Castle Cary: usage down, interchange up (dramatically)

[endecotp]

Bournemouth larger than Plymouth???? Are you sure about that?

I suspect that the whole Bournemouth & Poole conurbation is similar-sized or larger than Plymouth.

 

[HowardGWR]

I suspect that the whole Bournemouth & Poole conurbation is similar-sized or larger than Plymouth.

The triumvirate towns of those plus Christchuch is a very large urban population indeed, plus one should also include in the catchment, Wimborne, Ferndown and and other (effectively) suburbs. I would guesstimate approaching a million people.

Of course, it was the transfer of Christchurch and Bournemouth to Dorset, back along, that ended with those places being in the SW Region. Most true Dorset people only accept Poole as really being in Dorset, of the three unitary bodies.

More important than all that is the potential traffic for a decent service to Taunton, Exeter and Plymouth. A direct service to the biggest city (and conurbation) - Bristol - from Bournemouth, would not go amiss either. I seem to remember there was one once........

So Castle Cary route could be better advertised and promoted.

 

[dgl]

Being driven through the area of Bomo/Poole/Wimborne/Ringwood etc. many times you get to realise just how big it is and it's a bit of a shame that there is no services to/from the south west, some way of getting trains from Bournemouth to Yeovil junction at least would be brilliant but currently would involve having to go all the way back to Upwey/Weymouth (Weymouth if the tracks are no bi-di) at least to change ends unless they are allowed to do this outside of a station at Dorchester junction (track layout and signalling permitting).

 

[HowardGWR]

Being driven through the area of Bomo/Poole/Wimborne/Ringwood etc. many times you get to realise just how big it is and it's a bit of a shame that there is no services to/from the south west, some way of getting trains from Bournemouth to Yeovil junction at least would be brilliant but currently would involve having to go all the way back to Upwey/Weymouth (Weymouth if the tracks are no bi-di) at least to change ends unless they are allowed to do this outside of a station at Dorchester junction (track layout and signalling permitting).

Yes that's true, but pragmatically, a slick series of interchanges, either via the Yeovil Junction/Pen mill connection, or at Castle Cary, would do a better job than those available now, at least for an interim solution. Regarding Yeovil, Pen Mill is no more central than Junction is, as a destination, and the interchange involves a bus or possible extra train journey. Both Upwey and Castle Cary are not equipped with step free and covered transfer, although CLC at least offers a platform interchange if travelling west.

The shortest route from Bournemouth to Exeter without changing would need a reversal at Yeovil Pen Mill or the same at Castle Cary for Taunton. The latter would offer possible change onto services via Westbury.

This is not the Infrastructure thread but clearly, a rebuild of the south to west chord at Yeovil Junction would enable a very useful service to the west from the Bournemouth area.

 

[paul1609]

Ive always thought that a short Yeovil Junction low Level Platform on the Weymouth Line with a connecting footpath perhaps with a golf cart for people requiring assistance would be an adequate solution. Its at most 600 metres apart, less than the links at some Underground Station. Its okay saying that there is no direct rail connection between Bournemouth and Plymouth but in truth these 2 conurbations are about 125 miles apart (by road, 152 by rail via yeovil junction) with little in the way of economic connection. Im not really convinced that there is very much in the way of latent demand Plymouth is further away from Bournemouth than Waterloo by some margin.

 

[Taunton]

Its okay saying that there is no direct rail connection between Bournemouth and Plymouth but in truth these 2 conurbations are about 125 miles apart (by road, 152 by rail via yeovil junction) with little in the way of economic connection. Im not really convinced that there is very much in the way of latent demand.

The more significant demand in this corridor was always between Plymouth and Portsmouth, the two major naval centres. That also has long been a nuisance journey by rail, at least two changes and sometimes more

 

[Thebaz]

This is why completing the chord from the Weymouth line to the LSWR line at Yeovil Junction

Is that actually 'a thing' or is it one of those mooted suggestions that's been thrown around for donkey's years? Just wondering.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Hook (Hampshire) has a population of about double (circa 8,400) yet as its train station has over three times the number of passengers at circa 823,500.

98 journeys per head of population - pretty good. I think Charlbury beats even that: population 2,830, passengers 326,000, so 115 journeys each.

 

[stanley T]

Surely there must be more latent demand on the Heart of Wessex line to get to the Bournemouth conurbation than to Weymouth. So how about reversing trains just south of Dorchester and sending them to Bournemouth, and passengers for Weymouth could change at Dorchester South. Indeed you could close Dorchester West.

 

[HowardGWR]

Is that actually 'a thing' or is it one of those mooted suggestions that's been thrown around for donkey's years? Just wondering.

Well, it has been in Dorset County Council's Local Transport Plan for a decade or more, but with no suggestion of how it could be paid for and no suggestion that DCC would ever bother itself to lobby for funding. It regards anything other than for the benefit of motorists, as being totally outside its possibility of control or sphere of interest.

I imagine you are aware that the formation is already there, although joining the lines would rather upset the enthusiasts at the steam centre there.

 

[backontrack]

Surely there must be more latent demand on the Heart of Wessex line to get to the Bournemouth conurbation than to Weymouth. So how about reversing trains just south of Dorchester and sending them to Bournemouth, and passengers for Weymouth could change at Dorchester South. Indeed you could close Dorchester West.

Maybe, you could construct a curve?

Or, more daringly, open a line linking Salisbury with Christchurch through Fordingbridge and Ringwood, and run services from Bournemouth to Bristol via Salisbury and Westbury.

 

[stanley T]

Maybe, you could construct a curve?

Scheduled ancient monument in the way (Maumbury rings) not to mention city streets.

Or, more daringly, open a line linking Salisbury with Christchurch through Fordingbridge and Ringwood, and run services from Bournemouth to Bristol via Salisbury and Westbury.

Yeah right, very amusing. You can change at Southamption as of now.

What would improve connections on the Heart of Wessex for not much money is to reinstate the southward curve from Yeovil Jn.

 

[Taunton]

There's nothing actually at Yeovil Junction station, which is in the middle of fields, so no real impediment to shifting the Southern line station to new platforms by the bridge over the Western line. With the earthworks for the various abandoned proposals at that point, I would guess most of any required land for platforms on both lines is already in railway ownership, avoiding any track effort. Of course, nowadays all quotations for any station works seem to start at £10m per platform and go up from there.

The old Taunton to Yeovil line (which I must be one of the few here to have travelled on) never made any meaningful contribution to the Southern line here because, to the end, connections were impossible because of Yeovil's silly split across (at the time) three separate stations, and although there was a shuttle train between them its timings made it useless. I remember speaking to someone who in the early 1960s had to change THREE times in Yeovil to get from the Taunton line onto the Southern.

Regarding Castle Cary, that too is nowhere near the town, I can't see much scope for changing there. The national figures for passenger volumes do seem to be full of nonsenses, particularly from one year to the next as methodologies based on ticket sales change.

Surely there must be more latent demand on the Heart of Wessex line to get to the Bournemouth conurbation than to Weymouth

Curiously not. There is a long tradition for Bristol and Somerset to head to Weymouth, possibly of course dating back to rail service traditions, whereas Bournemouth is somewhere seen as remote. By road it is the same, the A37 road goes straight from Bristol to Weymouth whereas Bournemouth is a series of separate routes. You will find many contacts in Weymouth from Bristol etc, not at all the case in Bournemouth. And because both are holiday/retirement places, any substantial commercial contacts tend to be with either Southampton, or back to Bristol.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Being driven through the area of Bomo/Poole/Wimborne/Ringwood etc. many times you get to realise just how big it is and it's a bit of a shame that there is no services to/from the south west, some way of getting trains from Bournemouth to Yeovil junction at least would be brilliant but currently would involve having to go all the way back to Upwey/Weymouth (Weymouth if the tracks are no bi-di) at least to change ends unless they are allowed to do this outside of a station at Dorchester junction (track layout and signalling permitting).

Yes. It does make you wonder if anyone has ever thought of building a line north-west from Bournemouth, through somewhere like Blandford Forum, to connect to the LSW somewhere around Templ ........ oh, wait a minute.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ive always thought that a short Yeovil Junction low Level Platform on the Weymouth Line with a connecting footpath perhaps with a golf cart for people requiring assistance would be an adequate solution. Its at most 600 metres apart, less than the links at some Underground Station. ...

In theory, this is a great idea: in practice, well, there ought to be a word to describe the process that has happened - because (as Sir Humphrey might say):

"Minister, when it was possible, it wasn't needed, but now it's needed, it's not possible."

The logic being that, up to 1966, the S&D was sort of good enough to allow Bournemouth - Exeter and beyond access to the LSW at Templecombe. The piddly numbers of passengers from Weymouth needing access at Yeovil (or Castle Cary) could sort it out for themselves.

Had there been no S&D, and had the GWR and LSW been more cooperative, they could have built a wooden interchange platform on the Weymouth line for the price of a few packs of Woodbines and a couple of workers' free bank holiday returns to Weymouth.

But now such a platform is arguably needed, it's gonna take ten years, a 20-person newt and toad investigation-protection committee, and about GBP 10m just to get the planning permission.

"In other words, minister, with GWR themselves not too worried about the Heart of Wessex line service in the first place (barely any service improvements for decades), it's just too much bother and too expensive."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely there must be more latent demand on the Heart of Wessex line to get to the Bournemouth conurbation than to Weymouth. So how about reversing trains just south of Dorchester and sending them to Bournemouth, and passengers for Weymouth could change at Dorchester South. Indeed you could close Dorchester West.

Can trains actually do this currently? I mean, can they physically reverse south of the junction at Dorchester? Does the track and signalling layout allow for such a move?

Because if so, there would be no infrastructure investment needed to launch a pilot service, say two trains each way per day, Bournemouth - Dorchester - Yeovil PM - Jcn - Exeter.

 

[HowardGWR]

I've eyeballed the area near Maumbury Rings and you could get a curve through to West from South that avoids the Rings. Just knock down part of the old police station, construct a cut and cover tunnel and.........

I think two reversals from Bournemouth to Exeter is not making for a fast journey. Plus until the Salisbury to Exeter line is re-doubled, I don't see the capacity allowing it. A 158 could do the first bit from Bournemouth and then attach itself to a Waterloo to Exeter 159 at Yeovil Junction I suppose. Hmm. I suppose we are aware that SWT has shewn enterprise with its summer weekend service to Weymouth from Exeter, via Pen Mill, and reverse. I don't know whether that was a commercial success though.

 

[randyrippley]

The old Taunton to Yeovil line (which I must be one of the few here to have travelled on) never made any meaningful contribution to the Southern line here because, to the end, connections were impossible because of Yeovil's silly split across (at the time) three separate stations, and although there was a shuttle train between them its timings made it useless. I remember speaking to someone who in the early 1960s had to change THREE times in Yeovil to get from the Taunton line onto the Southern.

No, you're not the only one!
The truth is, it was easier to get to Pen Mill and Town stations from Montacute / Stoke / Martock by bus than it was by train. Montacute/Stoke/South Petherton were served by regular Hutchings & Cornelius Services to both stations, while Southern National served those villages and also Ilminster on service 6 to Town station (later Western National 466). Similarly Martock was served by Southern National. More buses than trains, better connections, bus stops in the village centre rather than on the outskirts, the buses had all the advantage. Even for Yeovil-Taunton while there was no "green" National Bus, but they ran a Royal Blue service with walk-on fares. (The direct National routes 200 and 264 came later as rail replacement services. The 200 via Montacute/Stoke/Martock/Langport only lasted a few years, the 264 route via Ilchester/Somerton/Langport still exists though under a different number)
Actually Town station was a good early example of an integrated transport interchange acting as terminus for both bus and rail services. Pulling it down crippled public transport in South Somerset, breaking the link between bus and rail. It does make you wonder whether if the link between BR and the National Bus Company hadn't been broken, then we would have had a more "joined up" attitude to transport during the Beeching era

 

[paul1609]

There's nothing actually at Yeovil Junction station, which is in the middle of fields, so no real impediment to shifting the Southern line station to new platforms by the bridge over the Western line. With the earthworks for the various abandoned proposals at that point, I would guess most of any required land for platforms on both lines is already in railway ownership, avoiding any track effort. Of course, nowadays all quotations for any station works seem to start at £10m per platform and go up from there.

Unfortunately if you moved the Southern platforms beyond the junction of the line down to Yeovil Pen Mill it would prevent diverted GWR services calling there, which would put in jeopardy the situation where GWR take over the line between Exeter and Yeovil Junction from SWT in the event of blockage on the Main line, most commonly the flooding north of Exeter. I don't think the West of England line has the capacity to take both services.

 

[randyrippley]

Unfortunately if you moved the Southern platforms beyond the junction of the line down to Yeovil Pen Mill it would prevent diverted GWR services calling there, which would put in jeopardy the situation where GWR take over the line between Exeter and Yeovil Junction from SWT in the event of blockage on the Main line, most commonly the flooding north of Exeter. I don't think the West of England line has the capacity to take both services.

Assuming new platforms on both routes, you could get round that by reopening the old Clifton Maybank goods curve. At the same time you could put track onto the never used Clifton Maybank south curve and so allow direct Dorchester-Exeter routing. (Note theres a historic argument that it should really be Maubank not Maybank but thats another story........)
Alternatively, why bother stopping Waterloo-Weymouth trains at the Junction? Instead put track direct through the long-closed east curve cutting from the Sherborne line to Pen Mill. That gives just one reverse at Pen Mill

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The more significant demand in this corridor was always between Plymouth and Portsmouth, the two major naval centres. That also has long been a nuisance journey by rail, at least two changes and sometimes more

Two changes? Surely you can do it fairly easily with just one change - either at Westbury or at Bristol Temple Meads? (Although I'll grant that the frequencies aren't that great doing it that way).

 

[The Ham]

The more significant demand in this corridor was always between Plymouth and Portsmouth, the two major naval centres. That also has long been a nuisance journey by rail, at least two changes and sometimes more

Which is why I think that the reopening of the Okehampton route with through running of services from Waterloo would be very beneficial. As it would fill up the SWT services as they are emptying out as they head west and will bring in quite a bit of money for each person traveling compared with just local services.

Especially as it would not just be Portsmouth that would benefit, as so would Southampton, Woking, Salisbury and to a lesser extent posts of London around Clapham Junction (mostly due to lower fares)

However that is quite off topic.

 

[embers25]

Which is why I think that the reopening of the Okehampton route with through running of services from Waterloo would be very beneficial. As it would fill up the SWT services as they are emptying out as they head west and will bring in quite a bit of money for each person traveling compared with just local services.

Especially as it would not just be Portsmouth that would benefit, as so would Southampton, Woking, Salisbury and to a lesser extent posts of London around Clapham Junction (mostly due to lower fares)

However that is quite off topic.

SWT services don't empty out after Yeovil any more since they went 3 coaches and are often very full from Axminster to Exeter and that will only get worse as all the new housing goes up. This high demand is why Devon Metro is supposed to reach Honiton in the first place.

 

[yorksrob]

SWT services don't empty out after Yeovil any more since they went 3 coaches and are often very full from Axminster to Exeter and that will only get worse as all the new housing goes up. This high demand is why Devon Metro is supposed to reach Honiton in the first place.

Going to three carriages west of Salisbury was an unsatisfactory development and should be reversed as soon as practically possible.

 

[The Ham]

SWT services don't empty out after Yeovil any more since they went 3 coaches and are often very full from Axminster to Exeter and that will only get worse as all the new housing goes up. This high demand is why Devon Metro is supposed to reach Honiton in the first place.

That is easy to fix, SWT just need more units to run those services, it boils down to:

- New DMU's
- New Bi-modals
- use of 185's to increase the number of units available *

* even if that means that some trains have more seats than they currently have even if it may not have many seats as they could have had if they were run by 15x's (I.e. a train service with 6 coaches formed of 2x159's being replaced by a train service run by 3x185's to then use the released 159's to strengthen other services, even though a train with 3x159's would have more seats than the one run by the same length 185's).

 

[Taunton]

The truth is, it was easier to get to Pen Mill and Town stations from Montacute / Stoke / Martock by bus than it was by train. Montacute/Stoke/South Petherton were served by regular Hutchings & Cornelius Services to both stations, while Southern National served those villages and also Ilminster on service 6 to Town station (later Western National 466). Similarly Martock was served by Southern National. More buses than trains, better connections, bus stops in the village centre rather than on the outskirts, the buses had all the advantage. Even for Yeovil-Taunton while there was no "green" National Bus, but they ran a Royal Blue service with walk-on fares.

I can remember the red H&C buses in Taunton as well, they used to turn round not at the bus station but in a pub car park on Staplegrove Road. It was a curious service because while they ran reasonable services from South Petherton (their base) to Taunton and to Yeovil, these were two separate operations and they didn't connect. They even started from different places in South Petherton (just a village) which you had to walk between. The railway was not the only organisation to have bizarre operations. Taunton always seemed completely isolated from Yeovil, the trains were commonly nearly empty all day as well.

Two changes? [Plymouth to Portsmouth journey] Surely you can do it fairly easily with just one change - either at Westbury or at Bristol Temple Meads? (Although I'll grant that the frequencies aren't that great doing it that way).

Very infrequent service on the London line stopping at Westbury, with no timed connections onward to the Salisbury line. I would think going by Bristol was so far out of the way as to not be an authorised route. Much more practical to change at Exeter and Salisbury.

 

[The Ham]

Very infrequent service on the London line stopping at Westbury, with no timed connections onward to the Salisbury line. I would think going by Bristol was so far out of the way as to not be an authorised route. Much more practical to change at Exeter and Salisbury.

Quick search on the train line would imply that it is a valid route to go via Bristol. Given all the options take a long time going the extra distance doesn't seem to make much difference to the time taken.

 

[randyrippley]

It was a curious service because while they ran reasonable services from South Petherton (their base) to Taunton and to Yeovil, these were two separate operations and they didn't connect. They even started from different places in South Petherton (just a village) which you had to walk between. The railway was not the only organisation to have bizarre operations.

I think that's because originally the Taunton service was run by Cornelius out of Barrington, and the Yeovil ones out of South Petherton by Hutchings. The two companies amalgamated in 1936 but they never seem to have updated the route permissions. They even had two separate stabling points in South Petherton: the garage at the top of the hill, and a piece of derelict wasteland in the village centre.
As to the red buses - they were red in the early 1960's but switched to maroon/cream starting ~1968. There was one AEC Regent / Willowbrook Expressway which was used as a DPV and so kept in crimson for occasional coaching work, but was also the mainstay on the Taunton route. Are you remembering that beast? Like riding in greenhouse

 

[70014IronDuke]

......

I think two reversals from Bournemouth to Exeter is not making for a fast journey.

Well, that is kind of obvious. But I was trying to get the best out of a bad situation (in terms of track layouts). Surely two reversals is better than

1) change at Weymouth or even worse, Upwey
2) change at Yeovil Pen Mill, get on bus, drive to Junction, alight bus, hoijk your gear across the bridge, wait and board train for Exeter.

SOME people are clearly using the Weymouth-[Pen Mill}-Castle Cary-[Westbury] line for access to somewhere else, because, according to ORR figures, 190 change at Castle Cary (CLC) every day of the year.

So, in order to answer my original question, I've taken look at the possibilities at CLC. (weekdays only)

On the Paddington line, there are eight up and eight down services per day. The main problem with this is, while in the UP direction they are spread throughout the day, in the down direction is very much bunched up into late afternoon-evening services. (Presumably it's all designed to suit London business traffic.)

In fact, six of the eight trains arrive after 16.41. (the 15.06 ex PAD)

There is only one train arriving in the morning, the 09.06 ex PAD, arriving 10.31. The next (and only other) train is at 12.41, the 11.06 ex PAD.

The Heart of Wessex also has eight GWR services each way daily, plus one SWT afternoon to Yeovil Jcn, and three the other way to Salisbury, all late afternoon-evening.

I suppose there may be some Weymouth - CLC - Pewsey/Newbury traffic, but frankly the possibilities are pretty limited, and for most of the day I'd expect any such traffic to go via Basingstoke and Reading. Same for the reverse direction.

That would imply that the majority of interchange traffic is [Bournemouth area] - Weymouth - CLC - Taunton/Exeter/Plymouth and v v.

Somewhat surprisingly, given the paucity of trains, some connections do work quite well (is that by luck or design, one wonders?)

eg in the UP,
1A77, 05.41 Penzance - PAD, arrive 09.41, feeds into the 10.00 departure to Weymouth.

1A87, 14.13 Paignton - PAD, arr 15.51, feeds into the 16.09 to Weymouth.

If anyone dare risk it,

1A82, 11.32 Paignton - PAD, arrives 13.06, with a fast run across the bridge, might feed into the 13.06 to Weymouth - seems a bit tight to me

In the Down

2V88, 08.53 ex Weymouth, arrives 09.54, giving a 36 min wait until the 10.32 to Plymouth,

2V90, 11.10 ex Weymouth, arrives 12.19, feeds nicely into the 12.40 to Plymouth.

(There must be others, later in the day, especially when CLC sees the batch of evening trains from London - i just haven't looked those up.)

Either way, by picking the right trains, it is possible, without enduring too long a wait, to use CLC as an interchange for Bournemouth-Weymough-CLC-West of England destinations.

A few more trains on both lines stopping at CLC would make it even easier, of course.

 

[randyrippley]

...........There was one AEC Regent / Willowbrook Expressway which was used as a DPV and so kept in crimson for occasional coaching work, but was also the mainstay on the Taunton route. Are you remembering that beast? Like riding in greenhouse

Sorry, AEC Reliance, not Regent

 

[randyrippley]

You're ignoring the obvious: commuter traffic into London from Yeovil and possibly Dorchester.
Which is the better option: a slow standing crowded 159 into Waterloo? Or a fast HST with a seat from Cary, with just a short section in a DMU?
I haven't looked at the current timetable, but in the past some Pen Mill-Paddington journeys were quicker than Junction-Waterloo timings. It wouldn't surprise me if the same applied to Dorchester-London journeys

 

[fizzwheel]

SOME people are clearly using the Weymouth-[Pen Mill}-Castle Cary-[Westbury] line for access to somewhere else, because, according to ORR figures, 190 change at Castle Cary (CLC) every day of the year.

I think I can help you out with a reason for a few of those.

I am regular user of Castle Cary. I commute from there to Reading each day.

I normally catch the 06:39 Departure from Castle Cary.

A few minutes before it arrives, the train from Weymouth arrives at around 06:33 but isnt scheduled to depart until 06:44 after my usual train. It calls at Bruton, Frome and Westbury.

What I have noticed is that there are a small number of regulars who

Get off the Weymouth train and onto the Paddington Train which departs 5 minutes earlier and goes straight to Westbury with no further stops.

They then get out again at Wesbury. Thus saving themselves some waiting time and reducing their Journey time from Castle Cary to Westbury.

Does that make sense how I have explained it ?