national interest in the project led the Welsh government to review the application.

Cardiff Parkway station approved by Welsh government

The project had been delayed after ministers called in the planning decision in October 2022.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[anthony263]

About time

 

[Smwrff]

Two years delay in planning approval for no apparent changes. Pointless waste of time. This could have been reviewed in 2-4 weeks. This is everything that is wrong in planning processes