Carlisle Overnighter Ban

[Nick279]

yes thanks, good comment, anymore suggestions

 

[JoshW1992]

why not write a joint letter and edit it on these threads

In my opinion, this is a superb idea, which will bring everyone together as a group to express our opinions as a whole.

I havn't myself done an overnighter before, so I havn't really got room to talk, however, I'm just pointing out a great idea. :grin:

 

[djw1981]

Just don't send any clone letters as many organisations dismiss these straight away as being the work of pressure groups. The Station staff may also have survey figures of the number of people who actually did an overnight in 2007, and may use that as part of the basis of their decision, so all those who say 'I would if I could' but who haven't during the past years may be ignored.

 

[TheSlash]

I think you'd be better waiting to see if Snapper get's a response, before writing lots of letters, starting a petition or organising a sit in

 

[Snapper]

it seems strange that someone who works for the railways hates the very people who pay her wages, are you sure this is right??, if rail enthuisiasts are being victimised and harressed by this person then it needs to be taken to the next level, she may be the station manager, but we need to explain that we havent actually given her the station, she is a public servant working on our behalf and if this woman is prejudice against those with an interest in the business of rail travel, then I dont really feel she is fit and proper to act in a position as a custodian of our railway network.

No: She is not a public servant. She works for a rail company. Not the Civil service. And I suspect that more than a few of the enthusiasts who turn up there at night aren't even her companies (or indeed any railway companies) passengers either! stations are not public property, they are private property used by the public. And, as such she is more than within her rights.

No-one is being harassed. Being allowed on the station at night is a privilage - not a right. And like any privilege, it can be withdrawn.

 

[djw1981]

Well said.........I'm sure that if you just want to collect numbers etc there are some fairly good overbridges on the WCML through Carlisle. They are not so good for photo's (as the trains are going a little faster than through the station) but there's often enough light to get loco numbers, though if you want each wagon number that will be more difficult.

The station manager had been creating additional work for her staff at night, in them having to keep an ye on people on the station - since as a station user, the staff are responsible for your H&S in teh same way that you are, so they would be needing to check that no one was on the line etc periodically. So for the staff it now allows them to just get on with the job they are paid for, and access 20hours a day is not that poor.....

It is a shame that one person's actions have caused this to happen, and I hope they reflect upon this the next time they want to go onto a part of a station and are prevented.

The best way to run such a campaign (if indeed people feel that the situation needs to return to the previous statemay be through one of the rail enthusiast publications/magazines which have a more formal position and can collate opinion and sensible suggestions.

 

[Snapper]

I think you'd be better waiting to see if Snapper get's a response, before writing lots of letters, starting a petition or organising a sit in

Myself and a colleague from one of the major magazines are discussing this and other events with the TOCs at the moment. Hopefully I'll know more about the Carlisle situation on Monday.

 

[Nick279]

Oh dear me and I was just going to wish you good luck Snapper, here we go again

No: She is not a public servant. She works for a rail company. Not the Civil service. And I suspect that more than a few of the enthusiasts who turn up there at night aren't even her companies (or indeed any railway companies) passengers either! stations are not public property, they are private property used by the public. And, as such she is more than within her rights.

you have misunderstood my comments, she is a servant of the railway, the railway is a public service, therefore she is working for us the customer, be it to move our goods or carry us as passengers, why do you appear to have an issue with this??
No-one is being harassed. Being allowed on the station at night is a privilage - not a right. And like any privilege, it can be withdrawn.

If you visited some of the countries I`ve visited actually having a railway is a privillage, its all relative of course.

no matter, being allowed on the station at night strengthens security and supports the good work of rail servants, do you not understand the contribution enthusiasts make to the railways?? Network Rail apparently do, to repeat myself however, we live in difficult times, rail servants are not wise to alienate themselves from us, by the same rule of course we should be fully supportive towards them, we share the railway network and must all work together whenever possible, I hope this explains my views more fully.

However, since we are both (apparently) interested in the same thing, I feel this part of the debate is totally pointless, and although I find your comments strange, it matters little if you get the desired results, I do sincerely wish you the best in your efforts to solve this issue of course and I certainly don`t have your diplomacy, but then again I suspect I`m from a different generation anyway, but good luck.
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Well said.........I'm sure that if you just want to collect numbers etc there are some fairly good overbridges on the WCML through Carlisle. They are not so good for photo's (as the trains are going a little faster than through the station) but there's often enough light to get loco numbers, though if you want each wagon number that will be more difficult.

The station manager had been creating additional work for her staff at night, in them having to keep an ye on people on the station - since as a station user, the staff are responsible for your H&S in teh same way that you are, so they would be needing to check that no one was on the line etc periodically. So for the staff it now allows them to just get on with the job they are paid for, and access 20hours a day is not that poor.....

It is a shame that one person's actions have caused this to happen, and I hope they reflect upon this the next time they want to go onto a part of a station and are prevented.

The best way to run such a campaign (if indeed people feel that the situation needs to return to the previous statemay be through one of the rail enthusiast publications/magazines which have a more formal position and can collate opinion and sensible suggestions.

yes well balanced comments

 

[Snapper]

Railway staff 'alienate themselves' from us? - That turns the issue on its head - it was a letter of complaint from an enthusiast that started all this!

As for the staff 'not being wise' - why? what are we going to do - start boycotting stations or refuse to do what many don't anyway (travel by train)? The majority of enthusiasts are guests of the railways. And we shouldn't forget that. They have a job to do which can be difficult enough at times with the amount of passengers travelling - without us expecting special treatment just because we have a passing interest in the industry (and let us not forget - that's exactly what it is. If we want a playground we should be content with preserved railways).

My "generation" is closer to yours than you think. But I'm realistic about the modern day and age rather than assuming everything can and should be always the way it was.

Times change.

 

[O L Leigh]

Nick279: I can see the logic behind your thinking about railway staff being public servants and the public nature of the railway, but Snapper is right. The railways are no more a public space than Argos.

O L Leigh

 

[Nick279]

until we re-nationalise of course, how sad! Like Argos, I do hope we have a railway left to renationalise when we`ve all had enough. haha.

I thought we still subsidised certain sections of the railways though? is it not only a semi privavtised network, I`m a little out of touch?

 

[Snapper]

until we re-nationalise of course, how sad! Like Argos, I do hope we have a railway left to renationalise when we`ve all had enough. haha.

I thought we still subsidised certain sections of the railways though? is it not only a semi privavtised network, I`m a little out of touch?

The fact that it is subsidised doesn't affect it's status. Network Rail is in effect a private company (albeit on a not for profit basis) and the owner of the railways. The TOC's are franchises and wholly private. As has been said, the fact that the railways are used by the public doesn't make them public land, any more than a public house is public property (The landlord can still tell you to slink your hook!)

As for renationalisation. Forget it: It isn't going to happen. No political party has it on their agenda.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Yes a pub landlord can kick you out for no reason, even if you were behaving youreslf or buying drinks but is very unlikley to do that as it would loose business, but it woud have to be something like that certain person who wrote the letter.

So what happens if you are trying to do an overnighter and you have a return to carlisle Saver TRN or some rover like an ALR? surely you have 'business' with the railway as you have a valid ticket?

 

[Nick279]

The fact that it is subsidised doesn't affect it's status. Network Rail is in effect a private company (albeit on a not for profit basis) and the owner of the railways. The TOC's are franchises and wholly private. As has been said, the fact that the railways are used by the public doesn't make them public land, any more than a public house is public property (The landlord can still tell you to slink your hook!)

not quite the same is it, public houses are closing all around at the moment, I dont think we would allow our railways to close down though, so how much of a bad job the private sector do with them, hardly a comparison though, but I understand what you are saying of course, but of even in the days of nationatislation you wouldnt allow the public to walk all over the place, there must always be restricted areas otherwise you couldnt possibly run a railways, and that applied to all industry prior to deregularisation.

As for renationalisation. Forget it: It isn't going to happen. No political party has it on their agenda.

Sadly I` probably wont be around to say I told you so!!:cry:

 

[Snapper]

Yes a pub landlord can kick you out for no reason, even if you were behaving youreslf or buying drinks but is very unlikley to do that as it would loose business, but it woud have to be something like that certain person who wrote the letter.

So what happens if you are trying to do an overnighter and you have a return to carlisle Saver TRN or some rover like an ALR? surely you have 'business' with the railway as you have a valid ticket?

But you only have business during the hours of business.

 

[Nick279]

apologies Snapper, i missed this one

Railway staff 'alienate themselves' from us? - That turns the issue on its head - it was a letter of complaint from an enthusiast that started all this!

I`m not really sure of the nature of the letter but from what you tell me I personally find it crazy that an enthusiast, after being allowed to stay behind on the station at night, chose to complain, that really was stupidity and yes I can certainly understand this member of staffs attitude, but it is still alienation even if justafiably so in this instance, two wrongs however dont make a right, in fact they start wars and this is of course Snapper were we are all hoping your diplomatic approach comes in.

haha, As for the staff 'not being wise' - why? what are we going to do - start boycotting stations or refuse to do what many don't anyway (travel by train)? The majority of enthusiasts are guests of the railways. And we shouldn't forget that. They have a job to do which can be difficult enough at times with the amount of passengers travelling - without us expecting special treatment just because we have a passing interest in the industry (and let us not forget - that's exactly what it is. If we want a playground we should be content with preserved railways).

Oh that guest word again, I hope the railways realise they are guests to pitance of a wage when I make non-essential journeys
Oi young man our preserved railways are not playgrounds, how dare you!!.
My "generation" is closer to yours than you think. But I'm realistic about the modern day and age rather than assuming everything can and should be always the way it was.

Times change.

yes they do, but we should still try to maintain standards of course, but sometimes I feel we are fighting a losing battle, but fortunately many of us still fight to preserve them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes a pub landlord can kick you out for no reason, even if you were behaving youreslf or buying drinks but is very unlikley to do that as it would loose business, but it woud have to be something like that certain person who wrote the letter.

"So what happens if you are trying to do an overnighter and you have a return to carlisle Saver TRN or some rover like an ALR? surely you have 'business' with the railway as you have a valid ticket?"

But you only have business during the hours of business.

thats the railways buisness hours and not yours of course, but yes sadly that appears so although your business is of course a non essential rail travel to spend time in a speciafic location, if the rail network is now unable to satisfy your business needs, then you simply take your business away from them and like many of us, invest your hard earned cash in the preservation movement. It would be interesting to try to calculate how much the enthusiast market is actually worth, but it would of course be very difficult to measure.

 

[metrocammel]

Does Carlisle station 'officially' close, or is it this over-zealous woman trying to lay her own authority down?
Most stations advertise that they close at a particular time, ie, Edinburgh Waverley has (or at least used to have a sign indicating the time it closes- as does Huddersfield- which also opens during the night 15 mins before airport trains). Surely, changing what effectively is 'company policy' to keep the station open doesn't come under the jurisdiction of a low-level manager? After all, a decision like that could possible effect Virgin's revenue (albeit a small amount) by alienating passengers/ potential passengers who happen to be spotters.

But you only have business during the hours of business.

That is true, however, if I was to buy a ticket, booking me on a train that gave me a very long 'fester' at Carlisle (ie, booking me on a late train, and then onto an early train in the morning), would they turf me off the station? Fair enough, a station that advertises as closing, but historically Carlisle (same with Crewe afaik) has never shut. As I say, I would have perfectly legitmate business on the railway- and simply waiting for my booked onward connection...
I would have suggested a platform ticket, though they would only be useful for an hour after purchase.

Anyway, I also hope this gets sorted. Hanging around, spotting on station platforms has never really appealed to me, but I know it floats some peoples' boats, and good on you!

 

[Nick279]

I do a bit of European travel and must say I find the Europeans a little more enthusiast friendly that the UK, however I was travelling in from Strasbourg a few years ago and missed my Eurostar connect back to the UK, I got back to Gare de Nord just before midnight and tried to get some sleep on one of the benches, around 2 am however I was woked up by a security guard who was closing the station and despite having a ticket from germany through to waterloo I was still asked to leave, but thats France of course. Britain however is losing it big time when you consider the only place you can now smoke in a pub is in a muslim country, we appear to be losing all the freedoms our forefathers gave their lives for, we are on the edge of a very slippery slope.

 

[87015]

Britain however is losing it big time when you consider the only place you can now smoke in a pub is in a muslim country, we appear to be losing all the freedoms our forefathers gave their lives for, we are on the edge of a very slippery slope.

What??? How is smoking in pubs anything to do with over-zealous/anti-enthusiast/jobsworth/perfect (delete as appropriate on opinion) station staff???!

 

[Snapper]

Britain however is losing it big time when you consider the only place you can now smoke in a pub is in a muslim country, we appear to be losing all the freedoms our forefathers gave their lives for, we are on the edge of a very slippery slope.

Apart from the fact that this is completely untrue. What the hell has it got to do with this discussion?

 

[Metroland]

Freedom to smoke means lack of freedom to breath clean air for non smokers.

That said, I think the pub trade should have been allowed to adopt 'smoking' rooms.

With all freedom, comes responsibility. If a minority of Rail enthusiasts abuse their privileges, then expect them to be taken away, it's really as simple as that.

In general, the greatest myth these days has been the notion that because we have freedom to do X, 'anything goes'. That is, and never was the deal. The reason is simply that other people's 'freedoms' impinge of the freedoms and well being of others if abused - like the smoking example. There are no rights without responsibility.

 

[Nick279]

Apart from the fact that this is completely untrue. What the hell has it got to do with this discussion?

oh for god sake, I give up with you, read between the lines cant you, anyway I`ve lost patience with you now snapper I`m sure you are now just arguing for the sake of it, look lad, see how you go on a carlisle and if you have no joy, then I`ll give it a go OK.
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What??? How is smoking in pubs anything to do with over-zealous/anti-enthusiast/jobsworth/perfect (delete as appropriate on opinion) station staff???!

its about change which our friend Snapper brought into these threads and the erosion of freedoms of course, think outside the box DOH!!
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Snapper you have mail
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Freedom to smoke means lack of freedom to breath clean air for non smokers.

what absolute rubbish, do you really have any idea about the quality of air you are breathing in?

That said, I think the pub trade should have been allowed to adopt 'smoking' rooms.

well possibly, I dont smoke personally but since the smoking ban I`ve noticed the littler problems outside public houses appears to have increased

With all freedom, comes responsibility. If a minority of Rail enthusiasts abuse their privileges, then expect them to be taken away, it's really as simple as that.

No its not as simple as that, it works both ways, end of story. Its not one sided , respect breeds respect OK.
In general, the greatest myth these days has been the notion that because we have freedom to do X, 'anything goes'. That is, and never was the deal. The reason is simply that other people's 'freedoms' impinge of the freedoms and well being of others if abused - like the smoking example. There are no rights without responsibility.

excellent point, I`m getting through at last

 

[Snapper]

oh for god sake, I give up with you, read between the lines cant you, anyway I`ve lost patience with you now snapper I`m sure you are now just arguing for the sake of it,

"Read between the lines" ? As in accept untruths for the sake of argument? - No thanks.

People get fed enough of this sort of stuff and are then expected to swallow it uncritically, which is why it needs challenging. Funnily enough the people who try and promote this sort of rubbish often get tetchy when its pointed out that's what they're peddling.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does Carlisle station 'officially' close, or is it this over-zealous woman trying to lay her own authority down?

Station opening hours for Carlisle aren't mentioned on NRES:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/car/details.html

But in answer to the question about authority: The person concerned does have that power.

 

[Nick279]

Snapper, or whatever you chose to call yourself, you have my contact details if you wish to take thngs any further phone me, meet up whatever, but I think this thread is now going beyond the bounds of reasonable debate and would suggest for the benefit of the site and other members we discuss this in private, I`m sorry but I feel some of your posts are not really constructive anymore.

Nick Melling
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
"People get fed enough of this sort of stuff and are then expected to swallow it uncritically, which is why it needs challenging. Funnily enough the people who try and promote this sort of rubbish often get tetchy when its pointed out that's what they're peddling."

ah at last we agree on something, well done snapper!

 

[adambro]

...and there was me thinking Snapper was being perfectly reasonable...

 

[Nick279]

haha yeah me too!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Does Carlisle station 'officially' close, or is it this over-zealous woman trying to lay her own authority down?

The other side of "authority" is, of course, "responsibility". As many have pointed out in other threads, the railways are a dangerous place. And, as accidents will always happen, even if unrelated to train movements, then who would we all look to as the person responsible for the safety of people on the station? Yup, straight off to the SMC.

And in the case of Carlise, if staff have turned a blind eye to people overnight when there's been no special risk, I bet they were still mindful that some sort of incident could break-out - with no proper response available they would have been quite anxious for years, and rightly so. What would their insurers say if there was a claim from someone on station out-of-hours? What would the police response be? And statistically, something serious IS going to happen - maybe even a heart attack.

You can imagine what the press would do :- Woman dies on station platform - outrageous - left to die because no staff available to help - no-one with first aid skills on duty - irresponsible station staff/TOC.

If I want to be on a station for work (purposes other than travel) then I produce my insurance, provide a Method Statement agreed with their Safety Officer, sign a declaration form making myself responsible, specify where I will be, when, and why, and then at the SM's discretion, I get a permit to work. Only those documents & Permit relieves management and the Company from part of the liability, tho they still have the right to stop me doing somethin that had been agreed.

All these preacutions are particularly serious in stations with live OHLE.

Now I don't know what "authority" Carlisle Station mangement have, but I am sure that their "responsibility" will cover all incidents on the premises, and if that was me, and I saw a real threat to safety (even if its knowt to do with enthusiasts but, say, drunks leaving the clubs), and I considered that I didn't have the staff, training, or other resources, then I would be looking at closing the doors if there's no business need to stay open. Wouldn't you?

 

[Nick279]

good comments and yes I certainly would, despite my views on the nanny state, some poor sod has to take over all responsibility, and if it is for the reasons stated above Dave, then this would be perfectly acceptable of course.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you had an Argos gift voucher could you stay in Argos all night?

Most stations are the property of Network Rail and therefore not public land. There are exceptions but not many. The TOCs/Network Rail only have to provide you access to perform the business for which you are there, so if you had a saver ticket to, say, Euston, they would only have to provide you access in time to catch your train or to depart from it. Having a ticket doesn't give you the right to hang around all night, Infact if they had signs up saying 'no loitering' they could have you removed under the railway byelaws, even if you hold a ticket.

 

[Nick279]

"If you had an Argos gift voucher could you stay in Argos all night?"

haha I`ll have to try that!

Of course you can`t really compair argus with a national public transport system, Argos are free to close down stores whenever they wish, the people who presently control the railways can`t, we still excercise some level of control thankfully.
It was never public land when it was controlled by BR of course, how can it be, you need some level of control to operate, you can`t simply have people going where ever they want whenever they want, you must have some form of control. Bylaws of course are neccessary like to laws of the land, to help excercise this control it doesnt mean they are right of course and they are evolving all the time. They are however the best we presently have and as reasonable people we must abide by them, of course if we feel they are not right, then we must challenge them, thankfully we live in a democracy which allows this process. It wasnt that long ago thats we burned witches at the stake, until of course some of us realised maybe the law wasnt quite right in that respect and we changed it.