Castleton South Junction Renewal

[jonesy3001]

The 2040 transport strategy plan for greater manchester.

 

[The Planner]

The 2040 transport plan strategy for greater manchester.

"strategy"

 

[Snow1964]

Replace concrete deck with steel deck or decks built nearby, move them using modular transported, would be the likely solution? A few days work over a long bank holiday weekend perhaps?

The plan is now on Rochdale Council website (ref 23/00744)
It shows the existing concrete span is estimated at 1700t

Seems to be two options: one was box type girder, with second option (which seems to be type chosen) being new deck will be steel E type underbridge
Span (on skew) is 38.288m

Unless one or both of the abutments have failed, which would take a while longer.

plan seems to be to cut off a section at top of abutments and instal a new cill beam, but majority of abutments stay

They must be doing the bridges and other works before they electrify the line to rochdale in 2030.

The bridge plan actually makes reference to adding electrification masts to top flange which will be considered at later date

Its a post tensioned bridge apparently. Doesnt matter who built it, it appears that they dont degrade in a very linear manner.

the notes on right on the plans refer to various surveys that reveal the concrete has spalled, and the rusting steelwork tendons are exposed and appears to have been poorly grouted

The plans show

SCOPE OF WORK - OPTION 2
REMOVAL OF TRACK FORMATION AND PROVISION OF
TEMPORARY SUPPORT FOR SERVICES ACROSS THE STRUCTURE
REMOVAL OF EXISTING POST-TENSIONED CONCRETE DECK
DEMOLITION OF TOP SECTION OF ABUTMENTS /
WINGWALLS AND CENTRAL PIER TO DEMOLITION LINE
INSTALLATION OF PROPOSED CILL BEAMS
INSTALLATION OF BEARING ELEMENTS
INSTALLATION OF PROPOSED SUPERSTRUCTURE
INSTALLATION OF NEW TRACK FORMATION AND
REINSTATEMENT OF SERVICES

23/00744/PRA56 | Prior approval application (under Part 18) for the reconstruction of bridge 48A, M62 motorway bridge in Castleton | M62 Motorway B

publicaccess.rochdale.gov.uk

 

[slipdigby]

The 2040 transport strategy plan for greater manchester.

"strategy"

"Plan"

 

[The Planner]

"Plan"

Exactly, none of which is funded or signed off, its an aspiration.

 

[Mothball]

Here is a view of the bridge/junction, taken 10/09/2022 while waiting for a passing Scotrail 170.

 

[InOban]

Presumably it was built by the Motorway contractors to a spec from BR If it turns out that the contractors cut corners by, eg, using substandard concrete, then the rebuilding cost should come out of the Highways England budget. If it was built to spec, but that was inadequate, then NR will need to pay.

 

[snowball]

Presumably it was built by the Motorway contractors to a spec from BR If it turns out that the contractors cut corners by, eg, using substandard concrete, then the rebuilding cost should come out of the Highways England budget. If it was built to spec, but that was inadequate, then NR will need to pay.

As I understand it, underline bridges for road schemes are built in a separate contract from the road, with the railway, or people acting for the railway, as designer, employer of the contractor, and supervisor of the contract, even though the contractor is often the same as for the road, and even though construction is paid for by the road scheme. So I would have thought it's all the railway's responsibility.

Also I would have thought 50 years plus is far too long for legal arguments about liability for original defects.

 

[cin88]

As I've previously said, that bridge is absolutely knackered. There's rumours on the area that it'll be a 36 week job to get it replaced. Those rumours have been going on since early this year though and no one is really sure what's going on.

 

[The Planner]

As I've previously said, that bridge is absolutely knackered. There's rumours on the area that it'll be a 36 week job to get it replaced. Those rumours have been going on since early this year though and no one is really sure what's going on.

It will be based on whatever National Highways accept for M62 closures. It won't be 36 weeks of solid disruption, it will screw up any TRU access plans if it is. They won't stand for that, neither will Northern.

 

[cin88]

It will be based on whatever National Highways accept for M62 closures. It won't be 36 weeks of solid disruption, it will screw up any TRU access plans if it is. They won't stand for that, neither will Northern.

M62 closures are a sticking point, especially at the moment with the Bee Network expansion works causing havoc on the local roads (getting out of Castleton East Jn box is a nightmare). I can't imagine the local council will be too happy with sudden gridlock as everyone has to divert off to get over to the next junction in either direction, only to be confronted by the roadworks that are seemingly taking an eternity.

 

[swt_passenger]

As I understand it, underline bridges for road schemes are built in a separate contract from the road, with the railway, or people acting for the railway, as designer, employer of the contractor, and supervisor of the contract, even though the contractor is often the same as for the road, and even though construction is paid for by the road scheme. So I would have thought it's all the railway's responsibility.

Also I would have thought 50 years plus is far too long for legal arguments about liability for original defects.

It’s also confirmed in the planning application letter that NR were paid a lump sum to take over future maintenance responsibility: “Whilst the original agreement included split maintenance of the structure, Network Rail took a commuted sum in the 1970's for future maintenance, and therefore responsibility for the structure sits entirely with Network Rail…”

 

[zwk500]

It’s also confirmed in the planning application letter that NR were paid a lump sum to take over future maintenance responsibility: “Whilst the original agreement included split maintenance of the structure, Network Rail took a commuted sum in the 1970's for future maintenance, and therefore responsibility for the structure sits entirely with Network Rail…”

How was Network Rail, founded in 2004, able to take a commuted sum in the 1970s? One imagine British Rail would not have been overly keen to take on extra maintenance at that particular moment in time, so I wonder why they did so?

 

[Gathursty]

During the rebuild, would trains from Rochdale be allowed to serve Castleton or would everything just stop at Rochdale? Similar question for Mills Hill and Moston (RRB from Victoria?) too.

 

[zwk500]

During the rebuild, would trains from Rochdale be allowed to serve Castleton or would everything just stop at Rochdale?

From the track diagrams I can see, there's no way to reverse at Castleton without modified working and given the proximity to the bridge I think it's exceptionally unlikely they would do it.

Similar question for Mills Hill and Moston (RRB from Victoria?) too.

Mills Hill can't be served for the same reason, Moston could in theory be served with an empty shunt via Vitriol Works but at that point the cost of providing such a service goes through the roof for the number of people who might benefit.

RRB Victoria - Rochdale would be my guess.

 

[Mothball]

Mills Hill can't be served for the same reason, Moston could in theory be served with an empty shunt via Vitriol Works

The Vitriol Works crossover was taken out a few years back now.

 

[Topological]

Quick bit of route clearance / learning and terminate everything in Bury for the tram (Not a serious suggestion, but would allow serving Castleton)

Mills Hill and Moston can have a replacement bus from a temporary platform in Heywood (Gets even better)

Presumably there will be express Rochdale to Manchester bus and then stopping bus options.

 

[zwk500]

The Vitriol Works crossover was taken out a few years back now.

Fair enough, I was going off OTT.

 

[swt_passenger]

How was Network Rail, founded in 2004, able to take a commuted sum in the 1970s? One imagine British Rail would not have been overly keen to take on extra maintenance at that particular moment in time, so I wonder why they did so?

Oh I just assumed it would be a BR decision passed on to RT then NR. Probably a bit of a side issue though, I just copied what it said in the letter without considering the changes to the organisation over so many years.

 

[175001]

During the rebuild, would trains from Rochdale be allowed to serve Castleton or would everything just stop at Rochdale? Similar question for Mills Hill and Moston (RRB from Victoria?) too.

Potentially yes, as there is a main to main crossover opposite Castleton East Box.

 

[cin88]

Potentially yes, as there is a main to main crossover opposite Castleton East Box.

Not without putting a passenger train into a possession you wouldn't.

 

[175001]

But bridge is a good 1/4 like away from the main to main cross over. Plenty of room for a unit to turn back.

We all know they'll just terminate at Rochdale anyway

 

[Mothball]

The actual bridge "worksite" is, but the area around the crossover is the only place for plant to access the rail network, and any trains linked to the work (spoil, rail etc) will soon eat into that 1/4 mile.

 

[cin88]

The protecting signal on the Up for the future work is on the approach side of Castleton Station, you can't allow a passenger train past it regardless if there's a T3 on.

 

[Plethora]

I was on the M62 the other day driving under it and I thought it seemed to have cracks in it. I have now noticed there is a 20mph speed restriction over it.

Is there a noted issue and any plan for remediation? The route is important during the TPE upgrade process, so I'd have hoped it will get attended to quickly.

 

[The Planner]

I was on the M62 the other day driving under it and I thought it seemed to have cracks in it. I have now noticed there is a 20mph speed restriction over it.

Is there a noted issue and any plan for remediation? The route is important during the TPE upgrade process, so I'd have hoped it will get attended to quickly.

Bridge gets rebuilt at the end of Summer. 9 day blockade.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Bridge gets rebuilt at the end of Summer. 9 day blockade.

Interesting, thanks. I'd better get the dates checked, make sure I don't book any flights from Manchester at that time (admittedly unlikely if in the school holidays, which I assume it will be).

 

[The Planner]

Interesting, thanks. I'd better get the dates checked, make sure I don't book any flights from Manchester at that time (admittedly unlikely if in the school holidays, which I assume it will be).

Actually, double checking, its a 17 day block. 6th September to 24th September.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Actually, double checking, its a 17 day block. 6th September to 24th September.

Very much appreciated - that could well be an issue we would have to factor in.

 

[Starmill]

Oh I just assumed it would be a BR decision passed on to RT then NR. Probably a bit of a side issue though, I just copied what it said in the letter without considering the changes to the organisation over so many years.

Likely the payment represented many, many years of BR's then spend on the structure, so they viewed the sum as effectively free "borrowing" from the then highway authority. The cost of which funding is now being paid back, with inflation if course...